Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
Good I'm glad that that was straightened out.
I will be sure to amend the bill to make it clear that they do not have to have a WA nation, if they are a conscientious objector to the WA.
Thank you, Mr. Manager.
No problem. If you don't mind im going to wait for Pev and Lack there of to chime in.
Of course. I was referencing taking over.
You were in the WA - but you resigned to make a political statement. Basically, I'm saying this - if you want to work for me, I need to know you won't attempt to sabotage my establishment. Simple.
Oh! Again, no problem. Don't like to see anyone get stressed out over this kind of thing.
*nods* I did. Didn't I..... I'm not rejoining though as It's very much worthless.
We handled it.
This is unconstitutional.
But Humpheria, any potential saboteur could say "I don't have a WA nation" with us having no way of verifying it.
How so? You've expressed your problems with bills before?
I did not say i was going to make the changes for sure. I want your input along with anyone else who chimes in.
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant to ask if I could alter acts after their passage without the authority of the House.
Sure, I'll go over a few bits.
Haha, guess i should have phrased that better.
FRAUD Act (AMENDED)
Future Regional Activity Unfair Discourse Act
Section I
Purpose of the Act
Subsection I
Clarify specific laws on puppet use
Subsection II
Address voter fraud
Subsection III
Foreign puppets
Subsection IV
Citizenship
Section II
Clarify specific laws on puppet use
Subsection I
Any nation classified as a Citizen is entitled to the use of puppets
Subsection II
Said puppets ARE NOT Citizens, and do not have voting rights nor the right to stand for public office
Section III
Address voter fraud
Subsection I
Any Citizen may have only one vote in any office or legislative election or referendum
Subsection II
Only Citizens of Libertatem may vote in any office or legislative election or referendum
Subsection III
No nation that has resided in Libertatem for less than ten days may be qualified as Citizens
Subsection IV
Any nation convicted of voter fraud will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law by the sitting Attorney-General
Section IV
Foreign dignitaries
Subsection I
Any nation from any ally of Libertatem may send a dignitary puppet
Subsection II
These puppets must be identified as dignitaries to be granted proper rights
Subsection III
It is illegal for a foreign nation to send a puppet disguised as a sovereign nation
Subsection IV
After having membership of more than thirty days, these puppets will classify as Citizens
Section V
Citizenship
Subsection I
Only Citizens may hold office and vote in public elections, they are not required to do either
Subsection II
One must be a resident by at least ten days before being eligible for citizenship
Subsection III
Citizens who wish to stand for public office must identify their World Assembly nation to the President or Manager of Internal Affairs
Subsection IV
Once attaining office, they must inform the President or Manager of Internal Affairs the location of their World Assembly nation whenever relevant
Subsection V
After the residency requirement is met, a nation must notify the Manager of Internal Affairs
Subsection VI
The Manager of Internal Affairs will keep a public list of Citizens, and will manage the status and list of Citizens appropriately
Section VI
Annulment of Citizenship
Subsection I
Every Citizen has the right to renounce their Citizenship
Subsection II
Once renounced, their Citizenship can be restored upon an application to the Manager of Internal Affairs followed by enduring the ten-day waiting period once more
Subsection III
Citizenship of a nation can be revoked by the Manager of Internal Affairs or President, on the grounds of treason or other grievous violation of the law
Added an extra section to address annulment.
Could I get some feedback?
Good.
Well, I would like to run for public office, but I cannot be in the WA because Alchandria and I live in the same home, so we have the ip address and nationstates has bots to prevent people having more than one WA nation that use ip addresses to find these people, and it sees this and think that I am Alchandria's puppet, and won't allow us to be in WA.
If you look on someone's activity, you can see all their region changes.
Aaaah. That makes a lot of sense.
I'll put in an exception that you can find in my factbook.
So if we don't have a WA account we just clarify we don't?
I'll only allow for exceptions in cases like Hallo's. He is in a constrained situation and can provide proof that he lives in the same household as Alchandria. This is a legitimate reason. Objecting to being a member of the WA is not.
thank you, pev.
Post self-deleted by Humpheria.
I like the amended bill.
As expected, Neutricland is unfazed by the REATO condemnation.
Just thought I'd mention that, didn't want to distract from the discussion of the bill or anything.
Speaking of, I like this form of it.
where in your factbook is said exception?
Indeed. For the charges brought against his regime, I have been officially dubbed a retarded idiot.
A REATO condemnation was never meant to intimidate Neutric - how can it? - but to show pur opposition to his tyrannical ambitions and violations of the law. He would have left TFI2G in ruins had Idealism not rescued the region. He clearly cares only about power and completely disregards the consequences of his actions. He's totally ignorant of the time, work and energy put into rebuilding The Federal Islands after he left it to die the first time. He would throw all of that away simply to fulfill his own twisted ambitions for power. And for this he should be deeply ashamed of himself.
I just realised - there doesn't need to be one. In this case, Alchandria is technically your WA nation.
Problem solved.
I tend to ping pong my WA account in between various puppets. So that'll be fun to register every five minutes.
Really loving Neutricland's four puppets in his new region lol. He is just selecting random people and puppets to put in positions of power to make it look like a respectable region. He is delusional.
Nope, just "whenever relevant". Deduce from that what you wish.
And if you don't mind me asking, are you and Hallo brothers?
Yessir.
Twins, to be specific
"Subsection IV
After having membership of more than thirty days, these puppets will classify as Citizens"
30 days is a long time to process, especially for someone who is active enough to have gained a diplomatic position in an alien region. I propose this be shortened to the 10 day period that other nations face when entering the region.
"Subsection III
Citizens who wish to stand for public office must identify their World Assembly nation to the President or Manager of Internal Affairs"
I am against this on the principle that certain nations may not want to be involved in the WA at all (ie TTA) and that this section discriminates against players of that ideology. Personally, I feel the 10 day waiting period is enough to discourage voter fraud. The majority of fraudulent acts i have witnessed on nation states appear to have been last minute puppet inflations and most candidates would have to be on the ball to create friendly puppets more than a week in advance of elections in order to have them inflate the vote.
But they could be on the ball. The WA restriction is just to certify that they have a home nation that is not against us. And what if, what if, what if? What if worms has machine guns, bird's would leave them alone.
He's a freaking joke
I for one am more trusting of the populace than most, i suppose. The amount of fore planning necessary to create the necessary puppet citizens needed to swing an election would be significant even without the WA subsection. I am unwilling to discriminate against a certain brand of ideology in order to feel a bit safer about the legitimacy of regional elections.
Lack, our concerns are very real. We have been infiltrated by socialists before. Few have successfully worked their way up to the higher elements of the regional government, but speaking as someone who has participated in this very practice before in several Communist regions, I can't tell you just how easy it is to do.
So. Freedom to choose isn't a reason? Are you forcing nations to do what they don't want.
I trust the populace.
Oh yes. I came in the region. Haha. Communist nations can move a WA nation here and put a puppet in their old one. Or give their puppet WA.
Well what would REATO even do besides condemn them. I wouldn't care if I was condemned.
Ah how good it is to finally be back and fight those damn fed islands
I mean, we do kind have a garrison in TFI2G just in case anything happens.
Keeping one in line, I would imagine. Helps you know that people really don't like what you're doing and that we're prepared to take action should it come to that.
I know no one remembers me. I was one of the original board members. A fed sly infiltrated into our board and almost forced us into a full out war. He tried persuading me to betray and join the Feds. I was a young country of about 400 mil and greedy for power. I agreed to his terms and pretended to switch sides. All the while keeping Pevania informed. I know that they will always be lurking in the shadows. Remember to be vigilant as I fear they are planning to infiltrate once again
Same.
So we've militarily Occupied them?
I heard the word military.
Yeah.
So what is it that y'all are talking about right now? If I'm not overstepping my bounds perhaps I could get involved.
Your not. This is a transparent government.....
-A Fraud act is being voted on that could hurt or help the region. (More info if needed TG me.)
- Military Occupation by this (Democratic) region on another region.
Time Alliance, calling what we're doing an occupation is both excessively dramatic and objectively wrong. I've done occupations before, I knkww what an occupation is. This is not one. An occupation would be a sharp movement of troops into TFI2G that would promptly endorse one of their own to seize the Delegacy and dictate short-term policy. What we are undertaking is a dispatchment of a reserve garrison to the region to be used in the case of external aggression. And what is this 'use'? Endorsing the elected Delegate to strengthen their position.
So as you can see, this is not an occupation in any way.
Okay. So keeping our military there is not an occupation? I don't know. I'm pretty dang sure that kicking the current leader out then keeping troops there with people we support in power (CI) it's a pretty good description of occupation.
The bill encompasses Fraud in all forms of the word, not just voting fraud. If you don't like, don't vote for it. You've made your point, and now it's time to stop. Just stop. There is defending your belief and there is hating for the sake of hating. You are not shutting up on purpose, and it gets incredibly tiring. We understand that you will oppose everything just to oppose it, we got it the first fifty times. Lack has valid points and actually wants to help. Your incessant whining about everything is getting tedious.
CI was President before Neutricland left. They voted to have us there. "Websters - Military occupation is effective provisional control of a certain power over a territory which is not under the formal sovereignty of that entity, without the volition of the actual sovereign"
Just stop talking for once, please.
Coming from a native of TFI2G ([nation=short]Shallowell[/nation]), it's not an occupation.
We did not overthrow Neutric, he exiled himself with the knowledge that mass popular opposition would inevitably kill his reelection bid. And CI has been President of that region for months.
If it were an occupation we'd be trying to actively steer that region's policy in a particular direction. And while some of us are doing that, we are doing it as private citizens, not an organised military force. Troops have been sent there because a) they support it and b) TFI2G has been a strong ally of ours for a while, and we'll do anything to ensure its security.
I'm the guy who pointed out any dang idiot can still get in by way of as I said.
" A communist nation can walk in with its main nation and keep it's puppet in it's region or Give it's puppet WA and send it here. "
Currently WA is only a short term solution. We need REAL laws. Amount of time to be in region. Activity. Major background checks.
So shut your mouth and listen to reason.
As for that other region. Sorry. I didn't know.
Okay.
Okay.
Shut up.
Guys, guys, please... We're all friends here. I'm going to bed now, so I'll further discuss FRAUD and other matters tomorrow.
He has the most valid statement here. If the actual regional citizens desire the extra people whats the issue? But i digress, can we focus on the bill at hand until its finished? If the authors are unwilling to reconcile i recognize that and leave it to the electorate to decide trusting in their judgment. Can we get a vote tally up and running?
TTA , Quit acting like a child.
Humpheria, Quit feeding TTA things to act like a child over. (No offense.)
TTA, remember that you plan on running for president. I wouldn't say telling the Chairman of the board to shut up is the greatest idea.
He's the one. I bring up important points. He ignores them and says I'm not suggesting anything.
Tell Humpheria everything you want to see in his proposal right now; and then apologize.
If anyone's the child it's the guy ignoring points. When I'm wrong and I know I am and proof is provided I accept I'm wrong. I don't ignore points that go against what I said.
Apologize for what? Pointing things out then him saying I'm doing jack-sh*t?
None taken.
All I want is for this region to have one day. ONE! In which we can get things done with everyone trying to work together to better the region. That is why we're here! To better Libertatem. Why can't we all just get together and be productive. Rather than a few making colossal efforts and others just sitting back and condescendingly finding ways to destroy for no reason. Be critical, it betters progress. But when you are critical try. to. make. it. work. Now, by this I mean we have to compromise. Saying "something won't work, take it out" isn't being productive. We all have to give a little. I am guilty of this to. I admit it. But we should try to find a way to make it work. And stop whining about it because we all don't get exactly what we want. Again, guilty. We are spending more time on a simple piece of legislation, than any other in my entire residence. It's time to put on our big boy pants and getting this done. For Libertatem.
He has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't like a subsection of a section of a 6 section piece of legislation. He doesn't need to apologize, he hasn't done anything wrong. We just disagree.
We are working together, Humpheria. When it comes to we as individuals, remember that steel sharpens steel, and that legislation challenged is legislation improved. We must remember that freedom is not free, but must be fought for every day. So we will continue fighting, and while this may pit us against each other in debate, it only serves to bring us closer together in the long run.
EXACTLY! That is exactly what I'm saying. We should debate legislation, work together. Not just criticize without base, or giving any solid concessions and alternatives. This legislation has gone past the point of debate, now we're just paddling around like children, all of us involved. Only Lack has mentioned a vote, and no one is willing to compromise. This sir, is no longer a debate. In the last few hours, we've been getting better, but I'd like to just get this legislation to vote.
Look the things good; but I see too many ways for people to get around the WA thing.
Okay, but will you vote against it because of that one detail?
BTDubs, this is what I was talking about thank you.
Well. It revolves mostly around citizenship and office by WA membership which if easily by- passed doesn't work.
Thus negating the bill's true affect.
That is only a part of the bill. The bill encompasses much more than he WA clause, which simply states that in order to hold high office (influence our laws and the running of our region) in our region, they must disclose their WA nation in order to prove that they are who they say they are. Why is this so wrong? If you disapprove of the WA, then what do you propose as a viable alternative?
Currently WA is only a short term solution. We need REAL laws. Amount of time to be in region. Activity. Major background checks.
Perhaps long time until one can run
and shorter time till they can vote.
I'm not against the WA thing. It just has a lot of flaws.
Anyone can simply sit in a region long enough to gain trust enough to ascend through the ranks if some other barrier is not put in place.
With needing to disclose the name of the WA nation, it forces said person to actually do more than merely sit here a while until they become able to run for office.
Plus, if one seeks the Presidency, then you must be in the WA anyways.
So, there's that.
Well, a case could be argued that any citizen could run in an election. Meaning that we already have a time-limit. But, perhaps that could work. But, what flaws do you mean. I've only heard the anti-WA point. However, that is a good idea.
Point. But we mean all positions. Not just presidency.
1. Puppet WA. Real nation in original region WA puppet in this region.
2. WA nation. Puppet left at home whilst real WA nation comes here.
3. Fact that there are plenty of anti and/or Non -WA in the region (Our government)
4. Bad affects the WA has on some nations.
They just have to say who their WA is, they don't have to be WA.
I mean is this law even worth it? It's impossible to know if somebody is a puppet. As mentioned by some of you guys earlier, somebody could just create a country and just pretend to be somebody else and let it sit. It's 100% impossible to know unless we all disclosed personal information and took lie detector tests IRL in front of each other. There is only so much we can do and I'm not sure anything is going to work. We will just have to excursive trust and only assume the best. Let's be real here.
None of that could matter.
In fact, some of us, the people who we can only assume are the real deal myself included, could just be puppets sent to watch over Libertatem from elsewhere. How could we possibly know? We can't. For all we know, Pevvania is the Black Riders Commander's secondary account. Or Humpheria is just a side account to president of some other region. And maybe I'm Neutricland?
How would anybody know? It's all highly unlikely of course, but still there is never anyway to know for sure, so I think we should just set up a week waiting period for nations to vote and hope they are legit. There isn't much else we can do.
Damn, I've been found out!
And the point is?
But how could you know? There other country might be so far out of touch with this region that it isn't even going to matter if they subject their country in this region to the WA rule. They might have multiple emails also, so th eWA rule really doesn't even matter.
Their*
My grammar nooooooooooooooo
Why shouldn't we hold those who want to control the region to some proof of validity? And what do you mean the eWA doesn't even matter?
Post self-deleted by Humpheria.
And we would never be able to pin their other country down unless they are retarded and drop huge bombs suggesting who they really are. Besides, like we would even find the other region and be able to randomly pick their former WA country, and also, it could jet be a coincidence and we just convicted somebody with evidence that turns out is just a coincidence. HOW CAN YOU KNOW?
Damn the internet.
Teehee
Meant to say WA if that wasn't clear.
Also, if you can convert your country to WA to achieve legitimacy in the region, again, you could still be a puppet. It's pointless and it doesn't really matter.
Wat? All they have to do is make their WA puppet public. That doesn't even make sense. I genuinely don't understand what you were trying to say.
No, they don't have to be WA. They have to tell the public who their WA is.
Post self-deleted by Republic Of Minerva.
Ok I'm confused now. This is what happens when I don't check the RMB for a while, I must be severely misinformed about the current situation.
Diverting attention away from a legislative debate is not constructive, no matter how much we want it to be. We need to sort out the kinks in this proposed law, and immigration is a sensitive issue.
They could still lie, just as a foreign envoy could lie about being new or a puppet could lie about being sovereign. We need a smarter approach to solve the same objective. The question is, but what?
Really? All I was hearing was a bunch of fighting going on, although perhaps its just me. Carry on then.
Hoo boy have I got alot of catching up to do.. can't a guy go ice fishing without his regional government blowing up? Haha.
The nation that is running for office doesn't have to be WA. They need only tell the public who their WA puppet is to prove they aren't spies. A person can only have one WA, so it'd be hard to cheat.
Were can I look to get more info on what y'all are debating?
In Libertatem? Never.
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.