Post Archive

Region: Libertatem

History

Lack There Of wrote:If this is the essence of the charges pressed upon TTA I would request all charges be dropped. This renegade expedition was lead by another nation and attacked a region we are allegedly on peaceful terms with due to their left libertarian ideology. In addition to gaining the aid of admittedly fascist forces to help in the coup Minervia did not withdraw immediately after being informed of his mistake. Minervia's later apologies do not make up for the grievous errors which cost the region serious face in the NS community and warranted an attempted WA condemnation via the victims of this mistake. This attack also called into question our standing with the UCR and other left communists in NS and further endangered the other members of REATO leading to the weakening of that organization.

TTA was able to end the raid and bring appropriate attention to this matter. While not done in an orthodox way, this was the most effective way possible considering that our President was not onlie and the leadership of the raid clearly had no intentions of backing down at that time. Furthermore, he has been the victim of serious slander over the past days due to his actions, which by all means MATCHED our policies regarding attacks on left-libertarian regions.

These attacks are largely inaccurate and unnecessary attacks on his character and his actions.

I propose all charges be dropped and an investigation be initiated regarding the breakdown in communication that allowed this mockery to take place. Furthermore, Minervia ought to be removed from any position that would allow him to create further havoc on behalf our region.

Thank you Lack.

Pevvania wrote:An attack on our military is an attack on Libertatem.

I didn't attack a military. The raid wasn't hosted by the region. It was hosted by one man whom might I add is not a minister.

Pevvania wrote:An attack on our military is an attack on Libertatem.

apparently not,

Republic Of Minerva wrote:I hold no position. I speak for nobody.

You have turned against yourselves, Libertatem gets weaker every minute. HEHEHE...

I had not spoke for anybody since I started raiding. Only recently had I started applying Libertatem labels to my regions, but if that causes too much trouble I can act only for my own interests.

Lack, what exactly does that mean? "apparently not"

Aka blame me, not the region

Pevvania wrote:Minerva made a mistake and acknowledged it. TTA helped our enemies to attack our troops. It doesn't matter if the raid was poorly conceived or immoral. TTA attacked our troops. He didn't even apologise for it. He didn't say that he had to stop the situation from getting any worse, he took the raid as an 'act of imperialism', deliberately colluded with other regions and attacked us. He has clearly violated the law and may even be liable to a permanent ban. But right now, all options are on the table.

I will consult the Attorney-General on the matter and on when the trial should begin, but I will not support charging Minerva. He has not broken the law, and has contributed greatly to our region in the short time he's been here and is a generally brilliant military commander.

After scouring the recorded laws of our region I can find no clear definition of treason to charge anyone for any offense. Furthermore, after reviewing the ARMA legislation, I find that both our current and former Manager of Military Affairs to have failed to meet the standards set by the law. If ARMA had been followed this entire debacle could have been avoided.

Humpheria wrote:Lack, what exactly does that mean? "apparently not"

The first statement indicates that the attack was against a group from Libertatem, however Minervia has continually proclaimed that he acted independently and that the region was not involved officially.

Aye, I believe there were 3 people helping me that were not from Libertatem, including a random guy that decided to help me mid raid (not the Fash)

I admit I shouldn't have tagged the region as Libertatem, although I was trying to establish a recognizable pattern.

That's better use laws. Now, while they're may not be legal specifications we are bringing up the evidence of a priori assumption. Lack, can we count on you as being the legal counsel for TTA in this trial. He needs a Citizen to defend him. You seem to have a knack for it. If so, I volunteer to take the prosecution while Lone Star presides. Assuming, he approves the case. I think we should get this done.

Humpheria wrote:That's better use laws. Now, while they're may not be legal specifications we are bringing up the evidence of a priori assumption. Lack, can we count on you as being the legal counsel for TTA in this trial. He needs a Citizen to defend him. You seem to have a knack for it. If so, I volunteer to take the prosecution while Lone Star presides. Assuming, he approves the case. I think we should get this done.

He asked. I already accepted Lacks Help to represent me in the trial.

Humpheria wrote:That's better use laws. Now, while they're may not be legal specifications we are bringing up the evidence of a priori assumption. Lack, can we count on you as being the legal counsel for TTA in this trial. He needs a Citizen to defend him. You seem to have a knack for it. If so, I volunteer to take the prosecution while Lone Star presides. Assuming, he approves the case. I think we should get this done.

I have already extended such an offer, but honestly there is no basis for a legal prosecution

As I said. There is no definition of treason in our laws, so as in real life, this trial will set the precedent. The prosecution defends the charges on a legal basis of a priori assumption. An assumption that has enough evidence to be excepted as a basis. I also request that someone not directly involved in the incident assist me on the prosecution. I warn you Lack, I am a student of law at university. This is my life. ;)

I personally pardon TTA for his actions, if that makes a difference.

I will leave that up to the Attorney General or the President as it appears that Lone Star isn't active right now.

But I didn't press the charges, so I can't drop them, that's up to the government. I just want to prosecute if we have a trial.

I can't leave for a blasted day without seeing half the regions I'm in erupt into argument.

Republic Of Minerva wrote:I personally pardon TTA for his actions, if that makes a difference.

I don't >:(

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:I can't leave for a blasted day without seeing half the regions I'm in erupt into argument.

You'd better watch out, you'll be next for shirking your duties, lol

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:I can't leave for a blasted day without seeing half the regions I'm in erupt into argument.

This^^^ Literally the story of my life. Except half the time I'm part of it.

Lack There Of wrote:You'd better watch out, you'll be next for shirking your duties, lol

Looks like someone wants a pink slip. (Just Kidding, Probably)

I doubt that my opinion counts for much, but I'll contribute my two cents, anyhow:

I'd like to see TTA pardoned.

The New United States wrote:I doubt that my opinion counts for much, but I'll contribute my two cents, anyhow:

I'd like to see TTA pardoned.

just why

I love yall.

I will post my opinion tomorrow, if it still matters.. but going to bed for now. Night!

The New United States wrote:I doubt that my opinion counts for much, but I'll contribute my two cents, anyhow:

I'd like to see TTA pardoned.

What! *facepalm*

He commited treason. He should not be pardoned.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:What! *facepalm*

He commited treason. He should not be pardoned.

Equally, if not more upsetting is the less than ideal job our Manager of Military Affairs did on this one. If he had acted in accordance with the provisions of the ARMA act this entire situation could have been avoided.

Lack There Of wrote:Equally, if not more upsetting is the less than ideal job our Manager of Military Affairs did on this one. If he had acted in accordance with the provisions of the ARMA act this entire situation could have been avoided.

A fair point.

If a sizeable majority call for a pardon of TTA, then I'll consider it. But I will not return his citizenship status.

Pevvania wrote:If a sizeable majority call for a pardon of TTA, then I'll consider it. But I will not return his citizenship status.

This is exactly where i stand^

I can appreciate what TTA has done in some respects, standing up for what you believe in is a noble thing to do. But what wasn't noble was his method of standing up against us. Fact is, TTA could have used another method of dealing with the issue. For example, bringing charges against Minerva, sending TG's to Pev or Neo-con ETC. I understand he did post on the RMB. I think that is where it should have left off. But instead, TTA decided to fight against the very region he calls home. His single endorsement would have had no way been the turning factor in Communist Beach, especially considering all the Communist nations that came to their "rescue".

If TTA is so quick to stand up against our military in regional affairs like his track record shows, then he does not need to be a part of the military or governing body and poses a threat to national security. Lastly, I do not feel that TTA has any pride in Libertatem. He joined this region knowing exactly what we do, and if not had learned very quickly. He is consistently switching back and forth between communist regions, and this is a bit bothersome in my opinion. Why TTA sticks around is his own business, but i will not have a such a huge security threat in Libertatem. I like TTA on a personal level, but i hate to say that i will support banjection. If that is not a popular thing with the populace then fine, but he is not getting citizenship status back.

Post self-deleted by Pevvania.

If the pardons have it, than I would have no issue with letting him stay. I am in agreement with Muh.

I'll close the VETO vote early. The Board and House have voted unanimously for it. *Pats self on back*

Managers: 3/3

Board: 5/5

House: 6/6

As President, I am choosing to [B]sign[/B] the VETO Act into law.

As a long-time lurker, I support pardoning TTA and allowing him to keep his citizenship. If citizenship is to be removed, there ought to be a trial.

For as much pearl-clutching over TTA's actions, what of Minerva's associating us with fascists? I've noticed there does seem to be a double-standard here when dealing with the twin-totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism. For example, why the hell do we keep an embassy with "Apartheid South Africa," an explicitly racist region? Is that something this region condones?

I think Libertatem has certainly earned its "anti-communist" credibility. There ought to be a discussion as to whether or not this region lives up to its "anti-fascist" tag.

Funkytopia wrote:As a long-time lurker, I support pardoning TTA and allowing him to keep his citizenship. If citizenship is to be removed, there ought to be a trial.

For as much pearl-clutching over TTA's actions, what of Minerva's associating us with fascists? I've noticed there does seem to be a double-standard here when dealing with the twin-totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism. For example, why the hell do we keep an embassy with "Apartheid South Africa," an explicitly racist region? Is that something this region condones?

I think Libertatem has certainly earned its "anti-communist" credibility. There ought to be a discussion as to whether or not this region lives up to its "anti-fascist" tag.

We've had a couple of these questions answered already. But let me do my best here.

According to the FRAUD act, the Manager of Internal Affairs or the President can revoke citizenship anytime. That is not the same thing as being banjected.

Minerva did not ask for the fascists help.

Apartheid south africa was at one time removed, until we found out they don't technically support apartheid, just that the time under apartheid was better than under their current political system. It's a symbolic, not a racist name.

This is the sort of trash found on Apartheid S. Africa's message board:

"Hello everyone, I'm not an african, but I do support the suppression of degenerate savages. I hope I can be accepted into this region."

Excuse me if I miss the symbolism. Is that something our region would permit on our message board?

If this does go to trial here, I have many viewpoints, and would be glad to prosecute.

Funkytopia wrote:This is the sort of trash found on Apartheid S. Africa's message board:

"Hello everyone, I'm not an african, but I do support the suppression of degenerate savages. I hope I can be accepted into this region."

Excuse me if I miss the symbolism. Is that something our region would permit on our message board?

Im not saying I personally support them, but we did have a rep here that explained things quite well.

And yes, we would permit that on our RMB. Free speech and all.

If anyone else has a story or account of what happened, I want to know. TG me with that. Thank you,

Ankha

Im interested in knowing the counter points. The way I've seen it so far.. the arguements in TTA's favor are simply moralistic. TTA broke the law, end of story.

So Muh Roads, do you have a full account of the story, anyway, Id like your opinion, If you would...

Ankhora wrote:So Muh Roads, do you have a full account of the story, anyway, Id like your opinion, If you would...

I don't have first hand experience. I've read through multiple RMB's and got the jist of what happened. From my account it appeared as such:

Minerva planned the tag raid, invited TTA and some others. Communist beach was being raided when TTA found out that CB was a L-L region. He pleaded with minerva to stop the raid and Minerva replied I'll think about it. defenders came to CB and were successful in doing such. TTA helped the defenders.

Also, evidently fascists came to aid Minerva without permission.

So, who was the WORST offender involved?

Ankhora wrote:So, who was the WORST offender involved?

There were mistakes on all ends. In my opinion both parties are equally at fault.

However, Minerva did not commit treason and I'm not sure if he worked outside of ARMA or not.

Muh Roads wrote:There were mistakes on all ends. In my opinion both parties are equally at fault.

I dont mean out of Minerva and TTA, just out of them all.

Ankhora wrote:I dont mean out of Minerva and TTA, just out of them all.
What else is there? You want me to put blame out on Libertatem or UCR? I won't make that decision sir. No disrespect intended.

Isn't this region responsible for the actions of this raiding party?

If so, Libertatem is responsible for an act of war on a libertarian region. If not, then by what right could this raiding party claim to be Libertatem's troops? (ie. how can anyone claim it was treason, if the raiding party doesn't even represent our region?)

Funkytopia wrote:Isn't this region responsible for the actions of this raiding party?

If so, Libertatem is responsible for an act of war on a libertarian region. If not, then by what right could this raiding party claim to be Libertatem's troops? (ie. how can anyone claim it was treason, if the raiding party doesn't even represent our region?)

Thank you.

I can't attack someone who wasn't represented in the raid.

Muh Roads wrote:What else is there? You want me to put blame out on Libertatem or UCR? I won't make that decision sir. No disrespect intended.

NO, I want to know who was involved and who wasnt out of this list...

-[nation=No Borders]

-[nation=Sine Reges]

-[nation=Rightist America]

-[nation=The Time Alliance]

-[nation=Bundabunda]

-[nation=U N M]

-[nation=Sween]

-[nation=Angry Yak]

-[nation=Jainism in Nationstates]

-[nation=Granitsa]

-[nation=Slave Camp]

-[nation=Marxist-Feminists]

-[nation=Beschutzer]

-[nation=Koksan M-1978]

-[nation=Vardakia]

-[nation=The Great Debatertron]

-[nation=Mig-25 Foxbat]

-[nation=Soviet Riasy]

-[nation=M1973 Sinhung]

-[nation=FROG-7]

-[nation=Kim Il-Sungistan]

-[nation=Nova Democratic Serbia]

-[nation=SA-3 GOA]

-[nation=Pumppie]

-[nation=Button 3]

-[nation=Libetarian Theocracies]

-[nation=Tesegos]

-[nation=Ernezrefae]

-[nation=Captain Fishmonger Reynolds]

-[nation=UPS Air Cargo]

-[nation=The Bamboo Cutter]

-[nation=Just one more nation]

-[nation=Gyarados]

-[nation=Edova]

-[nation=The AK-47]

-[nation=Arvantia]

-[nation=Glrit]

-[nation=Asdfasfasfd]

Someone was the leader, some were citizens....

I believe [nation=no borders] was the leader.

Sir, for the final time. You will find nothing here. Our region was not involved. Your insistence on carrying out your own personal accomplishments by soliciting our Citizens has gotten quite tiresome. You are an agent gathering information for an independent trial in a region that is not our own. We are willing to cooperate as we are friends, but you repeatedly bothering people that had nothing to do with it is getting old. If you haven't gathered the information yet, then maybe they should reconsider their appointment with someone more effective. You have been here for days pounding our Citizens, who don't know anything, with the same question. Please just stop repeating yourself, it's rather annoying.

I think I'm going to pardon TTA. This matter is dragging on too long and is causing divisions in the region. We need to put this fiasco behind us.

Humpheria wrote:Sir, for the final time. You will find nothing here. Our region was not involved. Your insistence on carrying out your own personal accomplishments by soliciting our Citizens has gotten quite tiresome. You are an agent gathering information for an independent trial in a region that is not our own. We are willing to cooperate as we are friends, but you repeatedly bothering people that had nothing to do with it is getting old. If you haven't gathered the information yet, then maybe they should reconsider their appointment with someone more effective. You have been here for days pounding our Citizens, who don't know anything, with the same question. Please just stop repeating yourself, it's rather annoying.

Perhaps you are right. Thank you.

Pevvania wrote:I think I'm going to pardon TTA. This matter is dragging on too long and is causing divisions in the region. We need to put this fiasco behind us.

Then we need to have a discussion on the future of his citizenship.

Can I get citizenship here?

I'm only going to say this once, ARMA was created so that this type of event does not happen. If you are going to conduct an independent raid then fine, BUT DO NOT GET LIBERTATEM INVOLVED. Procedure for a proper raid is clearly listed in ARMA. We do not want a repeat of these events.

Ankhora wrote:NO, I want to know who was involved and who wasnt out of this list...

-[nation=No Borders]

-[nation=Sine Reges]

-[nation=Rightist America]

-[nation=The Time Alliance]

-[nation=Bundabunda]

-[nation=U N M]

-[nation=Sween]

-[nation=Angry Yak]

-[nation=Jainism in Nationstates]

-[nation=Granitsa]

-[nation=Slave Camp]

-[nation=Marxist-Feminists]

-[nation=Beschutzer]

-[nation=Koksan M-1978]

-[nation=Vardakia]

-[nation=The Great Debatertron]

-[nation=Mig-25 Foxbat]

-[nation=Soviet Riasy]

-[nation=M1973 Sinhung]

-[nation=FROG-7]

-[nation=Kim Il-Sungistan]

-[nation=Nova Democratic Serbia]

-[nation=SA-3 GOA]

-[nation=Pumppie]

-[nation=Button 3]

-[nation=Libetarian Theocracies]

-[nation=Tesegos]

-[nation=Ernezrefae]

-[nation=Captain Fishmonger Reynolds]

-[nation=UPS Air Cargo]

-[nation=The Bamboo Cutter]

-[nation=Just one more nation]

-[nation=Gyarados]

-[nation=Edova]

-[nation=The AK-47]

-[nation=Arvantia]

-[nation=Glrit]

-[nation=Asdfasfasfd]

Someone was the leader, some were citizens....

I believe [nation=no borders] was the leader.

These nations fought for and against the occupation of CB.They couldn't be led by one person.

The Time Alliance wrote:These nations fought for and against the occupation of CB.They couldn't be led by one person.

I know. But the raid, not the defense....

Ankhora wrote:Can I get citizenship here?

Please read the FRAUD act then apply when applicable. The FRAUD act can be seen in the laws of Libertatem link in the WFE and the application will be found in my factbook.

From what I understand, TTA defended a libertarian-left region from fascists and rogue Libertatines, who acted as though they were on an official mission. (Please, correct me if I misinterpreted what I've read.)

I don't think TTA should be stripped of citizenship. He did the right thing.

Right now Libertatem is being assailed on the message boards of other regions, including two regions who have pulled out of REATO. That is because of the actions of the raiding party, not because of TTA. The response would be even worse if the raiders had succeeded in permanently taking control of CB.

TTA acted in the best interests and in accordance to our best principles. He shouldn't lose his citizenship for it.

Indeed. If anything, those responsible for the planning of this raid must be held accountable.

I will consider a limited citizen revocation as opposed to a permanent one. I'd just like to put this matter behind us.

Now, time for some RP.

President Bagell is announcing deep cuts to the Pevvanian Defence Force in his upcoming March budget, on top of other cuts to the Department of Justice, the Fire Department and other areas. The announcement comes two weeks after the capture in Melbourne of General Daryll Murdoch, a major official in the former Australian Nationalist military junta. He was a fugitive for nearly two decades, wanted for war crimes in the Pevvania-Australia War 18 years ago.

The national budget has been balanced for the past 15 years.

In other RP news:

Miencraftic presidential elections this November, candidates are all announced and everything.

President Scriptorium won't seek re-election.

A message from the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

Attention, regions of NationStates!

It has come to my attention that the region of Libertatem has come under scrutiny from its allies and enemies alike for its alleged involvement in the Communist Beach crisis.

I have three announcements to make in response to this.

First of all, the raid was not coordinated by Libertatem; the government officials were not involved (and very few were notified) in the raid conducted by a combination of Libertatem citizens and outside aid, and led by Republic of Minerva, who does not have a high rank in the regional military. The region's official raids are solely against targets who infringe upon freedom more than any attempt of invasion would; the libertarians and centrists of NationStates need not fear Libertatem nor REATO. However, in accordance with the liberty the region offers its members, its citizens were permitted to invade Communist Beach and realized their mistake in doing so too late.

Second of all, Libertatem - despite its lack of involvement - has taken the blame for this issue in order to soften the impact this has on the interregional community. Following the invasion and subsequent liberation of Communist Beach, the region hosted a peace summit with their libertarian communist allies in UCR. They formed and signed a treaty that would prevent tragedies like the Communist Beach incident from occurring in the future, and ensuring the protection of all regions defending personal freedom and equality under the law.

Third of all, this message should be relayed to all parties questioning the motives of Libertatem. If you doubt the legitimacy of this report, first keep in mind that I, Conservative Idealism, am not solely a resident or envoy of Libertatem, but a guardian of peace throughout NationStates' libertarian regions. If you have any questions, telegram me at my main nation; I will be more than happy to accommodate you.

(Goshdarn, I keep forgetting who I am. It's Manager of the State!)

Pevvania wrote:I think I'm going to pardon TTA. This matter is dragging on too long and is causing divisions in the region. We need to put this fiasco behind us.

No >:(

Also, I will not allow him to participate in any raids I plan in the future.

Ankhora wrote:Can I get citizenship here?

Hopefully not.

I have not yet officially pardoned TTA. But I likely will after I consider a few more options with Roads.

Tsardom, for foreign dignitaries gaining citizenship, please refer to the FRAUD Act.

And Neo-Con, I think that's probably for the best.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:

Hopefully not.

What do you mean hopefully not. If he wants to apply let him apply. There's no need for comments like that.

Guys, can we all just chill the f**k out?

Pevvania wrote:Guys, can we all just chill the f**k out?

Seconded.

Pevvania wrote:Guys, can we all just chill the f**k out?

We are chill. Or at least I am. I simply advised him not to say comments like that on the RMB in case of being offensive.

I'm not just referring to you. Everything has been really tense since CB was tagged. We need to put it behind us and be pals once more.

I'll interrupt y'all for another one of my obnoxious questions: does anyone here like the movie Smokey and the Bandit?

He is allowed to apply.

Pevvania wrote:I'm not just referring to you. Everything has been really tense since CB was tagged. We need to put it behind us and be pals once more.

I'll interrupt y'all for another one of my obnoxious questions: does anyone here like the movie Smokey and the Bandit?

Great movie.

Incompetence of the Police FTW

Humpheria wrote:Seconded.

Thirded. Motion passes - we must now chill.

I am in favor of pardoning The Time Alliance, for two reasons:

- He did not attack Libertatem; while a few nations of ours were involved in the raid, it was ultimately not a Libertatem raid and thus absolves him of wrongdoing against the region itself

- He defended Communist Beach for the sake of righteous idealism, and did so as an example that we should not oppress any who cling to the ways of libertarianism

In conclusion, while his attitude was clearly insubordinate and actions were tangled, his intentions were noble and he is worthy of a pardon. But that is merely my opinion.

Ankhora wrote:Can I get citizenship here?

I'm sure our office of Internal Affairs would be pleased to admit you as soon as you meet the criteria. We welcome our allies and recognize their desire to be involved in our affairs.

Pevvania wrote:I'm not just referring to you. Everything has been really tense since CB was tagged. We need to put it behind us and be pals once more.

I'll interrupt y'all for another one of my obnoxious questions: does anyone here like the movie Smokey and the Bandit?

That's a big 10-4 snowman

The Time Alliance wrote:Great movie.

Incompetence of the Police FTW

'Murica.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Thirded. Motion passes - we must now chill.

I am in favor of pardoning The Time Alliance, for two reasons:

- He did not attack Libertatem; while a few nations of ours were involved in the raid, it was ultimately not a Libertatem raid and thus absolves him of wrongdoing against the region itself

- He defended Communist Beach for the sake of righteous idealism, and did so as an example that we should not oppress any who cling to the ways of libertarianism

In conclusion, while his attitude was clearly insubordinate and actions were tangled, his intentions were noble and he is worthy of a pardon. But that is merely my opinion.

I'm sure our office of Internal Affairs would be pleased to admit you as soon as you meet the criteria. We welcome our allies and recognize their desire to be involved in our affairs.

Help me out. Criteria?

Ankhora wrote:Help me out. Criteria?

They can be read here.

Reference the FRAUD Act in the "Laws of Libertatem" you classify as a foreign dignitary.

So wait a month?

Yep. In the meantime, you will have all of the rights of a foreign emissary, and are encouraged to act on behalf of UCR.

And what are those?

Well you're nice...

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Boo.

These comments are unnecessary and shouldn't be made.

The Time Alliance wrote:These comments are unnecessary and shouldn't be made.

I was also thinking the same thing about yours.

I was thinking that about both, but NCS America is much more hostile.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:I was also thinking the same thing about yours.

And what comment would that be?

Manager Neo, please save your hostility for the raids and spare our residents.

I fell a little unwelcome....

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.