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Region: Libertatem

History

Skaveria wrote:When do you think the time-break was and we entered the wacky universe? I'd put money on when Arnold Schwarzenegger became Govonor of California. Ever since then we've had the smooth jazz president, yeehaw bush jr, that one black guy, and the orange Fonz. We're in Universe B, the alternate timeline. Tbh, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Schwarzneggar was govinator after William "BJ" Clinton left office but otherwise good point.

Narland

Generally when enough people similarly realize that their expectations were misapprehended about the world around them that consensus tends to form. Truth is stranger than fiction and fiction can only ape reality so long before it becomes fantasy. Plato's cave to varying degrees of sensation.

There was the year Tiger Woods won the golf championship, Vanilla Ice won Black Entertainer of the Year, France wanted to go to war and the French and the Germans was telling them to calm down. Some people thought that was strange.

1918 Was the Weird Year for some sets of my Great-Grand Parents (and their generation for various reasons). All of their societal expectations had been shattered. Nothing went back to their normal.

Anyone in 1932 in Europe who said that it can't happen here. The weirdness turned to a living hell in short order. I don't think the Allies learned anything from WW2, or they would have shot all of their Socialists right after the Nuremberg Trials instead of letting them poison Western Society to the point of no return. Good for those whose expectations are an Arab Spring (21st Century), bad for those in Europe who think that they can maintain themselves with their unrealistic expectations.

The 60s and 70s were very surreal for anyone in the US that wasn't paying attention that the Fabian Socialists had taken over the institutions of culture, education and governance.

Between 1973 and 1979 when 80%-90% of the self identified Hippies became Jesus People (Christians of one stripe or another). If one hadn't been paying attention by 1980, it seemed that all the hippies (except for the few Hollywood stereotypes that remained) disappeared; when they converted, took baths, cut their hair and got blue and white collar jobs or started businesses for themselves.

For Progressive Democrats and GOP, the weird year was 1980 when ABC, CBS, NBC, Mutual, PBS, UP and API were saying that everything was fine and Carter would be re-elected in a landslide, but the only people I could find that said they were voting for Carter were my middle school teachers, some welfare recipients, and some civil servants. Everyone one else i asked that year, truck drivers, carpenters, janitors, business owners, scientists, farmers, ranchers, said they were voting for Reagan. And then to watch the looks on the faces of half-of America as their 40+ years of Socialist crap to turn America into Soviet Union, Jr. by the year 2000 came crashing down thanks to a resurgence of Conservatism.

I was that brash teenager who would walk up to you and asked what you were doing, what you thought about something, and why you thought that it mattered, then would jot it down in a little black book. Before the internet our smartphones were a pen and paper pad, and we had to play Candy-Crush in our heads.)

The United States Of Patriots

Rateria wrote:That’s a good question. I’ve seen people joking that the killing of Harambe the gorilla messed up the timeline. If we lived in a bizarre science-fiction series, I wouldn’t be too surprised if killing the gorilla warped reality.

F

Narland, Rateria

Reality has always been this crazy, you are just noticing it more now that you are older.

Narland, Rateria, Skaveria

Hello everyone : )

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Skaveria

Shallowell wrote:Hello everyone : )

Hey there, Shallowell. Welcome to the region.

Rateria

Auxorii wrote:Hey there, Shallowell. Welcome to the region.

Hello! I used to be a member of this region 3-5 years ago but went inactive for a long time. Good to be back, I recognize a lot of vintage names here

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria

Shallowell wrote:Hello! I used to be a member of this region 3-5 years ago but went inactive for a long time. Good to be back, I recognize a lot of vintage names here

WB Shallowell.

Tomorrow is Easter for most forms Western of Christianity, and Easter next week for Eastern Christianity. Happy Easter. Χριστός ανέστη! I missed wishing those celebrating Passover well last week, I hope you had a happy Pesach. My cousins celebrate Resurrection Day on the same day as Passover every year.

Auxorii, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Shallowell wrote:Hello! I used to be a member of this region 3-5 years ago but went inactive for a long time. Good to be back, I recognize a lot of vintage names here

Ah, I see- well welcome back, my friend.

Narland wrote:Tomorrow is Easter for most forms Western of Christianity, and Easter next week for Eastern Christianity. Happy Easter. Χριστός ανέστη! I missed wishing those celebrating Passover well last week, I hope you had a happy Pesach. My cousins celebrate Resurrection Day on the same day as Passover every year.

In my Eastern (Byzantine) Catholic Church, Easter is celebrated this Monday.

Narland, Rateria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

I am an unconditional supporter of Fascism

The Cot Corporation wrote:I am an unconditional supporter of Fascism

gay

Miencraft, Muh Roads, Rateria, Highway Eighty-Eight, The Cot Corporation

I just remembered that this existed. We did nothing with it for over two years. A lot has happened since then, I’ll say that. Maybe I can write up an article about the ongoing process to create the Fourth Republic at some point.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=949884

Kongeriget Island

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

I hope everyone enjoyed their Easter/ Passover

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Kyrie eleison.

Christe eleison.

Kyrie eleison.

Lord, have mercy.

Christ, have mercy.

Lord, have mercy.

Let us remember this Easter Monday that every day in our universe is Easter. Every day since the resurrection of Christ Jesus has been defined by His glory and His glory alone- the fact that He trampled death cannot only be acknowledged on a single day of the year.

God owes us nothing. Everything He gives us is from His overwhelming mercy. Thank you for your mercy, Lord. Have mercy on Libertatem and the faithful living within your world.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:I'm curious about what this region thinks about children and abortion? Does a parent have any obligations to his/her children? What are those obligations?

Abortion is immoral and should be illegal in any instance that doesn’t threaten the mother’s life.

As for parental obligations- I think you’ll have to more specific. Generally, I believe both parents have a social and moral responsibility to be in the picture for the child and support them in whatever way their means will allow. In the case of an unwanted child, they should be put up for adoption or foster care.

The United States Of Patriots

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:I don't think my questions can get any more specific without making assumptions as to what 'Tatemites believe. They are pretty clear questions though.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Does a parent have any obligations to his/her children? What are those obligations?

This is a loaded question. We could talk about the father’s obligations (if any), child support/allowance programs or any number of things. I think the the obligations a parent has to their child depends on the context and situation at hand.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Does a parent have any obligations to his/her children? What are those obligations?

Simply put, if you bring someone out of nothing into consciousness, and they can't consent, yes you have an obligation to take care of them

Rateria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Then why does God get a free pass?

I'm not religious

Rateria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:I know you're not. What you said, however, is basically the same thing I hear from a number of people on the Christian Right.

Well, I'm not the Christian Right and God shouldn't get a pass

Rateria

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:I'm curious about what this region thinks about children and abortion? Does a parent have any obligations to his/her children? What are those obligations?

I'm against abortion for any reason other than to prevent the death of the mother. I used to make an exception for cases of rape because a pregnancy from rape would mean the fetus violated the mother's property rights, considering she owns herself and you have the right to forcable vacate people from your property if you didn't concent. Consensual sex on the other hand, would be like if you invited someone to your house and then shot them for tresspassing. The reason I changed my mind is because a child cannot tresspass on their parent's property. You cannot abandon your child. Childen have certain positive rights that adults do not.

This ties into the other question. A parent is fully responsible for their child up until the point that child reaches the age of majority, whatever age that is. I have my own thoughts on that, but I digress.

I have little room to speak for any God because I'm an atheist. In the case of Christ, it seems as though Mary was a surrogate. She certainly had a responsibility to Christ. God played the role of absent father. You could say that Mary being religious, concentually gave God a pass on the whole child support thing, considering his status as an all-powerful being, therefore he could abdicate his responsibility for Christ, however, in general, it's my belief one should never abandon their child, I got that from my experience in a single-parent household, but also from my own ethical thoughts on the subject.

Narland

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Then why does God get a free pass?

You mean ‘the Supreme Being’?

Skaveria wrote:I'm against abortion for any reason other than to prevent the death of the mother. I used to make an exception for cases of rape because a pregnancy from rape would mean the fetus violated the mother's property rights, considering she owns herself and you have the right to forcable vacate people from your property if you didn't concent. Consensual sex on the other hand, would be like if you invited someone to your house and then shot them for tresspassing. The reason I changed my mind is because a child cannot tresspass on their parent's property. You cannot abandon your child. Childen have certain positive rights that adults do not.

This ties into the other question. A parent is fully responsible for their child up until the point that child reaches the age of majority, whatever age that is. I have my own thoughts on that, but I digress.

I have little room to speak for any God because I'm an atheist. In the case of Christ, it seems as though Mary was a surrogate. She certainly had a responsibility to Christ. God played the role of absent father. You could say that Mary being religious, concentually gave God a pass on the whole child support thing, considering his status as an all-powerful being, therefore he could abdicate his responsibility for Christ, however, in general, it's my belief one should never abandon their child, I got that from my experience in a single-parent household, but also from my own ethical thoughts on the subject.

Well written.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

I agree with Skaveiria. As an aside from an Evangelical perspective of which you will likely disagree, God is not far from any one of us. If Scripture is to be believed, God was not an absent father, confirming the Sonship through centuries of prophecy, and with miracles among which is the Resurrection. God did not leave his soul in Sheol, but raised him from the dead (conquering death itself).

Mary did give her verbal consent to bear the Messiah. She married a man, Joseph who likewise consented. His earthly father Joseph was a Carpenter (a skilled craftsman at the least). Jesus would have continued as a craftsman from 12 into his 20s. There was no such luxury as being a teenager back then. Unless you were part of the 1% of the 1% and raised as a prince in a palace, sometime between 7 to 14 one became part of the workforce. Life would have been hard, but not desperately miserable.

His parents raised Jesus of Nazareth according to the Torah during the 2nd Temple Era and the Hezekiah Reformed Synagogue System under the jus genitum of the Pax Romana. Jesus was Bar Mitzvah-ed at 12. Some time in his 20s (as was the custom), Jesus was educated as an itinerant Preacher (Rabbi) who began his ministry around 27-33 (again as was the custom of the time) under the Temple authority. If not the Sanhedrin would not have had the jurisdiction to try him in the manner in which they did.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:No, I mean God. That's what I wrote.

So why does your Supreme Being get a pass but my God doesn’t?

XFL has declared bankruptcy due to Covid-19. It didn't get off the ground. The US needs a good rugby league anyway.

Narland wrote:XFL has declared bankruptcy due to Covid-19. It didn't get off the ground. The US needs a good rugby league anyway.

MLR is decent

Narland

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:There can really only be one supreme being, so there really can't be a "your" or "mine" in regards to that.

Since I don't subscribe to Christian dogma, I do not have to answer for any flaws in it. Simply put, because I do not believe that God condemned all his children for the actions of two (which really makes zero sense), committed genocides, sends innocents to eternal prison in Hell, sacrificed his son brutally and needlessly, etcetera.

I just don't understand how anyone can honestly say, "It's bad if you do it, but it's holy of God does it."

Of course my God is our God. However, you’ve always refused to detail on what the ‘supreme being’ is in your view. You instead just deflect; which is fine, I am proud to talk about God and dispel the false notions that you ascribe to Him.

You’re assuming a lot of those things are Christian doctrine - and the bits of doctrine that you do mention are intentionally simplified and demonstrate your clear lack of understanding of that Christian doctrine.

God never “condemned all His children for the actions of two”,

Within Genesis, God commands Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - a commandment that Adam & Eve break because of temptation, symbolic of the fallen nature of man. If you read on, you find that all of His children aren’t condemned - I think it has something to do with that “needless and brutal sacrifice of His son” you mention; and even since Genesis, God does not “condemn” any person, in fact, His will is the exact opposite - it’s for us to be saved.

God has not “committed genocide” and nor does He “send innocents to eternal prison in Hell”.

Kongeriget Island

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:1. The doctrine of original sin. We are all guilty because one of our ancestors did something "bad." Because of this guilt, which is really just an extension of the tyranny in law which was practiced by the Mediterranean peoples (that the Framers repudiated in our Constitution) to Heaven. Because we are all guilty from birth (or, conception), we must all seek pardon.

2. The Bible describes the destruction of entire tribes, cities and nations. Passover itself is one such case, when God decides that he is going to kill a bunch of people, including kids. There's the Flood, the Canaan thing, the Amalekite thing.

3. Nice word game, but, since God is supposed to be an omnipotent being, his whole "plan" is completely meaningless and unnecessarily brutal. According the to orthodox view, people are condemned to Hell all the time for the crime of simply not knowing that God is god and this whole "original sin."

1. This again, is such a simplistic view on what Original Sin is. Yes, you are correct, but you are taking the Adam & Eve story as completely literal - which it is not. It is allegorical. It tells the story of human nature and how we are fallen and partially depraved, and we require the grace of God to be made holy.

2. And? None of these were “genocides” and the fact that you lump them all together with no regard to their individual contexts just proves my point that you don’t (and maybe don’t want to) understand the basics of Christian doctrine.

3. What was God’s will according to the Bible? Again, God does not condemn anyone to Hell. If you actually knew Christian doctrine, you’d know that God’s will was the Garden of Eden, and that it was humanity who condemned themselves through sin. God wants us to be saved, which is why He came down as Jesus Christ to offer His own blood as sacrifice. We are able to accept His sacrifice and be redeemed for our sins. You keep talking about how we are all condemned for what happened in the Garden of Eve, but this isn’t the case as that is the entire point of the Messiah. I’m not an Orthodox, so I can’t state what their belief on Hell is - but there are varying Catholic views and I can only speak on my own belief that I derive from my Biblical interpretation and what the Church has defined. People do not just go to Hell for “original sin”; original sin is a doctrine to describe the very nature of humanity - that we are all sinners. People do not get sent to Hell because of what Adam & Eve did - people go to Hell because they do the same thing that Adam & Eve did.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

Again, we are supposedly born bad because God decided that sin was inheritable. Sin gets us condemned to Hell, and God does the condemning, and we will condemn us unless we just so happen to know of, agree with the logic of, and accept his highly convoluted plan to fix the thing that he caused in the first place.

2. Those were most certainly genocides.

3. If God didn't condemn people to Hell, what's up with all this Heaven and Hell talk? What's the point of missionaries? If God's will was the Garden of Eden, why did he create evil? Why did he order the genocides such as occurred when the Israelites invaded Canaan? Why did he kill children? If God wants us to be saved, why does he allow people to never hear about Jesus's bloody sacrifice during their lives so that they can be saved?

1. You did not even understand what you read:

“By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".”

We do not inherent the sins of our first parents. The Church is clear on this. We inherent the effects of their sin, which is the depraved human nature they gave us. Further in the Catechism, it states:

“yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state ... original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"—a state and not an act" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 404)

Mind you, this personal sin committed by Adam & Eve was not apart of God’s will, as you continually keep stating, as it was a sin. Adam & Eve committed the personal sin that led to the depraved state of humanity against the commandment of God. “Personal responsibility and guilt were Adam's, who because of his sin, was unable to pass on to his descendants a human nature with the holiness with which it would otherwise have been endowed, in this way implicating them in his sin. The doctrine of original sin thus does not impute the sin of the father to his children, but merely states that they inherit from him a "human nature deprived of original holiness and justice", which is "transmitted by propagation to all mankind".”

Hopefully now you understand the doctrine of original sin a bit better.

2. Again - you are lumping them all together as if they have the same contexts. Perhaps you’d have a more successful argument if you actually gave a specific example, rather than just stating every time someone has died in the Bible is the fault of God.

3. God did not create Hell for humanity. Hell was created for the angels who rebelled against Him. Satan, as the serpent, corrupts humanity through sin in order to make them apart of his rebellion against God. The punishment for sin, as ascribed by God, is death of the body. Sin itself however, is the death of the soul - we willingly turn away from God by sinning and reject His grace. The point of the “Heaven and Hell” talk is to get people to accept Christ’s sacrifice and gift of eternal life rather than giving in to their own temptations in their depraved nature.

God’s will was the Garden of Eden, yes. Evil was not present within this creation (Earth) until Adam & Eve sinned. Evil is not a creation of God, evil is the rejection of God or His grace. Adam & Eve giving into their temptation by the serpent out of their own free will has nothing to do with God, and it is exactly what God told Adam & Eve not to do.

Again, you keep bringing up these simplistic versions of Biblical narratives with no quotations or any specificity as to the genocidal actions committed. Since you can not provide these, I’ll just refer you to an apologist article that talks about the common arguments against the Book of Joshua:

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2019/violence-against-the-canaanites-in-deuteronomy-and-joshua-reconsidered

As for people who never hear about Christ in their lifetimes, the Catechism states:

“It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity, and, by extension, God may permit them to attain salvation.”

Auxorii wrote:Evil is not a creation of God

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."

~Isaiah 45:7

Miencraft wrote:"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."

~Isaiah 45:7

That’s a mistranslation of the hebrew word ra; a more accurate translation would be:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things”

Narland

What the Theologians are saying (in 21st Century narrative words) is that whatever Adam and Eve did in siding with the Serpent (personification of Narcissm, (Self-Worship/Pride/Ambition without regard for oneself and others) by deception, slavery, and murder in the name of Truth, Liberty, and Life), it broke (FUBARed) the entire Cosmos (that part of the Universe we inhabit, our space-time continuum).

That event (the fall) broke it (the Cosmos) in such a way that it separated our time-space from the font of its source, God and the direct and full imminence of His presence and His beneficent attributes (Life, Liberty, Goodness / Justice / Righteousness, Truth, Intelligent Wisdom (Sapience), and unfettered serene Sustenance.

Before the fall, Adam (small caps: man and woman, and the entirety of the Human Species) a spiritual being (cosmic power) who could liberally do anything he wanted in his innocence (innocence not naivete) and perfection (a true state of Liberty) with one caveat, he was not allowed to push the self destruct button that remove the safety protocols (directly experiencing the unintended consequences of beneficence and harm (good and evil) upon himself and others causing an untamable butterfly effect that infused itself throughout the Cosmos creating entropy, sin (error) deprivation, absence of good, and neglect upon everything and everyone subject to it.

Adam died spiritually (he was separated from God, and the cosmic power (the good that) he wielded as a perfect, innocent being (his spiritual life) given authority over the workings on the earth e.g., – he named the animals, in the Hebrew it literally reads that he gave the animals their characteristics among other things. His cosmic power over the material plane was broken, and he became trapped in a shattered material plane spiraling downward in an entropic death spiral separated from the One who had the power to maintain it in its perfection (the SNAFU).

Adam, (the human species) as a generational creature (the species having the privilege of perpetuating itself by procreation) something that other sapients beings (seraphs, cherubs, ophans, anaks, etc (usually translated angels) cannot do (without breaking themselves permanently by altering their own physiology). As a generational species we are born in the broken state of the Cosmos (spiritually dead). Those born into it are made of the stuff of the Cosmos (broken, separated from God, and longing for that which we do not know). We are all subject to it.

This broken Cosmos will be renovated by God and everything woven into the fabric of the Cosmos (including us, as we have no means within ourselves to escape) will be destroyed upon the renewal to a state of Holiness (a spiritual living state no longer subject to deprivation and absence of good in Liberty and innocence (no harm done or being done). The weave of brokeness (sin, error, death, disease, rot, deprivation of good etc.), will be tossed into the Universal Incinerator (the Lake of Fire).

But God in is love, sent a second Adam (Jesus Christ), to save those that would call upon Him to be saved (transferred out of the restricted physical state that we are trapped, and re-enter the renovated Cosmos. We are generated spiritually by God’s grace. Those who continue in the rebellion in their obstreperousness and recalcitrance end up in a hell of their own making. This (Hell) as it is broken, will itself be tossed into the Lake of Fire (the Universal Trash Heap).

God doesn’t send people kicking and screaming into Hell. One goes to Hell because he refuses the offer of salvation out of his brokenness. He would rather cling to the brokenness of the weave, than call on God for transformation out of it. God sends people to Hell because they chose to remain in the broken circuitry of the malfunctioning holodeck program that our forbears sabotaged, and we are stuck in. When the circuitry is renovated we will not be a part of it -- we will remain in our broken state of our own making, discarded in a Universal trash heap..

(the small caps function doesn't work in NS. i will have to fix it tomorrow).

Auxorii

Auxorii wrote:That’s a mistranslation of the hebrew word ra; a more accurate translation would be:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things”

Just watch out when talking religion with these guys because they will take your ass out of context if it helps them in the debate. They actually don't have any idea what they are talking about

Simply wishes people a happy holiday, starts a holy war

Kongeriget Island wrote:Just watch out when talking religion with these guys because they will take your ass out of context if it helps them in the debate. They actually don't have any idea what they are talking about

I’m not worried about anything like that - everyone deserves to hear about the true glory of God and I believe it’s capable of moving anyone.

Auxorii wrote:I’m not worried about anything like that - everyone deserves to hear about the true glory of God and I believe it’s capable of moving anyone.

"Spooky, bearded sky man is gonna torture you forever because you don't know he exists."

Rateria

In 3 hours and 20 minutes (3:00 PM PST), the Constitutional Convention will be officially held on the regional discord server on a specified channel.

All who wish to fully participate must be present at the opening roll call of the Convention.

Long live the Republic.

Rateria

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:No, I mean God. That's what I wrote.

I hate when people talk like I'm not even here.

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:"Spooky, bearded sky man is gonna torture you forever because you don't know he exists."

Nobody cannot look at nature, the nature of things, and the nature of nature and not come to the rational conclusion that there is a Supreme Being. Something begets something. Nothing begets nothing. Everything that is perceived as nothing is either a deprivation of degrees of something, or an absence of a thing in and of itself. There is no true nothingness. Because there is something, there cannot be true nothing. Plato's prime mover, yada, yada... No one can say they don't know that the god of creation exists without asserting that nothing can produce nothing (logically impossible), or that the material universe has the attributes needed to create itself (logically and physically impossible). The five Classical arguments are sufficiently reasonable to deduce that only God can be God.

That being said, Spooky bearded sky man cannot be the God that created the Universe, as the true and living God would not torture someone forever, as that would violate His nature. The person who finds himself in Hell (and then the Lake of Fire) is tormented (among many things but one of which) by the fact that he could have chosen otherwise. The torments are all of the condemned's own making.

The punishment of Hell is no more or less than the person deserves -- eternal separation from God and his attributes. It he wanted to draw close to God, even if he didn't know that God existed, God will reveal Himself to him. Those that do not want God, or what He stands for, will not receive God, even with the dire warning that Hell is what awaits.

Skaveria wrote:"Spooky, bearded sky man is gonna torture you forever because you don't know he exists."

I can see Monty Python doing a bit on this.

Guy dies, wakes up at the gates of heaven, there's a line, and finally he gets to the gate and he's all like "where the hell am I?" the angels or whoever laugh and theyre like, "You dont know where you are?" and it goes on and eventually he says he doesnt know who god is/what christianity is and they spend the next like 5-6 minutes arguing about it, shocked that an average guy from England has never heard of god or jesus.

Rateria, Skaveria, Highway Eighty-Eight

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Narland wrote:Nobody cannot look at nature, the nature of things, and the nature of nature and not come to the rational conclusion that there is a Supreme Being. Something begets something. Nothing begets nothing. Everything that is perceived as nothing is either a deprivation of degrees of something, or an absence of a thing in and of itself. There is no true nothingness. Because there is something, there cannot be true nothing. Plato's prime mover, yada, yada... No one can say they don't know that the god of creation exists without asserting that nothing can produce nothing (logically impossible), or that the material universe has the attributes needed to create itself (logically and physically impossible). The five Classical arguments are sufficiently reasonable to deduce that only God can be God.

That being said, Spooky bearded sky man cannot be the God that created the Universe, as the true and living God would not torture someone forever, as that would violate His nature. The person who finds himself in Hell (and then the Lake of Fire) is tormented (among many things but one of which) by the fact that he could have chosen otherwise. The torments are all of the condemned's own making.

The punishment of Hell is no more or less than the person deserves -- eternal separation from God and his attributes. It he wanted to draw close to God, even if he didn't know that God existed, God will reveal Himself to him. Those that do not want God, or what He stands for, will not receive God, even with the dire warning that Hell is what awaits.

Why does the prime mover have a consciousness? Would it not be simpler to suggest that time and space have always existed and those things crashing into each other is what created the universe?

If God is the ultimate representation of the good, would a person seeking the good not accidentally find God? Can one be saved accidentally? The whole premise of the argument is that when one seeks good, one finds God, but why? It seems irrational to assume that.

Eternal punishment for finite sins is inherently evil. If your version of hell is tame enough to simply mean seperation from the devine, that'd be one thing, but the lake of fire is another. A Buddhist monk lights himself on fire, sacrificing himself for his people, only to be cast down into darkness and fire?

This reason is why I'll always be skeptical of Christianity and Islam. There's an inherent overcorrection in terms of punishment that is on it's face, abhorrent.

Rateria

Narland wrote:Nobody cannot look at nature, the nature of things, and the nature of nature and not come to the rational conclusion that there is a Supreme Being. Something begets something. Nothing begets nothing. Everything that is perceived as nothing is either a deprivation of degrees of something, or an absence of a thing in and of itself. There is no true nothingness. Because there is something, there cannot be true nothing. Plato's prime mover, yada, yada... No one can say they don't know that the god of creation exists without asserting that nothing can produce nothing (logically impossible), or that the material universe has the attributes needed to create itself (logically and physically impossible). The five Classical arguments are sufficiently reasonable to deduce that only God can be God.

But then whence comes God?

There need not have ever been nothing - this is the concept behind the singularity origin theory, that the universe itself existed but compressed to a remarkably dense form.

This of course then raises the question of when time started. If time has always been, then whatever is the origin of matter has also always been, but if time had a beginning, then anything before then really doesn't matter simply because it's a time in which time did not yet exist - and in order to say that something began to exist, or has always existed, time must also exist.

Suppose, for example, that the Big Bang itself is the beginning of time. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what caused the Big Bang because its cause is temporally located prior to time itself - but even so, any external cause for it must have existed outside of matter as well as outside of time, because all matter was located in a single point. This, therefore, requires that any external cause for the beginning of time (and thus the universe) come from nothing in and of itself. But if that's true and the universe did have an external cause... then why could the universe itself not have come from nothing?

And if the cause of the beginning of time does not exist independently of time and space, then logically in order for it to cause the beginning of time it itself must have always existed. So then why could the universe itself not have always existed?

Of course, since it will never be possible to measure anything before the beginning of time, it ultimately doesn't matter what anyone says caused time to begin. At the instant time begins to exist, any matter that existed then has existed always, regardless of where it came from and whether its existence predates time, thus rendering the concern of whether or not it came from nothing irrelevant. It doesn't matter where anything that existed at the beginning of time came from, because by definition there was never a time in which it did not exist. Anything to explain what occurred in the time before time is little more than a thought experiment that can never actually give an answer for what caused time and space to begin to exist.

Shallowell, Rateria

Ahh, this is the type of content I came back to NS for

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria

Skaveria wrote:Why does the prime mover have a consciousness? Would it not be simpler to suggest that time and space have always existed and those things crashing into each other is what created the universe?

If God is the ultimate representation of the good, would a person seeking the good not accidentally find God? Can one be saved accidentally? The whole premise of the argument is that when one seeks good, one finds God, but why? It seems irrational to assume that.

Eternal punishment for finite sins is inherently evil. If your version of hell is tame enough to simply mean seperation from the devine, that'd be one thing, but the lake of fire is another. A Buddhist monk lights himself on fire, sacrificing himself for his people, only to be cast down into darkness and fire?

This reason is why I'll always be skeptical of Christianity and Islam. There's an inherent overcorrection in terms of punishment that is on it's face, abhorrent.

That is a separate issue and a very good question. Once one recognizes that it is rational and reasonable to assert that their is an uncaused causeless first cause, the next question should be, "What is the nature of this Prime Mover."

I am needing to call it a night, and will have some time tomorrow to get back on and type responses. :)

Miencraft wrote:But then whence comes God?

There need not have ever been nothing - this is the concept behind the singularity origin theory, that the universe itself existed but compressed to a remarkably dense form.

This of course then raises the question of when time started. If time has always been, then whatever is the origin of matter has also always been, but if time had a beginning, then anything before then really doesn't matter simply because it's a time in which time did not yet exist - and in order to say that something began to exist, or has always existed, time must also exist.

Suppose, for example, that the Big Bang itself is the beginning of time. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what caused the Big Bang because its cause is temporally located prior to time itself - but even so, any external cause for it must have existed outside of matter as well as outside of time, because all matter was located in a single point. This, therefore, requires that any external cause for the beginning of time (and thus the universe) come from nothing in and of itself. But if that's true and the universe did have an external cause... then why could the universe itself not have come from nothing?

And if the cause of the beginning of time does not exist independently of time and space, then logically in order for it to cause the beginning of time it itself must have always existed. So then why could the universe itself not have always existed?

Of course, since it will never be possible to measure anything before the beginning of time, it ultimately doesn't matter what anyone says caused time to begin. At the instant time begins to exist, any matter that existed then has existed always, regardless of where it came from and whether its existence predates time, thus rendering the concern of whether or not it came from nothing irrelevant. It doesn't matter where anything that existed at the beginning of time came from, because by definition there was never a time in which it did not exist. Anything to explain what occurred in the time before time is little more than a thought experiment that can never actually give an answer for what caused time and space to begin to exist.

I am glad we can discuss these things like rational human beings. Question everything, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. A bit of skepticism is good.

If logic (little l) could save us, there would be no need for the book of Romans (which is one of its theses).

I am needing to call it a night, and will have some time tomorrow to get back on and type responses. :)

Miencraft, Rateria

You Black Hawks are some weird folks.

Rateria

I have the 49th least corrupt government

Why is everyone I watch on YouTube taking the political compass test now? That test is four years old and very inaccurate.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:You're four years old and inaccurate.

ur mum

Muh Roads

what happened here?

Suzi Island wrote:what happened here?

ur mum

Muh Roads

[spoiler=New poll in Zentari. Come and vote!]When Do You Think the COVID-19 Pandemic Will End and We Return to Normalcy?[/spoiler]

Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Roads loves mums.

Miencraft

Skaveria wrote:Why is everyone I watch on YouTube taking the political compass test now? That test is four years old and very inaccurate.

What would you suggest taking

Miri Islands wrote:What would you suggest taking

The most comprehensive is ISideWith. It doesn't plot you on a graph, but it shows you percentages of parties and people you agree with. I typically get Libertarian, with the Constitution Party as a close second, followed by the GOP, and the Greens and Democrats fighting for last place.

Another more comprehensive test is 8-Values, PolitiScales is good too. Spectr is ok. Basically anything besides The Political Compass. The problem is that certain questions on that test pertain to your cultural/ethical outlook, while others are policy questions. It also makes certain assumptions in the way the questions are written that require clarification.

Miencraft, Narland

Skaveria wrote:Why is everyone I watch on YouTube taking the political compass test now? That test is four years old and very inaccurate.

they’re four years behind the times

Skaveria wrote:The most comprehensive is ISideWith. It doesn't plot you on a graph, but it shows you percentages of parties and people you agree with. I typically get Libertarian, with the Constitution Party as a close second, followed by the GOP, and the Greens and Democrats fighting for last place.

Another more comprehensive test is 8-Values, PolitiScales is good too. Spectr is ok. Basically anything besides The Political Compass. The problem is that certain questions on that test pertain to your cultural/ethical outlook, while others are policy questions. It also makes certain assumptions in the way the questions are written that require clarification.

But do any of those other tests have a rap song written about them?

Suzi Island wrote:But do any of those other tests have a rap song written about them?

Ah, Jreg

Suzi Island

The priority of the next President of the United States must be to disassemble the Deep State; we should abolish the CIA and NSA and have all intelligence gathering done by the military. Our media and the entertainment we consume is streamlined directly from our intelligence agencies - and at the same time, they watch over us as Big Brother and read through our texts, emails and spy on us in other gross and unimaginable ways. This Deep State is who really controls the government, most of the politicians who are elected are just figureheads for the corporations that funneled absurd amounts of money into their campaign in the hope of an exchange of political favours. Our economy is rigged by huge and trans-national corporations; overturn Citizens United, break up monopolies like Disney and establish term limits amongst our elected public officials. The Federal Reserve must be audited and we must take control over our own currency - I’m not sure if a return to the gold standard is the solution, but we must end fiat currency and the abuse of banking in this nation; the Federal Reserve must be nationalized and reestablished as a national banking service to Americans.

Narland, Jadentopian Order

Auxorii wrote:The priority of the next President of the United States must be to disassemble the Deep State; we should abolish the CIA and NSA and have all intelligence gathering done by the military. Our media and the entertainment we consume is streamlined directly from our intelligence agencies - and at the same time, they watch over us as Big Brother and read through our texts, emails and spy on us in other gross and unimaginable ways. This Deep State is who really controls the government, most of the politicians who are elected are just figureheads for the corporations that funneled absurd amounts of money into their campaign in the hope of an exchange of political favours. Our economy is rigged by huge and trans-national corporations; overturn Citizens United, break up monopolies like Disney and establish term limits amongst our elected public officials. The Federal Reserve must be audited and we must take control over our own currency - I’m not sure if a return to the gold standard is the solution, but we must end fiat currency and the abuse of banking in this nation; the Federal Reserve must be nationalized and reestablished as a national banking service to Americans.

The American public really needs to know more about just how awful the CIA is. Genuinely one of the worst organizations of all time.

Pevvania, Narland, Auxorii, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:The American public really needs to know more about just how awful the CIA is. Genuinely one of the worst organizations of all time.

mKuLtRa iS a cOnSpiRaCy tHeoRy tHe govErnMenT wOulD neVer drUg pEople unKnoWingLy, WhAt do yOu MeAn the Tuskegee expErimeNt?

Rateria

The United States Of Patriots wrote:mKuLtRa iS a cOnSpiRaCy tHeoRy tHe govErnMenT wOulD neVer drUg pEople unKnoWingLy, WhAt do yOu MeAn the Tuskegee expErimeNt?

When I'm not fliering for the LP, my favorites are a blank sheet with phrases like "Google MK-Ultra, Ruby Rudge, WACO, ect."

Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

The United States Of Patriots wrote:mKuLtRa iS a cOnSpiRaCy tHeoRy tHe govErnMenT wOulD neVer drUg pEople unKnoWingLy, WhAt do yOu MeAn the Tuskegee expErimeNt?

Skaveria wrote:When I'm not fliering for the LP, my favorites are a blank sheet with phrases like "Google MK-Ultra, Ruby Rudge, WACO, ect."

I'm so glad we can agree on this lol. When the CIA isn't finding governments to overthrow and start genocides, it's finding new ways to abuse citizens in its own country.

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Jadentopian Order wrote:I'm so glad we can agree on this lol. When the CIA isn't finding governments to overthrow and start genocides, it's finding new ways to abuse citizens in its own country.

We probably agree on 90% of things. It's just the 10% gets contentious sometimes.

Narland, Rateria, Jadentopian Order

Skaveria wrote:We probably agree on 90% of things. It's just the 10% gets contentious sometimes.

Most of us are at least libertarian minded to some extent, wouldn't be fun if we agreed on everything

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, Skaveria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Who would have guessed bowling would become such a contentious topic in 2020. Weird times.

Narland

Auxorii wrote:The priority of the next President of the United States must be to disassemble the Deep State; we should abolish the CIA and NSA and have all intelligence gathering done by the military. Our media and the entertainment we consume is streamlined directly from our intelligence agencies - and at the same time, they watch over us as Big Brother and read through our texts, emails and spy on us in other gross and unimaginable ways. This Deep State is who really controls the government, most of the politicians who are elected are just figureheads for the corporations that funneled absurd amounts of money into their campaign in the hope of an exchange of political favours. Our economy is rigged by huge and trans-national corporations; overturn Citizens United, break up monopolies like Disney and establish term limits amongst our elected public officials. The Federal Reserve must be audited and we must take control over our own currency - I’m not sure if a return to the gold standard is the solution, but we must end fiat currency and the abuse of banking in this nation; the Federal Reserve must be nationalized and reestablished as a national banking service to Americans.

I am now interested and want to learn more about these positions and other statements.

Suzi Island wrote:Who would have guessed bowling would become such a contentious topic in 2020. Weird times.

"If you bowl you literally want people to die"

The United States Of Patriots wrote:"If you bowl you literally want people to die"

A perfect representation of the twitnits on twitter

That lady who claims to have drunk Chloroquine with her husband 100% murdered her husband.

Ding dong the Kim is dead

That awkard moment when Belarus has more freedom than some states

Narland

Hi. I'm a classical liberal who would like to join this region.

Narland, Rateria, Bieva

Fitnessgramistan wrote:Hi. I'm a classical liberal who would like to join this region.

I dunno I think first you will have to tell us in depth your opinions on the PACER(TM) test

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, Fitnessgramistan

The United States Of Patriots wrote:I dunno I think first you will have to tell us in depth your opinions on the PACER(TM) test

The pacer test is key! More important than the push up, curl up, and whatever-else-there-was-I-forget portions of Fitnessgram! You need that test for life!

Joking aside, I'm not a fan of Fitnessgram because it's just another standardized test, which already are not indicative of student achievement, and unlike other standardized tests, people will know how you performed because you perform the test with the rest of the class. And kids can be jerks. Especially in PE class.

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria

Somebody ban this nation please, no PACER tests should be allowed in any civilized region!

Rateria, Fitnessgramistan

Fitnessgramistan wrote:Hi. I'm a classical liberal who would like to join this region.

Welcome, friend.

Narland, Rateria, Fitnessgramistan

Has anyone here had the "Down the Rabbit Hole" issue before (no. 676)? Just dismissed it because all the options were insane 😂

Bieva wrote:Has anyone here had the "Down the Rabbit Hole" issue before (no. 676)? Just dismissed it because all the options were insane 😂

I have not

Bieva wrote:Has anyone here had the "Down the Rabbit Hole" issue before (no. 676)? Just dismissed it because all the options were insane 😂

I have not

Fitnessgramistan wrote:Hi. I'm a classical liberal who would like to join this region.

Welcome, we're mostly Libertarians here, but classical liberals fit right in.

Narland, Auxorii, Rateria, Fitnessgramistan

Fitnessgramistan wrote:Hi. I'm a classical liberal who would like to join this region.

Welcome!

Narland, Rateria, Fitnessgramistan

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Written by Refuge Isle.