Post Archive
Region: Federation of Conservative Nations
Elaborate what you think needs be argued. If you express a cosmopolitan attitude that "modern" (a progressive expression) nations and cultures shouldn't be based off ethnic groups, don't be surprised if you're acknowledged for being globalist. Do you believe Israel shouldn't be a Jewish state?
Gagium
I dont think white is an ethnicity. Were talking about ethnic groups, right?
Now, go on and respond to the rest of the post, please. Are you a liar? Are you skewering your own definition of what you think a conservative is to suit yourself in this debate? Youve been throwing around globalist a lot against people who have expressed different opinions than you without substantiating those quite frankly lies.
Viridus, New Inglaterra
Were not talking about Israel, whatsboutism.
You claimed conservatives are those who conserve their culture. I said America and other modern nations are not based off of ethnic groups - Thats a literal fact. American culture isnt and I want to conserve it! And yet this makes me a globalist for...disagreeing with you?
You lied somewhere there. Or perhaps its ignorance in either your definition or attitude towards different branches of conservatism or western culture. I dont know.
EDIT: You know what? Google globalist for me. Now go read the definition, and explain how every person accused of being a globalist by you for disagreeing with your obvious correct opinions is one. Please do! And if you cannot debate properly and simply resort to calling anyone you dont agree with titles such as this on a regular basis - Why, maybe Id consider not debating at all.
Viridus, New Inglaterra
Did not Palestine exist? You mean the colony?
When was the country of Palestine founded and by who? What were its borders? What was its capital? What were its major cities? Name at least one "Palestinian leader" before Arafat. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the "Palestinian" monetary unit against the US dollar, Chinese yuan, British pound, etc, on that date. Since there is no such country of "Palestine" today, what caused its demise and when did it occur? Why did the "Palestinians" never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of the invading Arab states in the 1967 war?
Viridus, Gagium
What do you think the Founding Fathers thought? Why did they do that?
I think you need to calm down.
If you express what is literally a globalist, leftist view on nationhood and cultures you shouldn't surprised if someone acknowledges that. You're welcome at literally any point to express what you think conservatism is. You seem to think your own culture is worth preserving. Why?
Gagium
The influx of foreigners must, therefore, tend to produce a heterogeneous compound; to change and corrupt the national spirit; to complicate and confound public opinion; to introduce foreign propensities. In the composition of society, the harmony of the ingredients is all important, and whatever tends to a discordant intermixture must have an injurious tendency.
Alexander Hamilton
Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them.
Thomas Jefferson
Where was there ever a confederacy of republics, united as these states are... Or, in which, the people were so drawn together by religion, blood, language, manners and customs, undisturbed by former feuds or prejudices?
John Dickinson
Providence has been pleased to give us this one connected country to one united people -a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs
John Jay
-
And that's omitting the high key racist quotes.
Viridus, Gagium
You seem to think your own culture is worth preserving.
Then Im a conservative by your definition. Unless youre a liar or an amazingly ignorant hypocrite - Not to me, but to yourself... I see youre throwing out globalist and leftist against anyone you disagree with despite them obviously not being, though, so lets wrap this up. Theres a lot of people like me in this region that think nations arent based off of ethnic groups - Thats not globalist nor is it leftist. If you believe that it is, then I think you may want to consider finding another region that fits your ideology better...
You know. Theres a lot of people out there like you though, too, who think calling anyone they disagree with a globalist leftist is not wrong at all and indeed acceptable. Good luck finding them.
Viridus
A nation doesnt need to be ethnically based to have a culture.
American culture transcends race. Whites, blacks, Latinos, all of them have fought, died, and love our starry flag and the values it represents. Acknowledging the fact that a racial category doesnt affect what culture youre a part of doesnt make you a globalist.
Viridus, Gagium, Prritish Timezone
I am, because I use it as an example of a state and because your progressive definition of what a nation is directly contradicts what Israel is and what it stands for. If you reject a culture and people's right to a nation, saying it isn't "modern," you're directly rejecting Israel's right to be a Jewish state.
American culture today is inherently cosmopolitan and globalist. It's exported everywhere and globally pervasive. What about it do you want to conserve? Your Founding Fathers would roll over in their graves at the joke America is now.
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Gagium
Point taken, ethnic groups certainly arent the same thing as race, but point taken..Bringing up the founding fathers at all wasnt very bright, youre right. Will concede to that,
Viridus, New Inglaterra, Prritish Timezone
Ignore the Colony. Palestine was still culturally Palestine when it was a colony, but more importantly before they were colonized. It wasn't the British Government's, yet alone the Rothschilds nor anyone else to either push them out of their homeland or put them under the control of a state much, much more invasive than the British.
Also, I think you're ignoring a huge factor. The nation isn't decided by it's borders or it's cities or it's recognition. It's defined by it's culture and the people who practice it... Palestine wasn't simply an untamed land that could be carved up to create a Jewish state.
Gagium, New Inglaterra, Prritish Timezone
I dont think Gagium is saying that Israel is not a Jewish state. I think hes saying that a nation doesnt need to be ethnically based.
Viridus, Gagium
I never defined nation in my argument nor intended to nor do I see how it could be interpreted as such, thus rendering your counter-argument against a nonexistent argument useless...
It's exported everywhere and globally pervasive. Were the Romans globalist? Were the Christians, or even arguably the Mongols at their height? All follow this...I wont be continuing this line of useless debate and echo chambering back and forth though until you go google the definition of globalist. Thanks.
Viridus, New Inglaterra
I suppose it may be my mistake. You pointed out yourself there is no American culture, it was founded without a strong sense of cultural heritage or history. When you come from a tribe with thousands of years of history, culture and heroes, you forget that people from a hodge podge country a couple hundred years old with no stable moral compass don't have a strong basis of comparison with which to understand the nations of the old world.
It's no wonder America has gone from being white supremacist to civil war to still white supremacist to progressive revolutionaries. You still have yet to say what's worth conserving about American culture. Or what you think conservatism is. The Bill of Rights? Going to Church? Is that what conservatism is to you?
Gagium
Arabs were living there, but it wasn't a country. End of story.
Viridus, Gagium
It doesn't have to be, but they have a right to be and protecting that right is inherently conservative. People are free to be progressive and invite foreigners in and change their cultures, I don't think anyone has denied that. But to do that is inherently *not* conservative.
Gagium
All irrelevant. My argument is and has been mainly that youre misbranding people who disagree with you as globalists or leftists etc., while deliberately ignoring your own definition of culture (For this entire argument, for all purposes relevant Ive accepted and have been using your definition arbitrarily). And youve pointed out that I fit your provided definition of conservative apparently, to American culture is globalist (Google globalist.), to that it doesnt exist...Er. Yes, a mistakes been made somewhere...Heh
Viridus
But it should. The course of history has proven time and time again that cultural homogeny succeeds and multiculturalism fails.
It's no coincidence that the closest country to a true nation state today is the safest and most peaceful nation in the world while the rest of the multicultural world continues down the path of violence and chaos.
Otira, Gagium
Israel is and should be. End of story.
I've tolerated you calling me a liar and ignorant and insulting my definitions without ever bothering to provide your own, so if you are done being rude then that's fine with me. You're right in that the debate is "useless" if you'll never provide a counterargument on what you think conservatism is supposed to be anyway.
Gagium
I suppose at this point I'll just handwave like you are and say your post is irrelevant. There's no point in doing otherwise if you can't answer questions.
Gagium
I think most Americans, including self-professed conservatives, are too brainwashed by progressiveness to understand that. Even most of their conservatives I've spoken to will support Israel because they consider us G-d's Chosen and not because they have any deeper thoughts about the geopolitical situation.
Gagium
It doesn't have to be a country is what I'm saying. Arabs had been dominant there for a 1000 years prior, just because they did not have their own country doesn't excuse displacing them. I'm sure the Palestinians didn't choose to constantly be under the thumb of Imperial powers like the Abbisids, then the Ottomans, then the British.
Did the countryless (for Old world standards) tribes of North America deserve to be conquered and slaughtered by those from another continent because in their selfishness they wanted more land and power? Short answer is "No".
Gagium
The argument wasnt about my definition of conservatism, we both were arguing yours..I dont see how an argument such as yours can exist or be utilized in the way you have against a position you agree that Ive never stated once.
Please. Rude? Go review your argument tactics and what you called me and certainly others for participating in debate against you. It was bound to come back at you.
No hard feelings though. Good to be back in the swing of political debating, actually - Lets just drop the globalist and leftist and whatever other unsubstantiated insults though. Have a good night :)
Viridus
Indeed.
Gagium
I didnt have to answer your whataboutism or attempts to bring the argument away from my points... :/
Viridus
I think it's really too complicated for a yes or no, though I do respect those tribes had their own rights to exist.
Anyway, I feel too burned out to debate more on Palestine. Maybe another time?
Gagium
He described your views as that, he didn't call you personally one. There's no real fallacy in that. oof
Gagium
RIP, sure
Gagium
The argument was in part your definition of conservatism, since I've been asking you that since virtually post one for me. Asking what you think is worth conserving.
I spoke of the political stance of your views. I didn't call you a liar and ignorant. Sorry, but I don't have an issue with you having progressive views but you shouldn't personally attack me over them.
Gagium
Ill lie about your ideology, but how dare you call me a liar
Okay. Night!! :D
Viridus
It's not whataboutism just because you can't answer it. If you say something progressive, get upset about it, and then are asked to explain your views of conservatism if you consider yourself a conservative, it is part of the argument. Sorry.
Gagium
Im sorry to bring up the go google this argument, but go google the definition of whataboutism and read it to me. Your whole point is Youre talking about my idea of conservatism, but what about yours?? Thats whataboutism..
Good night :D
Edit: I also said previously that I was using your definition of conservatism for every point I made in the argument. Please read my posts. Night and no hard feelings, Otira.
Viridus
But apparently I'm a liar and he'll just double down on it with rejecting explaining his own views.
It's just funny that (I'm fairly certain) he thinks Israel has a right to exist but rejects the basis of it, while I'm being morally supported by someone who dislikes Israel but agrees with the basis of it as a Jewish state. Serious lol.
Gagium
Good grief, if you're going to bed please go to bed and stop calling me a liar.
Gagium
It's not whataboutism, it's literally a debate on an ideology and how different people interpret it. We just couldn't have a fully developed debate because you refuse to answer questions because I called a "modern" view progressive (which it by definition is).
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/progressive
*shrugs*
Gagium
When you wake up, Gagium, to go back to my original point do you support controlled immigration?
Sleep well and no name-calling when you get up.
Viridus, Gagium
I look forward to debating you whilst on my phone during school, haha..
Viridus
I can wait until you're out, I don't want to be the reason you're distracted in class. School is very important, and my hours are probably a little more flexible.
But that you didn't answer my question about immigration isn't a good sign.
Viridus, Gagium
I'm 3rd in Agriculture in this region
Feel the wrath of my big green tractor
Viridus, Gagium
lmao
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
I believe they should have found a better place for a Jewish state, if that was truly their wish, that would of less controversial and would of led to much less problems today. I don't buy that it should be in Isreal because some book said so. Even if you want to believe that, the Muslims and Christians are the descendants of Abraham as well and should also be able to establish a state in Zion.
Gagium
Have fun in school!
I wouldn't call it racism, just a mild form of antisemitism expressed by Gagium. He shared a progressive, cosmopolitan viewpoint on what makes a nation that happens to also reject the foundation of Israel's right to a Jewish identity.
Gagium
At this point I'm simply satisfied you recognize the right of the Jews to have a state of our own.
Gagium
Sa
Gagium, Libervalley
Have you ever? XD
an·ti-Sem·i·tism
/ˌan(t)ēˈseməˌtizəm,ˌanˌtīˈseməˌtizəm/
noun
noun: antisemitism
hostility to or prejudice against Jews.
I don't think I expressed that. It's clear that you cannot refrain yourself from calling those who disagree with you adherents to leftism, globalism, and now antisemitism, and thus I wish to ask you to revisit your debate tactics and lay off on the logical fallacies in dismissing your opponent's arguments as what they clearly are not simply due to your disagreement with them. I unfortunately used a few of these as well.
EDIT: He totally meant your "racism" though
Furbish Islands, Viridus, New Inglaterra
I've revisited your opinion on what a nation should be several times now. If you don't remember I can cite it again, if you do remember you're being disingenuous. If you hold that view still, you have a progressive view on nationhood that also rejects the basis of the Jewish state (a common form of antisemitism). If you no longer hold that view, why have you changed your mind?
Gagium
Why would he reject Israel like that?
Viridus, Gagium, New Inglaterra
I don't see how saying quote "modern nations and cultures arent based off of ethnic groups though" (And shouldn't be - It's an observation, not saying "Lmao anything that isn't based off of culture and ethnic groups is a nation" - How could you interpret it like that?? My front lawn is a nation now, I suppose.) correlates to "Israel shouldn't exist", or anything like that. You're keen of mentioning Israel in response to my posts time after time again that don't mention Israel or even relate to it for the most part...how come?
Israel doesn't per say have a "right to exist" - I don't think any nation really from the gecko does (Am I now an anti-christian antisemite anti-islam anti-buddhist anti-hinduist? Oh dear, what have I gotten myself in to!), though every nation that does exist has a right to govern over their land - Unless ruled by oppressive tyrants, of course. Then, sure, the nation still should exist, they just need a little government change :)
But yeah. Now that my front lawn's a nation, want to come live in it? We've got a flag and everything!
Viridus, New Inglaterra
I don't think it's deliberate, it's modern reinterpretation of what nation's should be that's an offshoot of globalist train of thought about everyone living together in multicultural states. But it's also a common argument as to why Israel shouldn't be Jewish. That we need to take more immigrants, that we need to lose our identity, etc.
What do you believe you are trying to say here?
Per se.
The gecko?
And as I've said, I agree with this.
I don't blame you for your mild antisemitism, your viewpoint on what nations are is really common now with the more progressive youth in the West. Israel - which going back to the beginning of my posts I have said is the cornerstone of my viewpoint on what a state should be like - has an ethnoreligious identity. You've said "modern" nations and cultures aren't based off of ethnic groups (which is wrong) and shouldn't be. If Israel should not be based off this identity, as you say, you reject the right of a Jewish state. It shouldn't exist, according to you. Should we open our borders and let more migrants in, perhaps?
Gagium
1. You're interpreting what I am trying to say completely wrong, and somehow twisting it so that it's...semitic? That logic would require you to accuse me of being anti- every religion that is prevalent in religious nations - Unless your argument only applies to your religion.
2. Then what's the issue?
3. American phrase, might be from the getgo..I don't know. From the beginning.
4. Then what's the issue?
5. Then what's the issue?
I don't "reject the right of a Jewish state". I just told you that Israel has a right to govern over its land and should exist. Stop twisting my words and calling me an antisemite, whilst simultaneously advocating for ethnostates. You can telegram me if you wish to continue down this line of debate and petty namecalling (I've acknowledged that I too unfortunately practiced some of this yesterday), but we're done here.
You're in for a rude awakening when you realize that this region is full of your "anti-semites".
Good day, and no tough feelings my man.
Viridus, New Inglaterra
I'll address this though. That is my opinion regarding nations and ethnic groups - It doesn't mean that I wish for every nation in the world to enforce said opinion and instantly not be based off of ethnic groups when an ethnic group in a nation like Israel is prevalent. That's foolish. I'll concede and rephrase to say that nations with sizeable amount of minorities that aren't already based off of ethnic groups shouldn't be.
Otira, Viridus, New Inglaterra
It's complicated because I don't think you really mean to reject Israel's right as a Jewish state, but your ideology on what a nation should be amounts to it. However, I do agree that it's probably best to agree to disagree.
My people have had to deal with them for thousands of years, I suspect I'll manage to survive. And I believe I've said before, I'm not a man lol (any other female NS players in this region?). But yes, no hard feelings.
Gagium
Fair enough. I agree that every nation has a right to choose its future. Perhaps self-determination is an aspect of conservative political ideology?
Gagium
Yes, I think I was arguing in bad faith by trying to apply my general opinion on western, already-mostly multicultural nations to Israel. Probably could've cut to the chase had I mentioned my opinion on Israel - You're right. My apologies.
Viridus
I should clarify that I don't believe every nation can be like Israel nor does it have to be. I simply find Israel's system to be the best and I wish others could have it not because I dislike any groups but because I want them to have their own countries if they don't have one. If that makes sense.
Really, no hard feelings, if I offended I really wasn't trying to call *you* names. I don't hate anyone for disagreeing, I think it's been pointed out before that there is no solid description of what conservative ideology is. We all have our own versions.
I think there are some aspects of commonality, however, like natural (G-d given) rights, self-determination, a preference for traditional families, etc.
Gagium
87 messsages....oh
Tesyky, Viridus, Gagium
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
An absurb reductionist argument that can be used to undermine any conservative belief.
"A true conservative should ignore free speech. Look at the what's said and not turn every country into a forum."
"A true conservative should ignore gun rights. Look at the what's needed and not turn every country into an armed camp."
Western civilization requires Western people. And controlled immigration, as I've espoused, allows for that.
Gagium
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Ok indeed.
Does anyone here want to expression their interpretation of what conservatism is and what they believe they're conserving? Genuinely curious.
Gagium
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Simple. Our way of life and what our great flag stands for. Unfortunately in my eyes there's not a lot I can do to conserve anything while still in high school, but eh. Being on here and helping advocate for conservatism is the least I can do.
Viridus
So preserve the civilization without preserving the civilizations that created it. Got it.
And what are those exactly?
Gagium
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Dunno. I'm sure google could help us there, my interpretation of it isn't really super subjective at all. Do you live in the US?
Viridus
It's what it amounts to, whether you're intellectually honest enough to admit it or not. We should ask the First Nations people how their America is doing after they were demographically replaced.
Honestly it's no surprise conservatism is dying in the West.
Gagium
@Otira Dude you need to chill out
Otira, Furbish Islands, Viridus, Gagium
I'm fine with your subjective interpretation, I want to know what you believe.
Relax, we're having a discussion. When we're done we can go back to spamming the RMB with memes and emoticons.
Gagium
Their America?
Viridus
The patchwork of tribe-nations, such as they were, that existed in North America before the arrival of Europeans. How would you say immigration impacted their civilization?
Gagium
I believe that I don't have the time to write an essay detailing every aspect of American life as experienced by me personally and how it relates to the United States, heh. I'm going to be that guy again, bear with me..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_United_States
Confederate Farmers, Viridus
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Dunno, though I do know that there's no "their America" anymore. There's nothing much to debate about regarding the colonization of the Americas, in my opinion. Was it for the better in the end? Maybe. Maybe not. I'll see what Furby has to say.
Viridus
Alright, I don't want to be tearing you away from class more than I have.
It's not a matter of differences but of connections, which is the point. I feel like I'm talking to a leftist who assures me France will be France when it's 50% Muslim. lol
Gagium
Precisely.
Gagium
No worries, 'lunch' isn't a very stressful class. Heh
Viridus
Depends on what they're serving ;)
Viridus, Gagium
Post by Furbish Islands suppressed by a moderator.
Gags (I hope you don't mind me calling you that), Furby, if you want to continue we can do so via telegram. Or agree to disagree. Or whatever. I think it's evident we won't convince each other.
I will say this: when I was younger I was once told that conservatives of today (being then) were the liberals of five years before. I thought it was silly, and that conservative ideals were solid. Now that I'm older I see it is true.
New Avalon, New Waldensia, Gagium
Observing this debate has gotten me wondering:
Does Israel have a right to exist?
Viridus, Gagium
yes
New Avalon, New Waldensia, Tesyky, Viridus, Gagium
Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser!
Gagium
I think there is a good point about demographics. Most conservatives in the US are white.
https://media2.fdncms.com/chicago/imager/u/original/24192617/fob-clifton_election_map-magnum.jpg
Trump only won by slim margins in 2016. And a republican hasn't won the popular vote since 2004. I don't think the Republicans are going to win again. Not trying to appear racist, just saiyan.
Gagium
Not my kaiser.
Gagium
AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN GLOBAL EMPIRE
Gagium
REEEE get out of my Silesia!
Liberated American Provinces, Gagium
I'll say it again . . . AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN GLOBAL EMPIRE
Gagium
Two capitals?!
Liberated American Provinces, Gagium
No. Vienna and Budapest will become one giant metropolis
Viridus, Gagium
I don't think anyone should have rights, except for the government of course!
Gagium
What will you call it?
Silly communist puppet.
Liberated American Provinces, Viridus
Yeah kinda the point of this nation, but also how many people in here made abortion illegal?
Gagium
Whose puppet?
Gagium
My own
Gagium
A woman's body means it is a woman's choice. Conservatism believes in individual rights.
Gagium
Good, just checking because I've noticed that the furbish islands person has made abortion illegal
Gagium
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.