Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
The House did not establish it. It was established by executive order after a referendum.
Which political party here is best suited for minarchists?
When was the last time we teamed up with the fash?
1984? Horrible joke, I know.
Right-Winged Nation, Reaganomic Nws
over 2 years ago
?
RLP was founded from a Christian Libertarian Party and a Minarchist Party.
The Reds allege that Minerva was attempting to collude with fascists a few months ago - and I find this claim dubious - but our government has been ostensibly anti-fascist since the beginning of the Pevvania administration.
Thank God - some of you guys have no idea how impossible tyrants are to work with. GGR joined the first organization I ever founded - the now-defunct Anticomintern - and didn't do a damn thing for us. Plus, we couldn't get them to quit invading innocents... when I disbanded it, I was actually relieved when the MT Army took it (though, at the time, I was offended when they stated that it belonged to GGR).
Honestly, we're far more likely to defeat both the state socialists and the Nazis and quick succession than we are to convince either party to fight for the forces of good.
*in quick succession
Well, that may be true, but both the RLP and the Democratic Reform Party defend a small group of elected officials, the board, controlling the region.
The Party for Open Governance advocates replacing this system with a single Legislative Assembly, in which all active citizens have a vote. Which sounds more democrat to you?
-I'm Kings Island, and I approve this message.
The President of Libertatem of Muh Roads wrote: Submarine? Did a sandwich just come in here and make threats?
The Federation of Hallo Island (1 year 13 days ago) I love you, Muh roads.
Condealism, Midland County
Oh, and I'd like to request that POG be added to the list of parties. Colors are burgundy and silver, and the description could be as follows;
The Party for Open Governance, led by Kings Island, advocates for comprehensive reform through replacement of the current system with a single legislature (in which all citizens have a vote) as well as an independent judiciary and a greater focus on interregional diplomacy.
Thanks.
* More democratic
Yeah, party list could use updatin' and whatnot.
I vaguely remember this.
The DRP and POG are in a coalition, and will vote for each other when putting forth candidates and policies.
I would also like to be added to the list. The party color is sea green.
While I may not support your causes, I am excited to see two new parties that may end up being something substantial in Libertatem much unlike the reactionary parties of our past. I wish you both the best of luck.
Kings Island
You can ask [nation=short]Captain Woodhouse[/nation] himself. I don't like the guy, but I haven't known him to lie about NationStates stuff:
you can keep lying and saying you only cooperated with them 2 years ago, Minerva, but you know as well as I do that isn't true. Pevvania knows it too, since he recently asked the fash for help.
hey it's okay buddy. the last guy who tried to negotiate with the fash thought he'd secured "peace in our time" too!
you're far more likely to defeat the left and fash in "quick succession" than you are to survive at the Sun's core, but that doesn't make your chances of beating us any less infinitesimal.
if you ever feel like questioning why The Red Fleet continues to harass REATO and Libertatem-connected targets, ask [nation=short]Pevvania[/nation] why he wouldn't give up two simple regions in exchange for a complete cease-fire by TRF.
and then ask Minerva why he tried to invade [region=The International Communist Union] under a fash false flag when he was Military Manager after the cease-fire had already been agreed to by President Condealism.
Having been 24 hours since The TABLOID Act was proposed, and it being evident that discussion has ceased, I hereby motion for a Board vote on said legislation.
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_new_united_states/detail=factbook/id=452941
Aye.
I see what you're trying to do, and you know what? I'm not going to give you the satisfaction. Instead, I admit it, openly and without reservation: I was the one who ordered Minerva to infiltrate Nazi Europa all that time ago. I also authorized the false-flag operation when I realized you couldn't be trusted.
Yeah, both operations ended in dismal failure, so it was terribly convenient when people started accusing the Libertatem military of insubordination - since this assumption was better than the alternative, I just rolled with it and simply offered a few universal pardons. But now that the War is back in full swing, and I'm out of office, I suppose there's no point in keeping those things a secret anymore.
Aye, I suppose
Yeah, but that's not what happened. At all. Minerva wasn't working with the NE military, so there was no infiltration. Minerva used a false flag. Minerva pretended to be a fascist to deflect blame when the operation failed, and then supplied a Nazi gameplayer with the password to a communist region.
All of this happened while I did nothing to instruct The Red Fleet to attack you or targets connected to you, and no TRF personnel gave aid to any leftist military doing the same until after the cease-fire had already been broken.
This is a pathetic attempt at an excuse that doesn't match up with the facts of what happened, and only serves to make you look more desperate.
Or, and let me just toss this out here, you had members of your cabinet brazenly refusing to follow your orders (Minerva, Pevvania) because you're not a good leader and don't have the ability to get others on the same page as you when you need it the most.
I'm a staunch libertarian, but I'll tell you I'd take the fash over commies any day.
They're both equally vile.
"We totally oppose fascism, but until only a couple of months ago constitutionally encouraged collusion with fascists and have tried to work with them at every opportunity, and will continue to do so in the future."
Libertatem, noted "Anti-Fascist" region
They are both vile, indeed, but communism is just somehow worse..Maybe I think this only because my country has a terrible experience with the colour red.
They're virtually the same, in practice.
The New United States, Hallo Island, Condealism, Reaganomic Nws
I'd like to note that the line in Article VIII that calls for cooperation with the Fascists was removed when The REDS Amendment was approved.
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_new_united_states/detail=factbook/id=414770
Speaking of: [nation=short]Pevvania[/nation], could you log onto [nation=short]The Law of Libertatem[/nation] and put strikes through the lines of Article VIII that were invalidated with the passage of The REDS Amendment?
Hey, it's almost like I made note of that!
from the dispatch you linked: "65 days ago"
hey look! I found someone who has no knowledge of the historical practice of fascism or communism! in a libertarian region, to boot!
Oh, and the State Dprt reform bill.
also: "fash" is leftist lingo so every time you say that a communism gains their hammer + sickle
I can do that.
What now?
Lol!
And YOU happen to be what? Stalinism (with all its deliberate famines and purges of Jews) is actually Fascism's nasty brother, but of course you don't know that because you're a 12-year-old internet communist who gets his knowledge on ideology from WWII propaganda.
man, rough words from the 13-year-old internet libertarian who gets his knowledge on communism from Cold War propaganda!!
There's no reason to be snarky. I read your post incorrectly and I apologize.
Yes, yes, but I was 13 seven years ago (about the same time you were born).
Pevvania
Post self-deleted by Yelsim.
the math department in your "DOWN WITH THE STATE! UP WITH PRIVATE ENTERPRISE!" charter school must not be doing so hot :(
your apology will waive the last six months of your rock-breaking sentence in the world's esteemed labor academies after the revolution. thank you.
and I think you'll find that there is plenty of reason to be snarky. snark and sarcasim have been a part of political discourse since time immemorial.
and even sarcasm
Hey, I'll give you that. :) But I'm still better at economics than Karl Marx.
then I await your treatise disproving his findings in Capital
Alright. But first, please do elaborate on the marvelous achievements of "scientific" socialism in Stalin's glorious Soviet Union, which unfortuanately included my homeland (Estonia) so I'm quite familiar with the fruits of socialist prosperity brought on Earth by your red prophets...
since you claim to be 20, that means you were born in 1994 or 1995, 4-5 years after Estonia left the Soviet Union, which means that you didn't experience any "fruits of socialist prosperity" firsthand at all. you and that Bulgarian guy should exchange numbers and swap stories.
Does the word "Holodomor" ring any bells? What about the Cambodian genocide? Apparently, deliberately starving millions of ethnic Ukrainians isn't genocide, and neither is killing millions because of their class.
Further, Mussolini was initially a socialist, and based his system of governance of a semi-command economy in which the state supported and subsidized some businesses while stifling competition.
Hitler enacted comprehensive social welfare as well, and the NSDAP was a labor party influenced heavily by socialism. These are facts. Interpret then as you will.
I've actually read Capital. I'd simply like to say that the labour theory of value propagated by Marx is a vast oversimplification that no reputable economist supports.
we already discussed the 1933 famine (by "we" I mean me and a couple of other communists - Pevv suddenly disappeared from the conversation when he learned that he was quoting a source that didn't agree with him at all! and the rest of y'all didn't even read anything we posted you just kept ham-fisting the keyboard with Cold War-era propaganda and even WWII-era propaganda that was peddled by literal fascists)
also lol the NSDAP was strictly anti-communist. if you think that communism and fascism are remotely similar in their goals then you're not paying attention bud
something tells me you haven't actually read Capital
Hmm. Except that normal people like me actually have parents and friends and in my case, those people I know did experience the brutal terrors of red fascism. Since Marxists like you need to experience everything firsthand (because you live alone in basements isolated from sources of information and your fellow human beings), let me ask you: are you actually exploited to the extent that your miserable life would be better under the holodomor?
I'm sure the effects of Stalin's rule still lingered afterwards.
I'm not saying that their goals are similar; they're radically different. What I'm saying is that the results of both systems are the increase of state power, the seizure of the market, and in most cases (though not all - China and Spain for instance) genocide.
As for the previous "discussion", I quoted several peer-reviewed journals.
does the "NWS" in your name stand for "Nerds Who're Salty" because you're salty a f
That was sad.
Muh Roads
Are you denying the holodomor? D: I'm done wasting my time with you, you've just completely discredited yourself to the level of holocaust deniers. I'm speachless...
yeah but you were trying to be coy and subtly imply that communism and fascism were indistinguishable which is preposterous
neat. i quoted several peer-reviewed historians who are among the scholars who have published hundreds of works on famines around the world. the historical consensus among serious historians is that the 1933 famine was not carried out intentionally, which is what was originally argued here. y'all can keep moving the goalposts all you want, but the kick is still gonna be short and Auburn's gonna win the football game.
Post self-deleted by Yelsim.
Incredible cherrypicking there. I stated that the labour theory of value is an oversimplification, not the entire book.
If we are to believe the labor theory of value, then a number of problems arise. For instance, if I were to create two tables - a beautiful table and a puke-green table - the production of which requires the same amount of labor, both tables are worth as much.
Such a theory does not account for demand, which would in fact lead to the ugly green table being worth less. It's an oversimplification.
you're about two weeks too late for this one budderino
to be clear since y'all keep bringing this up: of course the 1933 famine happened. literally no one in the world denies that, and if they do, then yes they're nutjobs in the same category as people who deny the Nazi Holocaust.
the 1933 famine was, by consensus of non-biased historians who have studied the facts of that famine, not intentionally caused by Stalin to murder millions of Ukranians like anti-communists love to tout.
Firstly, you still haven't addressed the Cambodian genocide.
Secondly, I'm implying that their results are similar, not that their goals are.
Post self-deleted by Reaganomic Nws.
i'll address it when y'all accept that historical consensus is not on your side w/r/t the 1933 famine. since that won't happen I'll just continue ignoring it because i'm not gonna waste my time writing words that no one's gonna read
except these, of course, but these words don't require any effort.
What about "Yelsim"?
Yearning for Extreme Luscivious Self-Infliction of Marxism?
Wonderful. That's nice. Let's just ignore opposing points, since we, after having cited several reputable academic journals, refuse to acknowledge a nonexistent consensus.
Source? You're just being funny at this point.
it's fun to pretend a consensus doesn't exist when it doesn't agree with your worldview
(the consensus exists. read Tauger's book. you pretending that it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away)
i'm happy to provide sources: https://client00.chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23FullCommunism&server=irc.esper.net
The Black Book of Communism, anyone?
i bet you also think that a book called "Red Holocaust" is a credible, non-biased source
A chat room is a source?
I can share sources with you on that chat room, yes
No thanks. You didn't answer my genuine question regarding whether you, personally, are oppressed and exploited by capitalism. Like I said I'm not wasting my time anymore, holocaust denier.
neat
Neat indeed
So a single historian now provides a consensus?
We're not saying that opposing viewpoints are illegitimate. We're saying that the insistence that some sort of academic consensus exists is ludicrous.
I provided numerous academic publications. The fact that such publications would acknowledge the Holodomor was intentional shows that there is no consensus.
I have read and seriously considered the sources you have presented. I acknowledge that the data you have presented is legitimate. But the sources on this issue are contradictory.
You're free to have political views and to debate. But ideologues such as you have no desire or capacity for debate. You and your ilk would rather spew poorly-worded, erroneous shleck then have a discussion.
I was happy to speak about this with several of your associates, intellectuals who seriously consider data and moreover respect decorum. Normally I would not post such a personal message, but it's necessary.
Get out of our region. You're no longer welcome.
Miencraft
I didn't need to be a good leader. We have other people here for that.
No, my Presidency was intended to be a reality check. I succeeded in what I set out to do - I popularized the anti-War sentiment in order to get the conflict to die down so that you couldn't deal us a sucker punch after your defeat at CAPS, and then when I left office, I stirred up a lot of pro-War fervor in order to get the next President warmed up and ready to continue sinking your bath toys. Sure, it's a shame that some of my plans didn't work out (my foreign affairs game in particular was a little weak during that time), but I took an impending recession and turned it into a brief reprieve from the fighting, and it worked out great; the en masse withdrawal of support for REATO after the CAPS occupation could have been a major disaster if we'd tried to continue our winning streak as though nothing were wrong, but we managed to get through that scenario without incident.
Like a fool, I assumed that I could achieve peace in our time by negotiating with you, but when Pev reminded me of the implications of your offer (the return of two of your greatest failures being your main demand should have been a dead giveaway, in retrospect), I realized that you were only trying to derive a military benefit, same as I was. He was right to keep my idealism in check.
l o l
go read:
Tauger
Davies & Wheatcroft ([nation=short]Pevvania[/nation]-approved!)
Fitzpatrick
Getty
Thurston
Tottle
get back with me when you're done
6 historians also do not provide a consensus.
That said, I say we ignore Yelsim. Unless he could be ejected for breaching decorum?
of course they don't but they cite and refer to dozens upon dozens of other historians which you would know if you weren't so scared of being wrong to actually go and look up what they had to say.
they're also (Tauger especially) considered pre-eminent in their field. Tauger in particular is renowned for his scholarly work on famines.
people like to question his study of the 1933 famine but then no one refutes his work on the Indian famines in the 1940s. weird!!!
I'm on my phone at the moment and, as awful as it is to admit this, I can't figure out how to copy paste, so I'm afraid I don't have any links. That said, I cited several peer reviewed journals during the previous argument.
Let's keep it cordial, everybody. This is an open region, where all are free to speak their minds, but it is preferable if visitors respect that this is our region and that it is not particularly kind to insult a man in his own house.
:)
The 1943 Bengal famine was due to the policies of the British government. Heavy taxes forced farmers to grow cash crops, decreasing their food output.
Had Indian farmers not been taxed (I'll remind you that Libertarians are against taxation) the famine would have been far less severe, if it occurred at all.
Another famine due to state intervention.
I was very cordial, until he insulted several members of this region.
it's also not particularly kind to compare someone to people who deny the fact that the Nazi Holocaust was responsible for the murder of ~11,000,000 people, for which there is overwhelming evidence and unquestioned historical consensus, when they say that the 1933 famine in the Ukraine was not purposefully and intentionally caused by Stalin to kill Ukrainians in particular, for which there is no evidence and no consensus outside of anti-communists.
but no one is bellyaching about that are they
It is well within my power to banject him, however I have yet to exercise this power since I became president.
I truly don't mind a debate, open discussion is something I encourage.
But I should note that there is a rather large difference between light teasing and blatantly calling someone an idiot because of what they believe.. and while I can't eject anyone who does so (based on that only), best know that the mods will and have done in the past.
Wowza! It's back with different names.
Hallo Island
i just wanna remind y'all that several people in this region, including our good friend [nation=Reaganomic NWS] said that they would rather work with fascists than communists, and y'all had it in your constitution until two months ago that it was acceptable to collude with fascists.
these are the folks you're working with. people who literally, in the year of our lord 2015, support these kinds of policies.
and some other people who don't actually think that, but for some reason don't find it utterly reprehensible to support it.
I never called anyone an idiot. the closest thing to flaming came from your side:
The current populace and government of Liberatem is quite different from the founders of this region.
Acceptable, unfortunately yes. Put into action? Fortunately no.
That particular article went under an extremely long review, and at the time, the people of Libertatem were divided between continuing or ending the war. Which is simply why it took so long to amend.
Condealism
Hadn't blamed you, Misley.
I was fully prepared for a civil debate (which I would rather enjoy) until you said that I know nothing about history, and further until you insulted NWS and then deleted the post.
And again, your refusal to address the Cambodian Genocide is childish. I'm also assuming you won't rebut my point on the Bengal famine?
as recently as five months ago, Minerva and Pevvania were actively attempting to work with Captain Woodhouse, who at the time was leading Nazi Europa's military. that much is known for a fact. It's possible that such attempts have continued since then. There is certainly no proven track record in this region of anti-fascism, and there is a long long track record of actively working with fascists.
just making it clear.
Everyone here's already seen you in action, but not everyone here has seen what a fascist region can do. It's only logical that they would assume that fascism is the lesser and not the greater of two evils, as ignorant a sentiment as it may be.
The fact that we even changed our Constitution over such a trivial technicality just goes to show you how little we support fascism. Let me put this into perspective for you: We intentionally censored and abridged the contents of someone else's speech without their permission in order to demonstrate how far removed we are from totalitarian aggressors. That change was in no way necessary, yet I doubt any one of us would argue that it wasn't appropriate. Personally, I think they should have done this - or even removed the Article altogether - a long time ago... and what do you know? I even said so myself!
Yelsim is Misley? I wasn't aware, though I suppose the anagram should have been rather obvious, haha.
I have to say though that I expected a more civil and thoughtful debate from the leader of the red fleet, an organization which I oppose but also very much respect.
wrong!!!
wrong!!!
the three posts that I've deleted during this conversation were because I messed something up in posting it, which I immediately fixed and reposted.
This is a quote. It is also an insult. Do try to recall who exactly you insult and at what time, when you deign to start a flame war on our RMB.
If Pev and Minerva worked with the fascists, it wasn't apparent to me and would be something I would have strongly stood against... yet 5 months ago was not under my presidency either. Are you absolutely sure it was them? Not a false puppet claiming to be Pev or Minerva?
I can't remember the names at the present time, but I do remember being involved in a few raids against the fascists.
Yeah, it took me awhile to realize that I had also unintentionally overlooked the pattern - it seems so obvious now that his name and classification are both backwards, but at first glance(s), it looked like gibberish.
colluding with fascists, some of whom in this day and age literally and truly by their own admission believe in fascism: "a trivial technicality," says former Libertatem President Conservative Idealism
trivial except for the part where they have to constantly remind their region members to keep posts about how much they hate Jews on their off-site forums so they don't get banned from NS
a technicality except for the part where you guys, as recently as five months ago, tried desperately to get advice on military gameplay from them
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.