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Region: Libertatem

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Statists believe that giving money to bureaucrats will lead to prosperity trickling down to everyone else. Statists believe in trickle-down economics.

Pevvania wrote:Statists believe that giving money to bureaucrats will lead to prosperity trickling down to everyone else. Statists believe in trickle-down economics.

?

Republic Of Minerva wrote:?

it's just some fiscal humour

cool my country has beem upgraded from left leaning college state to paradise.

signed the president of the united environmentalist statez of mhomen

Whoever's online TG me.

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen wrote:How. are you guys???

Not too bad. A little slow around here, but still. How are you?

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen wrote:Or are you at work pevvian ???

It's my day off today. I forgot how awesome eating at work is.

>libertarianism has never been adopted anywhere which means its bad

>libertarianism has failed everywhere it's been adopted which means it's bad

Post self-deleted by Yrellian Confederacy.

Sure worked in medieval Iceland

Pevvania wrote:>libertarianism has never been adopted anywhere which means its bad

>libertarianism has failed everywhere it's been adopted which means it's bad

*puts on hat labeled "Devil's Advocate"*

>communism has never truly been adopted anywhere which means its bad

>communism has failed everywhere it's been adopted which means it's bad

Pevvania

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Sure worked in medieval Iceland

And modern Iceland, too. I met somebody at the Freedom Forum the other day whose lecturer was the one who invited Milton Friedman to the country in the 80s, where he influenced policy makers to introduce a range of free-market reforms.

Pevvania wrote:And modern Iceland, too. I met somebody at the Freedom Forum the other day whose lecturer was the one who invited Milton Friedman to the country in the 80s, where he influenced policy makers to introduce a range of free-market reforms.

Thankfully the Independence Party-Progress coalition didn't disown Friedmania. Can't say the same for the average leftist Icelander though.

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11094717_992669880760681_4650271264973436256_n.png?oh=1f65cc917ccda86e1f7370c6545cc556&oe=55A15E25

So what's the deal with Anarchist Memes?

It's not anarchist

and has no memes!

Liberosia

Just discovered some excellent factbooks by Minerva's alternate nation [nation=short]The Liberated Territories[/nation]:

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=380698

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=330739

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=388808

The middle one highlights something important: before anti-poverty programs are cut, corporate welfare and regulation should be cut first. Especially the latter. Easy wealth creation can help to ease the transition from welfare to work.

Liberosia

Below is my response to Minerva's critique of the ancap position. I generally agree with him on most everything...except for this. I'll be reading Nozick more to check myself...too late, I've already wreaked myself. http://www.nationstates.net/nation=liberosia/detail=factbook/id=398649

The Case for a Free Market

The anarcho-capitalist position is that the State is a gang of thieves and, for those reasons commonly espoused, an inherently immoral association for the coerced relationship it creates through taxation and anti-liberty regulation of the individuals residing within the State. That States have the ability to enforce legitimate property rights, and do so on occasion, does not change the fact that, defining State qua State, it must first commit immoral actions (i.e. initiated, coercive actions) against its territorial victims. As consensus philosophy is the only means for a State to truly obtain and hold its power, the anarchs-capitalist seeks first to radically alter the predominant societal ideology(ies) and change the minds of those individuals residing within a State to a preference for rational philosophy. Thus, the prime condition for an anarchic (market-oriented, capitalistic, propertarian) society is a populace who cherishes liberty (i.e. their own lives) and recognizes the universal preference for property rights (individuals who have become, in essence, rationally selfish in the Objectivist sense of the term). This also is a condition often recognized by minarchists that is needed for a society with “limited” government, and yet such a (dare I say it) fiction has not, and intuitively cannot, ever existed.

The definitions of “State” and “dispute resolution organization” are paramount in this case. Both are organizations of people, both provide a service to people, and both are economic organizations benefiting certain people. The primary difference between the two is the sinister element of physical coercion, specifically its initiation. Rejecting the theory of the “social contract”, there is fundamentally only a single alternate theory: that of Franz Oppenheimer, the conquest theory of the State. The government is natural in the same sense that the state of nature (according to Locke, that state of freedom and danger) is “natural”. The State is natural because certain people in the world naturally seek to extort, rob, rape, and murder to achieve their pathetic existences. While the State in its modern democratic form may seem less evil, we should remind ourselves of the mass slaughter of the 20th century, much of which was perpetuated by allegedly Western, democratic governments. While this is far from the ideal of the minarchic State, it should be noted that many of these democratic governments were, some time earlier, close to the laissez-faire ideal.

This redirects to the possibility of competing defense agencies. It is exactly the factor of “competition” (a dynamic, rivalrous process, using the Austrian definition) that makes anarcho-capitalism different from statist libertarianism. Suppose Leroy starts a business in anarchist Beijing, and he offers his services to the people surrounding the population center (assuming these kind of living arrangements still exist in the anarchist society). As a single market actor, Leroy and co. may vertically integrate (although this is not necessary) and decide to offer dispute resolution (with enforcement) and practical protection. The difference here is the difference between law/property rights disagreements and general protection from criminals. The difference between the after and the before. The difference between retaliation and defense.

To the latter, the idea that defense is a natural monopoly is a myth on two accounts: 1) the concept of “natural monopoly” ignores the omnipresence of competition in a free market and 2) there are opportunities to profit through competition as in other sectors of the economy. Suppose Leroy is making substantial profits, and so Hector enters the market and offers his protection services at a lower rate; the patrolling of areas does not have to be a monopoly in the absolute sense or the practical sense: 1) both could patrol simultaneously and 2) the firms could negotiate an agreement (a loose form of cartel). It will be pointed out that the first is inefficient (for obvious reasons) and so a State might be preferable. This ignores the empirical fact that State’s are horridly inefficient and that the firms would be incentivized to negotiate an agreement as in scenario two. If the two firms evinced to merge together, then the process of competition would act as when Leroy was the sole market actor. If the firm has a vast majority market share, this does not exempt it from the process of competition (as defined above).

To the former, the issue of legal retaliation is somewhat more complex, yet even more competitive than practical defense. In the case of dispute resolution, numerable firms could exist for the production of these legal goods, and all could subscribe to, perhaps, Leroy’s firm. Hypothetically, Leroy may have not vertically integrated; rather, he may have offered his services to customers other than the general populace: he may have had, as customers, the various legal firms. These legal firms could offer their services within a single geographical territory and through a process of arbitration could form a basic common law. As property rights are dependent on the concept of “mine” and “yours” as based on production, the law and legalese offered by the firms would originate from the philosophy of liberty, and the differences would be only those revolving around minute instances of judicial interpretation in specific instances, where information may be imperfect. Yet, the objective standard of ethics being life, the objective root of preference in this predominantly libertarian society is selfish interest, rendering law generally uniform.

To a slight digression, noting that the existence of a market for retaliation/defense can exist, no mention of anarchism can be mentioned without a comment on the general irrationality of the State qua State. The State is a band of brigands, a gang of thieves, that does, counter-reason, have the general consent of its victims (some may call this indoctrination or delusion). Classical libertarians recognize the need for freedom, and so seek to ensure it by creating a moral State. Yet in the process, the exact opposite occurs, and they ensure the violation of the rights of man, a guarantee of coercion, exactly an institution that has the power and “right” to enforce its will on people (i.e. enforce the will of psychopaths on people). The idea that a State can be moral depends on the idea that there will not be in existence individuals who use the power. Checks and balances are a fallacy, contained in a single organization there can fundamentally be no checks and balances, and as Patrick Henry would have noted, an excuse to rule is hidden in the idea of “self-restrained government”. The concept is similar to the self-government of an individual, with the exception that most individuals are not psychopaths and that the State, as that practical/legal organization with the power to coerce and destroy and “enforce”, would be the leading attractant of evil people, as it was, as it became, as it is. The State is a band of brigands, writ large.

Pevvania

Is that the real Liberosia? Hmm. I thought you had gone forever.

Liberosia, Hallo Island

The only people in this region that I see post that large amount of libertarianism are Pev and Liberosia. Pev is probably having his beauty sleep so it's liberosia.

Liberosia, Conservative Idealism In Libertatem

The Amarican Empire wrote:The only people in this region that I see post that large amount of libertarianism are Pev and Liberosia. Pev is probably having his beauty sleep so it's liberosia.

You said it.

Liberosia

It was getting a little minarchisty

Hallo Island

I'm beginning to become disillusioned with minarchy, though I do wonder what could possibly exist in an anarchic system to deincentivize crime.

Other people, in cooperation; retaliation or fear thereof. As I talked about in the article, anarchism a change in the dominant consensus philosophy. It's not that anarcho-capitalists want to pop the State out of existence. The very real fear of chaos would follow in the current irrational society. Reason is a pre-requisite to liberty. The State is inevitable in an irrational society, and changing it is futile in the long run. There is an inverse relationship of reason and the State.

An-cap:

Rationality can be taught!

An-com:

Kill everyone who is "irrational"!

Hallo Island, The Neo-Confederate States Of America

Kowloon Walled City:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

Very similar to a working example of libertarianism, although more in the "Somalia is actually better off" argument. Although crime was definitely a problem, and there was no state to deal with the Chinese Mafia, which could extort any person they wished. Regardless, private citizens got by. If it wasn't for that continue rape of the NAP, it would be libertarian in my book.

May respond to Liberosia one day. Or I'll pull a Rawls. Dunno. Whatever I feel like

Excellent essay, Liberosia.

I think the main problem with the libertarian idea of creating a small state is that it's extremely difficult to sustain. Bad people will always be around to take advantage of the state, and as long as it is based on democracy there will be masses of people to abuse it to coerce minorities. There can be little long-term security of freedom under a state, no matter how small.

Let's imagine a perfect ancap world. A mad scientist is secretly developing a nuclear bomb to blow up a very large city, and since there are no secret services what would happened ?

Rand Paul is running for President!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKDWtdUHP4

Right-Winged Nation, Muh Roads, Conservative Idealism In Libertatem, Yrellian Confederacy

Pevvania wrote:I think the main problem with the libertarian idea of creating a small state is that it's extremely difficult to sustain. Bad people will always be around to take advantage of the state, and as long as it is based on democracy there will be masses of people to abuse it to coerce minorities. There can be little long-term security of freedom under a state, no matter how small.

It's funny that you're saying this despite being the leader of a majority party and head of a legislative body consisting entirely of people in that party. Or ironic. Whichever.

Pevvania wrote:Rand Paul is running for President!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKDWtdUHP4

Yessss!

God I like his speech #Rand2016

Lol at the background music being the song I just recently added to FRR :P

Pevvania wrote:Rand Paul is running for President!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKDWtdUHP4

Boo

Senator Paul's speech was far better then Cruz's. He sounds more believable and no one was forced to attend Paul's announcement.

Hallo Island

The Amarican Empire wrote:Senator Paul's speech was far better then Cruz's. He sounds more believable and no one was forced to attend Paul's announcement.

Shots fired

Hallo Island

I was less than two miles away from that event at the time it happened. I wanted more than anything to be there.

Pevvania, Hallo Island

Yrellian Confederacy wrote:Let's imagine a perfect ancap world. A mad scientist is secretly developing a nuclear bomb to blow up a very large city, and since there are no secret services what would happened ?

Private secret services would deal with it. They'd work voluntarily with telecom companies to find out what he's doing and put a stop to it.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:It's funny that you're saying this despite being the leader of a majority party and head of a legislative body consisting entirely of people in that party. Or ironic. Whichever.

As I've said before, NationStates is inherently statist. You cannot get around that.

Question: do progressive income taxes violate the 'equality under the law' clause of the 14th Amendment?

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:I was less than two miles away from that event at the time it happened. I wanted more than anything to be there.

Oh man, that's terrible! What kept you?

Pevvania wrote:As I've said before, NationStates is inherently statist. You cannot get around that.

Might as well embrace it, especially if it gives you an avenue to introduce anti-statism.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Oh man, that's terrible! What kept you?

Might as well embrace it, especially if it gives you an avenue to introduce anti-statism.

I was at a campaign leadership summit downtown and I spent a lot of money to be there.

Another reason why Mike Gravel is terrible: he believes in ravaging the Constitution and republican principles by turning the US into a direct democracy. In the last ten years, this could have meant inflation-adjusted minimum wage laws, gun control and socialised medicine and the Courts would be powerless to stop any of these.

Fun fact: it is highly unlikely that any Tea Partier, Libertarian, or conservative that claims to defend the constitution and uses the constitution, would not actually support it passing today as it favors a drastically centralized government as compared to most other options.

Pevvania, Conservative Idealism In Libertatem, Hallo Island

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:Fun fact: it is highly unlikely that any Tea Partier, Libertarian, or conservative that claims to defend the constitution and uses the constitution, would not actually support it passing today as it favors a drastically centralized government as compared to most other options.

Very good point. Some, like Adam Kokesh, argue that the Constitution was a step back for liberty, and that we should have retained the Articles of Confederation. I should get around to reading it some day.

Pevvania wrote:Very good point. Some, like Adam Kokesh, argue that the Constitution was a step back for liberty, and that we should have retained the Articles of Confederation. I should get around to reading it some day.

Don't say that name. If you must address that ignorant [profanity], do it as He Who Must Not Be Named.

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:Fun fact: it is highly unlikely that any Tea Partier, Libertarian, or conservative that claims to defend the constitution and uses the constitution, would not actually support it passing today as it favors a drastically centralized government as compared to most other options.

Agreed... but I would prefer the government it calls for to the government we have now.

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:Don't say that name. If you must address that ignorant [profanity], do it as He Who Must Not Be Named.

Aside from his disrespect for the troops (which is a little less bad than traditional troop-bashing since he was once a marine), I like Adam Kokesh a lot. He had the courage to exercise his Second Amendment rights in Washington DC, and he was imprisoned for it. He's a real revolutionary. His disdain for troops is a tiny part of who he is.

NSG: Lacking in common sense and basic economics since forever

Liberosia, Pevvania

Uh i would support the constitution

Republic Of Minerva wrote:NSG: Lacking in common sense and basic economics since forever

NSG: Lacking

Saying that NSG lacks something is an insult to Lack.

Pevvania, Hallo Island, Yrellian Confederacy

Republic Of Minerva wrote:NSG: Lacking in common sense and basic economics since forever

NSG is a self-indulgent, circle-jerking eco-chamber that weeds out rational opposition. It's a good intellectual challenge, though, and there are more libertarians there now, which is good.

One of the worst has got to be 'Yumyumsuppertime'. He's not just a 'pragmatic statist, if such a thing exists - he's an ideoligical statist that has a number of preconceived notions about the world that he pulled completely out of his ass without any prior critical thinking or rational analysis. Sadly, he ends up creating a plurality of General threads.

austrian economics isnt real economics becos it doesnt use models

stimulus

Hallo Island

We need a constitution in libretatem. almost definately

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen wrote:We need a constitution in libretatem. almost definately

Man, I wish there were some way to magically make one appear right now.

That said, and I'm saying this in public, it's incredibly and painfully obvious that you did not actually read our laws and have lied on your citizenship application.

So, uh, have fun.

http://libertatem.shivtr.com/forum_threads/1743158

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen wrote:We need a constitution in libretatem. almost definately

Haha, we do have one friend. It's under the laws link. We're extremely statist if you couldn't tell! xD

NS takes time to get used too. Thanks for being so active in the region however!

Muh Roads wrote:Haha, we do have one friend. It's under the laws link. We're extremely statist if you couldn't tell! xD

NS takes time to get used too. Thanks for being so active in the region however!

This, however, is presidential.

Shoot. Today I learned that "corporatism" doesn't mean what I thought it meant.

Corporatism is a sociopolitical structure where the rights of the individual are ignored and public policy decisions are determined by "corporate" entities (interest groups, in other words). Come to think of it, I'm against that too, so I guess Anti-Corporatist Party is still a fitting title for the party. Well, somewhat.

I should have called it the Anti-Corporationist Party.

i know we have one !!! maybe some ammendments would be good through

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen wrote:i know we have one !!! maybe some ammendments would be good through

The thirteen amendments already in place not good enough for you?

Muh Roads, Conservative Idealism In Libertatem

> Extremely socially-conservative populace

> Least stupid citizens in Libertatem

The proof is in the puddin', y'all.

So guys i think Rand Paul is running under the republican party :( . It's our two party system

Right-Winged Nation wrote:So guys i think Rand Paul is running under the republican party :( . It's our two party system

He could run under the super ultra commie hippie love power team go party for all I care, Rand has great potential.

United Environmentalist States Of Mhomen

Here's some free knowledge, children. Enjoy!

Muh Roads wrote:He could run under the super ultra commie hippie love power team go party for all I care, Rand has great potential.

But you know that Americans look for a D or an R, oh well go Rand Paul

Are you a radical edgy libertarian who wants to slap nanny-statists and chew bubblegum? Then join the Libertarian Party of Calaverde!

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=336532

(Make sure you sign up for the senate first if you haven't)

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=322918

Post self-deleted by Phil Face.

Wouldn't it be cool if there was and economy/money system in Nation States?

Phil Face wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if there was and economy/money system in Nation States?

There is.

http://www.broomdces.com/nseconomy/

There is one thing that I find difficult to fight with statists over, and that is government-run healthcare. As we all know, the laws of economics and historical experience show that market-run healthcare leads to efficiency, lower costs and higher quality. But the British NHS and other forms of socialised medicine run so well, from a patient's point of view. Why is this? How can this be countered?

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/11087809_10155421160520788_5508901004746921203_o.jpg

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/10452942_10155421160530788_2242380255076627237_o.jpg

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/1980243_10155421160510788_2362256713220179135_o.jpg

This is why Britain is not free... slavery is popular.

Feeling great to have a private insurance :D #Godblessswitzerland

Yrellian Confederacy wrote:Feeling great to have a private insurance :D #Godblessswitzerland

Indeed...

http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

The Amarican Empire wrote:http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

108 for me.

Obama deserves some credit for the Iran nuclear negotiations. He resisted the pressure and the temptation to go to war with Iran, which would have spawned devastating repercussions. Even refusing to bomb it took guts. I hope this thing turns out well.

Pevvania wrote:Obama deserves some credit for the Iran nuclear negotiations. He resisted the pressure and the temptation to go to war with Iran, which would have spawned devastating repercussions. Even refusing to bomb it took guts. I hope this thing turns out well.

We all know it won't

The Amarican Empire wrote:http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

140

Behold another discussion topic:

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=336654&f=20&view=unread#unread

Pevvania wrote:160.

So you answered yes to every question? Lol

Right-Winged Nation wrote:We all know it won't

You may be right. Deals of this kind have had mixed results in the past, and an especially poor record in the Middle East.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:88. Definitely not hardcore.

Statist!!!!

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:So you answered yes to every question? Lol

Yep. The ones that I would've answered no to - like withdrawing from all foreign military bases - I believe should be done in the long term. So that was a technical yes.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Behold another discussion topic:

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=336654&f=20&view=unread#unread

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, it's locked.

160, get on muh level.

Also guys, I've got some serious training to do for my new job... (yes again.) But I will still be on errday.

Pevvania, Ankha

Today I met the US Ambassador to Jamaica in a small town Indiana grocery store. She bought milk.

Pevvania, Republic Of Minerva, Ankha

How many recruitment telegrams have we sent this year?

OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!

Hallo Island, Ankha, The Neo-Confederate States Of America

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:How many recruitment telegrams have we sent this year?

OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!

*has 94 nations*

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:*has 94 nations*

Whatever Roads did last time worked exceptionally well...

ROADS, CAN YOU DO IT AGAIN?

I just realized I misspelled "Libertatem" as Liberatem...

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