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Region: Libertatem

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Skaveria wrote:It's natural for a group of people, banded together in a nation, to be suspicious of late-comers. Race isn't a part of it, and honestly, making race a part of it is usually a leftist argument against borders, not a Libertarian one. I'd make the same line of argumentation if the problem was illegal Canadians, it's not indicative of racism.

Except that race is literally a part of today's arguments. Sure, it doesn't have to be, but there are a very big number of people who are just using exactly what you said as a cover for racism.

Jadentopian Order wrote:Except that race is literally a part of today's arguments. Sure, it doesn't have to be, but there are a very big number of people who are just using exactly what you said as a cover for racism.

Then point them out and treat them as individual racists, don't make a line of argumentation a racist one just because some disingenuous people hop on it because it happens to serve their interests. It's like the bake the cake argument. I think that it's anti-freedom to be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding if you don't want to, a homophobe may agree, but for the wrong reason, INTENT MATTERS.

Skaveria wrote:It's natural for a group of people, banded together in a nation, to be suspicious of late-comers. Race isn't a part of it, and honestly, making race a part of it is usually a leftist argument against borders, not a Libertarian one. I'd make the same line of argumentation if the problem was illegal Canadians, it's not indicative of racism.

Late-comers? Is it even possible to be late coming to a country? Furthermore, who is the group of people? America is not defined by a group of people like the "French" or the "British," as we do not use race or ethnicity (a social construct) to determine our nation-hood. Race, inevitably, becomes apart of the question though, as humans naturally like to substitute more difficult questions like "how many immigrants should we let in" or "how should we ensure they are welcomed into our society" with "do I like the sound of these people"? As I noted previously, borders have outlived their usefulness and instead have become cultural/symbolic boundaries of "Us" and "the Other" or "Americans" and "Mexicans." The harms of borders are unmistakable through the violent imprisonment of immigrants and deportation back to their unstable country. I say this because you have never defined sovereignty, so I will do so for you - necropolitics or the state having the right to kill, both directly and indirectly. The very existence of the police affirm this and so does the death penalty, but so do borders. An example of brutality against undocumented immigrants is the story of Anastacio Hernandez Rojas who was severely beaten by TWENTY border patrol agents! In some cases, deportation can quite literally translate to a death sentence, as deportees in Mexico are presumed to have money then robbed and killed like the story of Juan Carlos Coronilla-Guerrero. There are many more instances of the state having the ability to choose who lives and dies, so is that the expression of sovereignty you're advocating for? Libertarians and myself would argue that the expansion and reinforcement of borders EXPANDS state power, as proved through their right to kill.

P.S. Race has everything to do with the border argument such as the resurgence of white nationalism and the myth of "cultural Marxism."

Skaveria wrote:INTENT MATTERS.

Intent doesn't matter when the end is objectively wrong.

Miencraft

Venomringo wrote:Intent doesn't matter when the end is objectively wrong.

Well that's where we're just gonna have to disagree, I don't think border enforcement is objectively evil, I think using pro-border arguments to promote a racist agenda is evil, but that doesn't make the argument evil in and of itself. This all really comes down to a simple question: Does a nation have the right to control who enters it? My answer is yes, borders and territory recognition are one of the trademarks of being a nation at all.

And cultural Marxism is very much a real thing, colleges are soaked in Marxism these days and are only good for indoctrination into the Democratic party.

Skaveria wrote:Does a nation have the right to control who enters it? My answer is yes, borders and territory recognition are one of the trademarks of being a nation at all.

Who? No, they shouldn't. A nation shouldn't reject certain people from their country on the basis of who they are. So called "territory recognition" promotes the violence and separation I was describing in the last post, so, maybe, based on your principles, we shouldn't be a nation at all. Our nation, in my opinion, was founded upon the principles of liberty and equality, not upon the securitization of some abritrary territorial lines marked by the luck of geography.

Skaveria wrote:And cultural Marxism is very much a real thing, colleges are soaked in Marxism these days and are only good for indoctrination into the Democratic party.

Uh, are we thinking of the same cultural Marxism? I'm talking about the Cultural Marxism that Infowars propagates such as the "white genocide" and other hilariously stupid conspiracy theories.

Venomringo wrote:Who? No, they shouldn't. A nation shouldn't reject certain people from their country on the basis of who they are. So called "territory recognition" promotes the violence and separation I was describing in the last post, so, maybe, based on your principles, we shouldn't be a nation at all. Our nation, in my opinion, was founded upon the principles of liberty and equality, not upon the securitization of some abritrary territorial lines marked by the luck of geography.

Uh, are we thinking of the same cultural Marxism? I'm talking about the Cultural Marxism that Infowars propagates such as the "white genocide" and other hilariously stupid conspiracy theories.

Look, as I mentioned earlier in this conversation, I don't think it should be particularly hard to immigrate to the United States, but this call for the removal of the borders themselves is number one, radically unrealistic, and two, unessisary, nations have borders, as I've repeated, literally every nation, and also, that begs the question, even if it was realistic and nessisary to remove our borders, what makes you think other nations will follow suit? Where does that leave us if we're the only country on earth with completely open borders? If we allow unrestricted access how will we keep track of citizens, and then taxes? Armies, cops, and courts cost money, the states requires a means to generate revenue, if we don't have a reliable way to collect taxes, the only other way the state could fund itself is by nationalizing businesses for exports, and I'd rather not be 100% reliant on other countries for money to fund our domestic policies.

And as for cultural Marxism, the term is broader than just the Alex Jones conspiracies and white nationalism. You're a Libertarian, you should be an enemy of Marxism, just because you happen to share the opinion on Marxism with Nazis doesn't mean you have to abandon the opinion. This is the reason Conservatives and Libertarians haven't had a backbone for twenty years, we're so irrationally afraid of being called a racist Nazi that we're forced to capitulate to radical leftist who openly associate with Communist militants like Antifa and brainwash college students into hating capitalism, America, and more broadly, western thought in general, the ONLY reason race gets dragged into the conversation when someone appeals to western values is because, just by happenstance, the west is pretty darn white.

Skaveria wrote:National borders are a part of it as well. Walls around city-states been around for thousands of years. If a nation cannot regulate the people who come into it, it isn't a nation, because there may come a time when restricting immigration has national security concerns rather than just arbitrary demographic control.

National security concerns such as? Generally, I believe dealing with national security concerns with the military. People moving places is not a "national security concern" any more than the Trump tariffs are. It's BS.

Sometimes, when it's a slow news day and I'm desperate to find some news, I, in my desperation, visit Breitbart. Always regret it. Pure crap.

Rateria, Jadentopian Order

The New United States wrote:Sometimes, when it's a slow news day and I'm desperate to find some news, I, in my desperation, visit Breitbart. Always regret it. Pure crap.

I’ve never visited that place. How bad is it?

The New United States

Rateria wrote:I’ve never visited that place. How bad is it?

Bad:

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/06/shock-wages-and-jobs-soar-at-american-businesses-hit-by-metals-tariffs/

It's a lot of click-bait and circle-jerking about Trump. That's coming from someone that's mostly pleased with the Trump presidency.

Rateria, Jadentopian Order

>ban the arts as an academic field

>quality of weather skyrockets as a direct result

Today has been a good day.

Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria

Open borders in 2018 is a horrible idea. First of all, in the minarchist state, and in any state, border enforcement is a basic and essential function next to operation of the courts, police and military. So even in libertarian theory, which I largely subscribe to, border enforcement is a legitimate function of the government.

I favored open borders a couple of years ago too. But it's an incredibly naive position when all you have to do is open your eyes and see what is going on when you leave the door open to groups of people diametrically opposed to American and western values. I lived in Europe and experienced this first hand. Islamic migrants are destroying cities that have stood proud for thousands of years. Many of these people don't care for private property, religious liberty, civil liberties and so forth. Similarly, it seems like many self-proclaimed libertarians insist on mindlessly importing people that often vote Democrat and hope it all works out in the end. Remember Reagan's 1986 amnesty: 3 million new American citizens that largely voted to grow government.

I detest identity politics and sweeping assumptions about other groups of people, but there is a reason why the left is fighting so hard for the sanctuary state, opposes voter ID laws, supports abolishing ICE and so forth. They want more votes!

In a truly free market, unrestricted flow of labor would be fantastic. But we are constrained by our political system and the democratic principles that have taken shape in America over the past hundred years. Immigration is great and benefits our nation tremendously. Ideally we'd have a fair and simple legal immigration regime that let's the best and brightest from all stripes to enter the country. But with the welfare state, the Democratic Party machine and the ever-present allure of socialism beckoning our youth, any libertarians that believe 'open borders' would benefit the country are hopelessly deluded. As Milton Friedman said, "You cannot have open borders with a welfare state." We need people that will assimilate rather than people that will assist the end the American republic.

Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Skaveria, San Carlos Islands

Republic Of Minerva wrote:National security concerns such as? Generally, I believe dealing with national security concerns with the military. People moving places is not a "national security concern" any more than the Trump tariffs are. It's BS.

Great idea, let's allow even more terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers into our country and give them all work visas. I'm sure the free market will save them, just like it did in Europe!

Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Skaveria

The States Of Balloon wrote:>ban the arts as an academic field

>quality of weather skyrockets as a direct result

Today has been a good day.

#NSlogic

The New United States wrote:Bad:

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/06/shock-wages-and-jobs-soar-at-american-businesses-hit-by-metals-tariffs/

It's a lot of click-bait and circle-jerking about Trump. That's coming from someone that's mostly pleased with the Trump presidency.

You were right. The comments are full of those people who would seriously call Trump their God-Emperor.

Cultural marxism is the viewing of the world as, instead of a battle between the classes as plain ol' marxism thinks, a battle between cultural groups vying for power. It's a real philosophy as it under girds a lot of the thought behind intersectionality. The Frankfurt school is a real thing. I'm not sure how you can say it is a myth Venom.

Pevvania, Narland

Rateria wrote:#NSlogic

The reason my weather was so bad is because philosophy students were blocking out the sun with their giant brains.

Miencraft, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Great idea, let's allow even more terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers into our country and give them all work visas. I'm sure the free market will save them, just like it did in Europe!

Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

According to CATO, "Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year."

If you want to stop drug smugglers, legalize and regulate drugs. The reason Mexico is so dangerous is due to these black market drug smugglers. Legalizing even just marijuana would absolutely crush them. This would be much more efficient than any border regulation.

Venomringo, Jadentopian Order

Pev is the leader of the Know-Nothings, here to safeguard the US against the Romanist conspiracy to subvert traditional Anglo-Protestant values

Miencraft, Venomringo

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

According to CATO, "Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year."

If you want to stop drug smugglers, legalize and regulate drugs. The reason Mexico is so dangerous is due to these black market drug smugglers. Legalizing even just marijuana would absolutely crush them. This would be much more efficient than any border regulation.

Marijuana is legal and regulated in California, and the black market us still booming. thats because of how much it's regulated; but that's beside the point...

Without borders we don't have a country. Without borders; A.) We're flooded with illegals, who threaten our democracy, vote Democrat, thus attacking freedom and liberty by electing a goverment that isn't accountable to it's citizens and tears apart the constitution in the name of "Progressivism" and we become the next Venezuela or; B.) The government collapses (and realistically) Russia or China takes over, and we all know their record on liberty and human rights.

The radical half of Libertarianism doesn't realize borders are a sacrifice you make to protect the shread of freedom and liberty we have, at least in today's world.

edit: sorry for any bad grammer/spelling, i'm at work rn trying to quickly type stuff up on my phone.

Pevvania

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

According to CATO, "Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year."

"...committed by a foreigner..." that's not so much what I'm worried about, I'm not worried about some immigrant couple who moved to America for freedom, so the man could open a business and the wife didn't have to wear a hijab. I'm more worried about their kids of whom America is all they've ever known, who get BRAINWASHED by college and the progressive media into hating America. The return to traditional Islam by muslim youth is alarming to say the least. They've never known the oppression of living under an Islamo-fascist regime. There are pictures of Muslim feminists in the 70s ripping off their headscarves to protest. These days their children are saying headscarves are a sign of feminism and Islam is the most progressive religion. As it currently stands we're doing everything we can to radicalize our Muslim population, until we can stop that, I'd rather not have a very large Muslim population.

As for the drugs, we do need to legalize all drugs, that would massively cut into the cartels profits, but that's not happening soon either, I'd rather not have cartel style killings north of the border.

Pevvania

San Carlos Islands wrote:Marijuana is legal and regulated in California, and the black market us still booming. thats because of how much it's regulated; but that's beside the point...

Without borders we don't have a country. Without borders; A.) We're flooded with illegals, who threaten our democracy, vote Democrat, thus attacking freedom and liberty by electing a goverment that isn't accountable to it's citizens and tears apart the constitution in the name of "Progressivism" and we become the next Venezuela

1. You can't have illegals if there's no immigration laws.

2. You act like people acting on their own will and electing someone that promises benefits to themselves is unnatural behavior. Didn't millions just elect a president that promised them the same things?

Skaveria wrote:I'm more worried about their kids of whom America is all they've ever known, who get BRAINWASHED by college and the progressive media into hating America.

You mean like the strawman millenial that the conservative media feeds you? I know plenty of college-aged progressives and liberals who, yeah, hate Trump, but none of them literally hate America. You can dislike your government and still love your country, as many do. Of course there are retards like the people you see on tumblr, but that is literally just a vocal minority in the same way that not all Trump supporters are the alt-right douchebags that have been extremely vocal the past few years.

Jadentopian Order

It doesn't seem like a strawman to me though, I'd see your point if I wasn't seeing Tumblr-esque behavior in real life. I'm in college now, I've taken three political science classes and met literally ONE Libertarian and ONE conservative besides myself, all the others are either communists or socialists. meanwhile we have a Maoist group on campus. I think you seriously underestimate how much of that stuff on college campuses is real.

Pevvania

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

What about closing the borders so that there aren't as many workers flowing in who will work for less than minimum wage and the workers who are here could possibly get some bargaining power and perhaps ask for higher wages?

Pevvania wrote:Open borders in 2018 is a horrible idea. First of all, in the minarchist state, and in any state, border enforcement is a basic and essential function next to operation of the courts, police and military. So even in libertarian theory, which I largely subscribe to, border enforcement is a legitimate function of the government.

Ok, however, border enforcement is different from border harassment and abuse. When border enforcement fails should we really persecute families beyond that and cause targeting as seen with the unfair abuses against numerous 'illegal immigrants' such as

Juan Carlos Coronilla-Guerrero and Anastacio Hernandez Rojas?

Pevvania wrote:I favored open borders a couple of years ago too. But it's an incredibly naive position when all you have to do is open your eyes and see what is going on when you leave the door open to groups of people diametrically opposed to American and western values. I lived in Europe and experienced this first hand. Islamic migrants are destroying cities that have stood proud for thousands of years. Many of these people don't care for private property, religious liberty, civil liberties and so forth. Similarly, it seems like many self-proclaimed libertarians insist on mindlessly importing people that often vote Democrat and hope it all works out in the end. Remember Reagan's 1986 amnesty: 3 million new American citizens that largely voted to grow government.

This "cultural invasion" is just demographic change. If you didn't want people of another color in your country, then maybe you shouldn't

have destroyed their countries through colonization and imperialism! Divide and conquer is all swell until you become the cause for their immigration! What even are western values? The isms I aforementioned or some superficial group of ideas meant to justify racism like the pseudoscience of Social Darwinism? Oh, and not to mention, London has been multicultural for more than fifty years and Sharia Law has not been implemented! The London you see in television is different from the one in reality.

Pevvania wrote:I detest identity politics and sweeping assumptions about other groups of people, but there is a reason why the left is fighting so hard for the sanctuary state, opposes voter ID laws, supports abolishing ICE and so forth. They want more votes!

Identity politics, or Hegelian Politics, arise when groups of similiar people are found vulnerable by similar conflicts, so, naturally, they find community in that. Hegelian politics are misunderstood by the Right in that they believe it's about taking advantage of those groups rather it's about achieving justice and equality, whichever comes first. An example of this includes Black Lives Matter and they're pursuit of ending institutional racism and inequality as seen through employment discrimination and police brutality. Another example is the concept of "illegal immigration" and brutality that ICE and other agents government violence use against them.

Pevvania wrote:In a truly free market, unrestricted flow of labor would be fantastic. But we are constrained by our political system and the democratic principles that have taken shape in America over the past hundred years. Immigration is great and benefits our nation tremendously. Ideally we'd have a fair and simple legal immigration regime that let's the best and brightest from all stripes to enter the country. But with the welfare state, the Democratic Party machine and the ever-present allure of socialism beckoning our youth, any libertarians that believe 'open borders' would benefit the country are hopelessly deluded. As Milton Friedman said, "You cannot have open borders with a welfare state." We need people that will assimilate rather than people that will assist the end the American republic.

Eh, "unrestricted flow of labor" in a "free market" is really just the unrestricted flow of rented slavery. Wage-labour is a disgusting system that devalues the individual just to achieve a profit that goes to investing in more wage slavery. One of the most fundamental differences between the Left and the Right is a community bounded together by vulnerability versus a community bounded together by strength, respectively. The "best and the brightest" is just a euphemism for "strength" and that can refer to a wide variety of things such as physical strength/abilities/characteristics, intellectual ability, skin color, etc, so shaping a country on this idea just leads to exclusion, persecution, and sometimes genocide as seen with Nazi Germany (Aryans/Jews), Cambodia (Labourers/Glasses), and Chile (Right-Wing/Communists), whereas, a community of vulnerability aims to include as much people's conflicts as possible in order to fix them such as healthcare, taxation, physical violence, etc...Additionally, another problem with this idea of strength is that it's defined by the government and us liberty lovers certainly do not like that! So, in other words, this is a conflict between "meritocracy" vs. equality. Now, this hyperbole is insidious in that a welfare state is not going to end the American Republic (I mean I wouldn't mind that lol, but it's not going to happen in the real world)! Let's defund the military instead!

Pevvania wrote:Great idea, let's allow even more terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers into our country and give them all work visas. I'm sure the free market will save them, just like it did in Europe!

G E N E R A L I Z A T I O N S D O N O T R E P L A C E A N A R G U M E N T O R S T A T I S T I C S. I'm just going to quote Minerva because I'd just say the same thing.

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

According to CATO, "Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year."

If you want to stop drug smugglers, legalize and regulate drugs. The reason Mexico is so dangerous is due to these black market drug smugglers. Legalizing even just marijuana would absolutely crush them. This would be much more efficient than any border regulation.

San Carlos Islands wrote:Marijuana is legal and regulated in California, and the black market us still booming. thats because of how much it's regulated; but that's beside the point...

Without borders we don't have a country. Without borders; A.) We're flooded with illegals, who threaten our democracy, vote Democrat, thus attacking freedom and liberty by electing a goverment that isn't accountable to it's citizens and tears apart the constitution in the name of "Progressivism" and we become the next Venezuela or; B.) The government collapses (and realistically) Russia or China takes over, and we all know their record on liberty and human rights.

The radical half of Libertarianism doesn't realize borders are a sacrifice you make to protect the shread of freedom and liberty we have, at least in today's world.

WHAT THE @$£#?? You say illegals like it's an insult, which is the exact kind of abuse that I'm talking about! It's pretty easy to tear families apart and ruin people's lives when you don't call them people. Your "options" are the textbook of the black and white fallacy. Stop trying to justify the existence of borders with "ideas" we need to protect like "national sovereignty." Oh yes let's protect the state's "right" to kill.

This immigration debate boils down to whether or not you like the "sound of these (any race) people," which can evidently be seen with:

Pevvania wrote:Islamic migrants are destroying cities that have stood proud for thousands of years. Many of these people don't care for private property, religious liberty, civil liberties and so forth.

Pevvania wrote:Great idea, let's allow even more terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers into our country and give them all work visas. I'm sure the free market will save them, just like it did in Europe!

Skaveria wrote:I'd rather not have a very large Muslim population.

All of your arguments boil down to "minorities are great, BUT [insert unsupported claim x, y, and z]. I do not believe you are racist people, but your arguments racism cloaked in pseduo-fact and false alarms. There is no culture war. Why is it such a concern that disadvantaged people in impoverished countries want to live in the best country in the world?

Venomringo wrote:This "cultural invasion" is just demographic change. If you didn't want people of another color in your country, then maybe you shouldn't

have destroyed their countries through colonization and imperialism!

Not gonna touch on anything else but...

What?

The hell are you on about?

I'm not sure if you've noticed but the colonial era has been over for more than three centuries. You wanna talk about statistics, maybe don't pull this sins-of-the-father crap that you know full well is nonsense.

Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Closing the borders because "terrorists, convicts and drug smugglers" is the policy not rooted in reality. When you take a look at the percentages, you get the greater picture.

According to CATO, "Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year."

If you want to stop drug smugglers, legalize and regulate drugs. The reason Mexico is so dangerous is due to these black market drug smugglers. Legalizing even just marijuana would absolutely crush them. This would be much more efficient than any border regulation.

I never once suggested closing the borders - nice straw man - I simply stated that national security absolutely IS a reason to reasonably control migration. The travel ban, for example, was implemented based on a list of high risk countries whose people cannot be adequately vetted drafted by the Obama administration. The MAVNI program, which I would love to join if possible, was suspended by the Obama administration because of NATIONAL SECURITY concerns. What planet are you living on if you don't think we should vet people coming into the country? Like, oh I don't know, the New York terrorist last year that was "accidentally" given citizenship? Or the leader of the Women's March that was a convicted Palestinian terrorist and illegal immigrant? I know you like to play the center, Minerva, but if you don't believe in reasonable vetting of immigrants then I invite you to remove the front door of your house and welcome all passerbys who would like to come in and see how you like it.

Yes yes, you know I support ending the Drug War and cooperating with Latin American countries to fix these problems. But we also need to end MS-13's reign of violence and get rid of people who clearly should not be here.

The New United States, Rateria

Miencraft wrote:Not gonna touch on anything else but...

What?

The hell are you on about?

I'm not sure if you've noticed but the colonial era has been over for more than three centuries. You wanna talk about statistics, maybe don't pull this sins-of-the-father crap that you know full well is nonsense.

Have you ever heard of neocolonialism? The effects of colonization and imperialism did not just disappear after decolonization! I'm not sure if you noticed the conflicts between the Hindus and Muslims in India (India/Pakistan now), Israel and Palestine, the Syrian Civil, and the rest of the conflicts about territory in the Middle East like the Kurds! Not to mention the destabilization of countries like Uganda, as nearly 10 years after Britain giving them independence, Idi Amin, a dictator, rose to power and killed over 100,000 people which naturally encouraged mass emigration coupled with the forced exile of Ugandan Asians! It is pretty well documented and it would be common knowledge if you payed attention in history!(http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/suffolk/article_2.shtml and http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_2522000/2522627.stm)

These problems (border conflict because of arbitrarily drawn lines, economic underdevelopment because of the exploration of Africa, and lack of political stability) are completely sins of the father!

https://www.globalpolicy.org/social-and-economic-policy/poverty-and-development/poverty-and-development-in-africa.html

Here's more evidence! https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S1062798700000417

http://ieg-ego.eu/en/threads/europe-on-the-road/economic-migration/pieter-c-emmer-leo-lucassen-migration-from-the-colonies-to-western-europe-since-1800

https://cla.umn.edu/ihrc/news-events/other/muslim-migration-europe

(I'm on mobile so I'm sorry I can't write an essay for you.)

Venomringo wrote:These problems (border conflict because of arbitrarily drawn lines, economic underdevelopment because of the exploration of Africa, and lack of political stability) are completely sins of the father!

Well, then, guess it's a good thing that I'm not responsible for the sins of my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfathers, huh?

As for the demographic change, economic needs for more workers are drawing migrants into Europe.

https://fee.org/articles/the-german-economic-miracle-depended-on-immigrants/

https://blogs.imf.org/2016/10/24/migrants-bring-economic-benefits-for-advanced-economies/

The New United States wrote:Well, then, guess it's a good thing that I'm not responsible for the sins of my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfathers, huh?

What? I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about England and the nations responsible for colonization and imperialism.

Venomringo wrote:What? I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about England and the nations responsible for colonization and imperialism.

The point is, you can't lay the blame of generations long dead on modern peoples and expect them to make reparations of some kind for what they never even did.

Miencraft, Rateria

The New United States wrote:The point is, you can't lay the blame of generations long dead on modern peoples and expect them to make reparations of some kind for what they never even did.

But I can blame the government of the responsible country and demand for them to make reparations to people who they displaced.

Venomringo wrote:But I can blame the government of the responsible country and demand for them to make reparations to people who they displaced.

HA

Jadentopian Order wrote:You mean like the strawman millenial that the conservative media feeds you? I know plenty of college-aged progressives and liberals who, yeah, hate Trump, but none of them literally hate America. You can dislike your government and still love your country, as many do. Of course there are retards like the people you see on tumblr, but that is literally just a vocal minority in the same way that not all Trump supporters are the alt-right douchebags that have been extremely vocal the past few years.

You haven't been to college and don't experience them on a day to day basis. God I wish it were a straw man. But according to PEW, 64% of Millenials support socialism, and only 27% of liberals are "extremely proud" to be Americans (and there's significant crossover between the two groups). Of all my liberal friends, only one of them would say they love America and consider it the greatest country in the world. On 4th of July my Instagram and Snapchat were bombarded by Americans that hate America and commenting on the "troubling political climate". I can send you screenshots if you don't believe me. As bad as it is and as much as I wish it weren't true - and I really wish it weren't true - a lot of Millenial liberals do hate America. I have dozens more examples. But it's not a myth or a straw man, sadly.

Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria

Venomringo wrote:But I can blame the government of the responsible country and demand for them to make reparations to people who they displaced.

Under what circumstances should one nation be justified in demanding reparations from another?

Rateria

Pevvania wrote:You haven't been to college and don't experience them on a day to day basis. God I wish it were a straw man.

I can attest to this. In my days at college, I've met plenty of America-hating leftists.

Pevvania, Rateria

The New United States wrote:Under what circumstances should one nation be justified in demanding reparations from another?

Upon the circumstances of the country being stolen and exploited politically, socially, and economically.

The New United States wrote:I can attest to this. In my days at college, I've met plenty of America-hating leftists.

No matter your political positon, one should always love your country. Criticism and hate are very different

At the very least, hope for the best and seek improvement. You can be progressive, and not an SJW, but a patriot

Rateria

Venomringo wrote:Ok, however, border enforcement is different from border harassment and abuse. When border enforcement fails should we really persecute families beyond that and cause targeting as seen with the unfair abuses against numerous 'illegal immigrants' such as

Juan Carlos Coronilla-Guerrero and Anastacio Hernandez Rojas?

Harassment and abuse? As an immigrant I must tell you that the law is the law! Yes, the system is dysfunctional, and yes, many come here for a better life. But ICE have every moral, legal and constitutional right to remove people that cross the border illegally.

Venomringo wrote:This "cultural invasion" is just demographic change. If you didn't want people of another color in your country, then maybe you shouldn't

have destroyed their countries through colonization and imperialism! Divide and conquer is all swell until you become the cause for their immigration!

Check the Marxist BS at the door please. I don't give a damn what color of people come into the US. I'd rather have a million Africans that support MAGA and the Constitution come into the US than a thousand European whites that don't. But nice job on throwing out the race-baiting early, because now you've discredited your entire argument.

And that had nothing to do with me or you or anyone currently alive. No person alive today has any responsibility for the actions of their ancestors. If you happen to know an Emmet Brown and have a DeLorean handy then we can talk about the sins of past governments. For now talk about what can actually solve this problem instead of your empty, shawllow virtue signaling.

Oh and also, colonialism is no longer a valid excuse as to why the developing world has so many problems. Yes, it's the root of many issues. But most of these countries have been in control of their own destinies for 60-80 years. Smart countries like South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Mauritious have prospered by adopting good policies, free markets and following the advice of western, libertarian and conservative intellectuals. Most of the rest have failed disastrously on their own accord due to corruption, socialist influence and civil war.

Venomringo wrote:What even are western values?

Oh, I don't know. Justo-Christian values, respect for private property, civil law and court systems, capitalism. You know exactly what I mean, don't be coy.

Venomringo wrote:The isms I aforementioned or some superficial group of ideas meant to justify racism like the pseudoscience of Social Darwinism?

You lecture me about pseudoscience when you've clearly adopted the Marxist credo. Please.

Venomringo wrote:Oh, and not to mention, London has been multicultural for more than fifty years and Sharia Law has not been implemented! The London you see in television is different from the one in reality.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about because you've only lived in America, and I suspect you've never even been to London. I lived close to London for 15 years of my life. The U.K. is capitulating to the Muslim minority by having most meat be Halal-compliant without many people's knowledge (therefore compromising the religious beliefs of Sikhs, Christians me more), Islamic tribunals are pervasive, migrant crimes are pushing up the London violent crime rate past that of New York City, people are silenced publicly for daring to question the cultural changes, Muslim rape gangs are overlooked to avoid the appearance of looking "racist", people are literally being arrested for tweeting "Islamophobic" comments, my friend got a visit from the police for saying he liked Tommy Robinson, Canadians are being deported for exposing the follies of Islam, yada yada yada... Please don't comment on things you know nothing about.

Venomringo wrote:Identity politics, or Hegelian Politics, arise when groups of similiar people are found vulnerable by similar conflicts, so, naturally, they find community in that. Hegelian politics are misunderstood by the Right in that they believe it's about taking advantage of those groups rather it's about achieving justice and equality, whichever comes first. An example of this includes Black Lives Matter and they're pursuit of ending institutional racism and inequality as seen through employment discrimination and police brutality.

BLM does not care for "equality"; they care for advancing the march of socialism in the United States. If you don't believe me, then examine their policy proposals, where they promote ideas such as the minimum wage, which has had a highly adverse affect on the black community. And none of that changes that identity politics is divisive, demeaning and self defeating.

Venomringo wrote:Another example is the concept of "illegal immigration" and brutality that ICE and other agents government violence use against them.

Eh, "unrestricted flow of labor" in a "free market" is really just the unrestricted flow of rented slavery. Wage-labour is a disgusting system that devalues the individual just to achieve a profit that goes to investing in more wage slavery. One of the most fundamental differences between the Left and the Right is a community bounded together by vulnerability versus a community bounded together by strength, respectively. The "best and the brightest" is just a euphemism for "strength" and that can refer to a wide variety of things such as physical strength/abilities/characteristics, intellectual ability, skin color, etc, so shaping a country on this idea just leads to exclusion, persecution, and sometimes genocide as seen with Nazi Germany (Aryans/Jews), Cambodia (Labourers/Glasses), and Chile (Right-Wing/Communists), whereas, a community of vulnerability aims to include as much people's conflicts as possible in order to fix them such as healthcare, taxation, physical violence, etc...Additionally, another problem with this idea of strength is that it's defined by the government and us liberty lovers certainly do not like that! So, in other words, this is a conflict between "meritocracy" vs. equality. Now, this hyperbole is insidious in that a welfare state is not going to end the American Republic (I mean I wouldn't mind that lol, but it's not going to happen in the real world)! Let's defund the military instead!

I... please tell me you're playing Devil's advocate? Obviously all of that is wrong but please don't tell me you're serious?

Venomringo wrote:

You say illegals like it's an insult, which is the exact kind of abuse that I'm talking about! It's pretty easy to tear families apart and ruin people's lives when you don't call them people. Your "options" are the textbook of the black and white fallacy. Stop trying to justify the existence of borders with "ideas" we need to protect like "national sovereignty." Oh yes let's protect the state's "right" to kill.

It's the right to protect the people within the geographic area of a nation-state that's inherent within the concept of a state. End of story.

Venomringo wrote:

This immigration debate boils down to whether or not you like the "sound of these (any race) people," which can evidently be seen with:

All of your arguments boil down to "minorities are great, BUT [insert unsupported claim x, y, and z]. I do not believe you are racist people, but your arguments racism cloaked in pseduo-fact and false alarms. There is no culture war. Why is it such a concern that disadvantaged people in impoverished countries want to live in the best country in the world?

Once again it has nothing to do with race and nothing to do with minorities. I guess 60 million+ Americans are all racist for wanting to protect the country from criminals. Do I really need to counter this asinine point?

Miencraft, Rateria

Hats off to Venom, you totally got me. I went into that reply thinking you were serious, but you trolled me good. No rational person can hold Marxist views. So good job, I fell for it lol.

Miencraft, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:You haven't been to college and don't experience them on a day to day basis. God I wish it were a straw man. But according to PEW, 64% of Millenials support socialism, and only 27% of liberals are "extremely proud" to be Americans (and there's significant crossover between the two groups). Of all my liberal friends, only one of them would say they love America and consider it the greatest country in the world. On 4th of July my Instagram and Snapchat were bombarded by Americans that hate America and commenting on the "troubling political climate". I can send you screenshots if you don't believe me. As bad as it is and as much as I wish it weren't true - and I really wish it weren't true - a lot of Millenial liberals do hate America. I have dozens more examples. But it's not a myth or a straw man, sadly.

Don't feel like arguing any more so I'll just give it to you, but I do have a tiny bit of experience:

I did post a video of some fireworks to my IG last year though with the caption "All communists deserve to die" or something like that and sadly didn't even get any replies :(

Pevvania wrote:Hats off to Venom, you totally got me. I went into that reply thinking you were serious, but you trolled me good. No rational person can hold Marxist views. So good job, I fell for it lol.

Guys the region merge was just a plot to get commie puppets in the region without any suspicion!

Rateria, Venomringo

The States Of Balloon wrote:Guys the region merge was just a plot to get commie puppets in the region without any suspicion!

They’ve infiltrated the region!

*Dives behind a table with an M60 and starts shooting the walls*

Pevvania wrote:Harassment and abuse? As an immigrant I must tell you that the law is the law!

Yeah, ok. Jim Crow was okay because it's the law! The Nuremberg Laws were okay because it's the law! Just because it's the law, doesn't make it moral.

Pevvania wrote:Yes, the system is dysfunctional, and yes, many come here for a better life. But ICE have every moral, legal and constitutional right to remove people that cross the border illegally.

Please explain the moral duty of 20 ICE agents literally beating down Anastacio Hernandez Rojas. This is what these people's civil disobedience is helping to exemplify: the injustices of ICE and police brutality.

Pevvania wrote:Check the Marxist BS at the door please.

Strawman! Instead of dismissing arguments because it's "Marxist," how about you actually refute them? So far, you have only been doing just that - let's hope this changes!

Pevvania wrote:I don't give a damn what color of people come into the US. I'd rather have a million Africans that support MAGA and the Constitution come into the US than a thousand European whites that don't. But nice job on throwing out the race-baiting early, because now you've discredited your entire argument.

What race-baiting? I'm simply acknowledging the cause of immigration to your precious motherland. Instead of complaining about it, how about you acknowledge the events that led up to it?

Pevvania wrote:And that had nothing to do with me or you or anyone currently alive. No person alive today has any responsibility for the actions of their ancestors. If you happen to know an Emmet Brown and have a DeLorean handy then we can talk about the sins of past governments. For now talk about what can actually solve this problem instead of your empty, shawllow virtue signaling.

Again, you're continuing to just dismiss my arguments with shallow talking points - SAD! You know I'm not talking about you and other individual Brits - I'm talking about your government and others that continues to subjugate Africa, economically and politically. An example of this is found in the West African nations of Guinea-Bissau, Senegal, and Mauritania. In these countries, fishing was the most important industry in their economy, but, in 1979, the EU began to take control of these nations' fishing rights and caused them to be reliant on Europe once again, as large-scale unemployment and recession swept the region. Funny enough, the EU broke its own law: the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Seas, which prohibits governments from negotiating with countries where fishing is central to the economy.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/world/africa/14fishing.html

Pevvania wrote: and also, colonialism is no longer a valid excuse as to why the developing world has so many problems.

Oh, excuse me, I didn't know you were the international authority on global issues. For us laymen, can you please explain why it's not?

Pevvania wrote:Yes, it's the root of many issues. But most of these countries have been in control of their own destinies for 60-80 years. Smart countries like South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Mauritious have prospered by adopting good policies, free markets and following the advice of western, libertarian and conservative intellectuals. Most of the rest have failed disastrously on their own accord due to corruption, socialist influence and civil war.

Most Asian countries were bred into democracy and were able to avoid terrorism and divide/conquer politics of their imperial rulers, whereas, African nations were among the first to be subjected to such rule and were released from colonial control with a myriad of problems from exploitation and ethnic conlficts that Asia doesn't have.

Pevvania wrote:Oh, I don't know. Justo-Christian values, respect for private property, civil law and court systems, capitalism. You know exactly what I mean, don't be coy.

Alright, fair enough.

Pevvania wrote:You lecture me about pseudoscience when you've clearly adopted the Marxist credo. Please.

I thought we were past name-calling and dismissing arguments! Oh, and Marxism isn't a science - it's a philosophy.

Pevvania wrote:You don't have a clue what you're talking about because you've only lived in America, and I suspect you've never even been to London. I lived close to London for 15 years of my life. The U.K. is capitulating to the Muslim minority by having most meat be Halal-compliant without many people's knowledge (therefore compromising the religious beliefs of Sikhs, Christians me more), Islamic tribunals are pervasive, migrant crimes are pushing up the London violent crime rate past that of New York City, people are silenced publicly for daring to question the cultural changes, Muslim rape gangs are overlooked to avoid the appearance of looking "racist", people are literally being arrested for tweeting "Islamophobic" comments, my friend got a visit from the police for saying he liked Tommy Robinson, Canadians are being deported for exposing the follies of Islam, yada yada yada... Please don't comment on things you know nothing about.

Personal anecdotes don't replace statistics. Anecdotes can be made up/exaggerated. It's funny how think these laws are wrong, but violently deporting families is all swell! I don't like these instances either, but you can't just pick and choose when the law is absolute and cannot be questioned.

Pevvania wrote:BLM does not care for "equality"; they care for advancing the march of socialism in the United States

>Not equality

>socialism

>pick one

Pevvania wrote:If you don't believe me, then examine their policy proposals, where they promote ideas such as the minimum wage, which has had a highly adverse affect on the black community. And none of that changes that identity politics is divisive, demeaning and self defeating.

The minimum wage does not have adverse affects on anyone, as it is a price floor to keep the price for labor above a value that is too low. The concept of a wage is something that should be replaced for the value of the product, as, in the current system, we are all just slaves to corporations. African-Americans have trouble finding employment because of employer discrimination, not the minimum wage.

https://hbr.org/2017/10/hiring-discrimination-against-black-americans-hasnt-declined-in-25-years

Pevvania wrote:I... please tell me you're playing Devil's advocate? Obviously all of that is wrong but please don't tell me you're serious?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯...How is it wrong? "Best and the brightest" sounds like a community of strength to me and, as for the necropolitics, it's quite legitimate given the examples of the state having the ability to choose who to kill.

Pevvania wrote:It's the right to protect the people within the geographic area of a nation-state that's inherent within the concept of a state. End of story.

What is a nation in the modern context? Being that you're a Brit, it makes tons of sense that a nation to you is made up of similar Anglo-Saxon folk (i.e. England). No wonder you're mad about them damn Muslims!

Pevvania wrote:Once again it has nothing to do with race and nothing to do with minorities. I guess 60 million+ Americans are all racist for wanting to protect the country from criminals. Do I really need to counter this asinine point?

Yes, you do. If it's not about race, then let's talk about the state's "right" to kill that you have been ignoring while the Trump regime applauds murderers (ICE)!

Forgive me if I’m interrupting this debate, but this might have to be updated.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=934269

Around the bottom, it says that VenomRingo is President.

Rateria wrote:Forgive me if I’m interrupting this debate, but this might have to be updated.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=934269

Around the bottom, it says that VenomRingo is President.

I still am! I have not seen much of Aradites lately, unfortunately.

Rateria

Venomringo wrote:seen
are you trying to trololol me sir

Miencraft, Rateria

Venomringo wrote:I still am! I have not seen much of Aradites lately, unfortunately.

He briefly appeared on Discord recently. Inactivity is a problem, but I applaud the people debating right now (including you) for stimulating activity, whether you intended to or not.

Narland

What if someone bought exactly one foot of property along the entire border and didn't allow any entrance? Surely the government has to enforce private property rights? Hell, what if that person also happened to be the president? What if Trump used his own funds to purchase the entire border then conscripted private security to protect it?

Let the libertarian civil war commence!

Skaveria wrote:What if someone bought exactly one foot of property along the entire border and didn't allow any entrance? Surely the government has to enforce private property rights? Hell, what if that person also happened to be the president? What if Trump used his own funds to purchase the entire border then conscripted private security to protect it?

Let the libertarian civil war commence!

privatize border enforcement

The States Of Balloon wrote:privatize border enforcement

Oh, are you an An-Cap?

Skaveria wrote:Oh, are you an An-Cap?

No, but I do agree with a lot of ancap ideology. I consider myself a minarchist.

Skaveria wrote:What if someone bought exactly one foot of property along the entire border and didn't allow any entrance? Surely the government has to enforce private property rights? Hell, what if that person also happened to be the president? What if Trump used his own funds to purchase the entire border then conscripted private security to protect it?

Let the libertarian civil war commence!

ez, the govt just says the land is federal and not for sale

Rateria, Venomringo

Jadentopian Order wrote:ez, the govt just says the land is federal and not for sale

This is worthy of a revolution.

Narland, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:ez, the govt just says the land is federal and not for sale

The gubmint

Rateria

The States Of Balloon wrote:The gubmint

Miencraft wrote:This is worthy of a revolution.

bruh who y'all think owns national parks and shid

http://i.imgur.com/GXalmog.jpg

Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:bruh who y'all think owns national parks and shid

http://i.imgur.com/GXalmog.jpg

Yes, and this is worthy of a revolution.

Skaveria wrote:What if someone bought exactly one foot of property along the entire border and didn't allow any entrance? Surely the government has to enforce private property rights? Hell, what if that person also happened to be the president? What if Trump used his own funds to purchase the entire border then conscripted private security to protect it?

Let the libertarian civil war commence!

Zippity zoppity abolish private property

Saint Zamer

Jadentopian Order wrote:bruh who y'all think owns national parks and shid

http://i.imgur.com/GXalmog.jpg

Take a look at the amount of that land that is even national parks. It's hardly any. Most of it is the BLM

People on the coasts, and really just the east in general, really don't understand how much the BLM controls and can destroy peoples livelihoods. Let alone, why the federal government needs to own so much land in the first place. (it doesn't) Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada barely own any of their state.

Rateria

Wait, what did I miss you guys? I'm not active in regional politics or anything, but why was a communist elected president of Libertatem.

Skaveria wrote:Wait, what did I miss you guys? I'm not active in regional politics or anything, but why was a communist elected president of Libertatem.

lol i was the former President...Aradites is the President

Post self-deleted by Saint Zamer.

I'm new and I just applied for citizenship, could someone send me the rules, please?

Also:

I don't use NS stats.

I'm a constitutional libertarian, but against drug legalization other than marijuana, and against public nudity.

Venomringo wrote:Zippity zoppity abolish private property

Commie!

The New United States, Rateria

Saint Zamer wrote:I'm a constitutional libertarian, but against drug legalization other than marijuana, and against public nudity.

So, you're a conservative who likes weed?

Saint Zamer wrote:I'm a constitutional libertarian, but against drug legalization other than marijuana, and against public nudity.

let me hang my wang

Rateria

Wait what?

Never mind, I'm out of here.

I'm forming my own ideology!

I have my own way of thinking!

Venomringo wrote:So, you're a conservative who likes weed?

Being a slightly less-hardline libertarian doesn't make you a conservative.

Rateria

The New United States wrote:Being a slightly less-hardline libertarian doesn't make you a conservative.

It was a joke

The New United States, Rateria

Saint Zamer wrote:I'm new and I just applied for citizenship, could someone send me the rules, please?

Welcome to Libertatem! Laws are in our 2nd Republic archive nation. If you have any further questions, I’m willing to answer.

https://babylonbee.com/news/report-millennials-more-open-to-socialism-touching-hot-stove-sticking-face-in-sack-full-of-badgers/

Brilliant reporting!

Narland, Rateria

The New United States wrote:https://babylonbee.com/news/report-millennials-more-open-to-socialism-touching-hot-stove-sticking-face-in-sack-full-of-badgers/

Brilliant reporting!

I had to look up The Babylon Bee after reading the article.

The New United States

Been off and on for awhile now... I'm now 10 billion people old... Happy birthday me?

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Wow, I missed some good convo. I hope the activity continues on the Message Board. Happy belated B-day America.

Rateria wrote:I personally prefer Corporatist Anarcho-Communism.
My preference lies with Anti-Corporatist Anarcho-Capitalism but will settle for a duly constituted Objective Realist Contractual Common Weal Minarchy that defends the rights of the natural individual and that individual's person for utmost liberty and equality.

San Carlos Islands wrote:It's not like the past governments have been helping us either, there will be no change in the influx tbh. I hope some of those "socialist" policies keep the trash staying and the upper class fleeing here along with the inevitable brain drain.
I think 100+ years of pick-your-flavor Mexican Socialism and how much post-Kaiserreicht Mercantilism cum Cronyism de las familias one can stand in the witch's brew has already drained much of the brain and brawn to more favorable lands long ago (with the perennial fledgling youth willing finally old enough to emigrate not included excepted).

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Take a look at the amount of that land that is even national parks. It's hardly any. Most of it is the BLM

People on the coasts, and really just the east in general, really don't understand how much the BLM controls and can destroy peoples livelihoods. Let alone, why the federal government needs to own so much land in the first place. (it doesn't) Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada barely own any of their state.

I do not know about other States but in the State of Idaho it is the Bureau of Land Management, not the Bureau of Land Ownership. That said, in Idaho all land not owned by a person is titled and deeded in each County to either that County, the people of said County except for that part of Yellowstone National Park within our bounds and thanks to some dipstick Congressmen back in the 80s) the Craters of the Moon National Monument. All other lands including State Parks and National Forests are leased with the same procedures as the old homesteading laws. I am in favor of the people of each County returning to managing their own lands, and kicking the tin-horned despots back to whatever ill-conceived Statist matriculation chamber they hatched to return their diplomas for real work.

The New United States, Rateria

The New United States wrote:https://babylonbee.com/news/report-millennials-more-open-to-socialism-touching-hot-stove-sticking-face-in-sack-full-of-badgers/

Brilliant reporting!

A worthy successor to the Wittenburg Door Magazine.

The New United States, Rateria

Post self-deleted by The United States Of Patriots.

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/12/chadwick-moore-left-for-dead-in-danville-how-globalism-is-killing-working-class-america/amp/

Very interesting story...

As a group of libertarian leaning folks, what are y'alls thoughts on the idea of 'fair trade before free trade' ?

It really make me challenge my full free trade leanings when I hear the stories of towns like Danville.

The New United States

San Carlos Islands wrote:https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/12/chadwick-moore-left-for-dead-in-danville-how-globalism-is-killing-working-class-america/amp/

Very interesting story...

As a group of libertarian leaning folks, what are y'alls thoughts on the idea of 'fair trade before free trade' ?

It really make me challenge my full free trade leanings when I hear the stories of towns like Danville.

Definitely in favor of free trade. I think it comes down to Hazlitt's central thesis in [I]Economics in One Lesson[/I]. He asserts that, whenever we look at an economic policy, we must take into account 1) its long-term effects, not just the immediate ones, and 2) its impact on the economy in general, and not just on a particular industry or special interest.

Perhaps the industry in that town is gone because of trade, but it's gone because consumers voluntarily chose not to patronize them. Industry exists to cater to the consumer, not the other way around. Besides which, the massive benefits that free-trade renders certainly outweigh any cherry-picked examples like that given by Breitbart.

Miencraft, Republic Of Minerva, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

>looks at list of all regional polls I've voted in

>first one is in Libertatem

>over 4 years ago

>only 4 people left that voted (Miencraft, Minerva, Pev, me)

>everybody else is long dead

Oh, the feels. :'(

Miencraft, Rateria

The New United States wrote:>looks at list of all regional polls I've voted in

>first one is in Libertatem

>over 4 years ago

>only 4 people left that voted (Miencraft, Minerva, Pev, me)

>everybody else is long dead

Oh, the feels. :'(

Hey man, I watched my native region die off and have to maintain it's corpse!

The New United States, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:Hey man, I watched my native region die off and have to maintain it's corpse!

RIP Condy

The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order

Venomringo wrote:RIP Condy

Gone but not forgotten

The New United States, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:Gone but not forgotten

Did he just retire, or what?

Rateria

The New United States wrote:Did he just retire, or what?

Assassinated.

Miencraft, The New United States, The Completly Oppressive States, Rateria

The New United States wrote:Did he just retire, or what?

Sorta just hopped off one day, made a brief goodbye, and we never heard from him again.

The New United States, Rateria

The States Of Balloon wrote:Assassinated.

John F. Condealism, ??? - 2016 or so

The New United States, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:Sorta just hopped off one day, made a brief goodbye, and we never heard from him again.

Aw.

Rateria

Hello, all.

The New United States, Rateria, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order

Engimaticconservatarian wrote:Hello, all.

Welcome to Libertatem!

The New United States

Engimaticconservatarian wrote:Hello, all.

Guys, guys.

Enigmatic Conservatarian. What's that remind you of? Yep. Conservative Idealism.

Enigmatic. Remember what Condy left us before he left? I can't say for safety reasons, but, if you were a high ranking official at the time he left, or at all really, you'll know what that means.

He's back fellas. ALL HAIL LORD CONDY!

(Welcome to Libertatem, new guy.)

Miencraft, Rateria, Venomringo

Engimaticconservatarian wrote:Hello, all.

Yeah, ok, sure.

Engimaticconservatarian wrote:Hello, all.

Hey new guy, I'm a conservatarian as well, welcome to Libertatem.

This ain't my first rodeo playing NS; and I've never personally had a government that isn't corrupt. Somehow i'm in the world 10% for Government Integrity.

Rateria

I wish California would try to secede so the federal government could invade, dissolve the state government and start over, Reconstruction style. This state would be much better off!

Miencraft, Rateria

Despite the Republican Congress's absolute incompetence and hypocrisy on the issue of controlling spending, they have actually accomplished a lot this session: tax cuts and reform, deregulation including partial repeal of Dodd-Frank, right to try, VA reform, and the reshaping of the judiciary. The House just near-unanimously passed a deregulation bill that would primarily benefit small business - co sponsored by Mad Maxine herself. Plenty of good news out there!

Rateria

Pevvania wrote:I wish California would try to secede so the federal government could invade, dissolve the state government and start over, Reconstruction style. This state would be much better off!

They wouldn't have to, just let them leave, and then when they run out of water in a month they'll be begging to come back.

Pevvania, Rateria

I think President Trump just made the most compelling argument for protectionism that I've heard:

https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-the-point-of-a-trade-war-isnt-who-wins-or-loses-its-having-a-good-time/

Rateria

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Written by Refuge Isle.