Post Archive

Region: Libertatem

History

Heavily Austrian, but some allowance for Chicago School econometrics (but informed by Austrian methodology). As a child of the 60s, I am extremely hostile to the Keynesian insanity that brought the inflation-minimun wage increase tag team spiral of LBJ; the devastating command economy wage and price control crap of Nixon, and the stagflation/forced underground economy of Carter--we got the worst of it. I am an anarcho-capitalist at heart, but have lived long enough, and am cynical enough to think that because of the natural condition of the human race the best we can hope for is to create a well informed, educated, and morally responsible society atuned to minarchism.

The Aradites wrote:What economic schools do you guys adhere to? Personally, I'm prone to the Austrian School, but I still need to look into it more.

Keynesian

Hah.

No.

Austrian.

The Aradites wrote:What economic schools do you guys adhere to? Personally, I'm prone to the Austrian School, but I still need to look into it more.

Common sense.

I know, I know. No one does that anymore. So someone has to keep it alive.

The United States Of Patriots, Ompedius, Libertitad

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:Common sense.

I know, I know. No one does that anymore. So someone has to keep it alive.

Hah. Common sense is a lie. It simply doesn't exist.

Some people just have the instincts to not get themselves killed by doing stupid stuff. We took that and ran with it.

Now the common understanding of "common sense" has grown to the point of being a complete lie.

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:Hah. Common sense is a lie. It simply doesn't exist.

Thomas Paine says hello.

Rateria

Narland wrote:Heavily Austrian, but some allowance for Chicago School econometrics (but informed by Austrian methodology). As a child of the 60s, I am extremely hostile to the Keynesian insanity that brought the inflation-minimun wage increase tag team spiral of LBJ; the devastating command economy wage and price control crap of Nixon, and the stagflation/forced underground economy of Carter--we got the worst of it. I am an anarcho-capitalist at heart, but have lived long enough, and am cynical enough to think that because of the natural condition of the human race the best we can hope for is to create a well informed, educated, and morally responsible society atuned to minarchism.

Miencraft wrote:Keynesian

Hah.

No.

Austrian.

Where do you recommend looking into to learn more about the Austrian School?

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:Hah. Common sense is a lie. It simply doesn't exist.

It used to. But these days, I must sadly agree with you.

Rateria, Libertitad

Miencraft wrote:Thomas Paine says hello.

Well, the pamphlet exists... The concept doesn't.

Rateria

Miencraft wrote:Thomas Paine says hello.

Where in NY are you from?

I'm an Austrian

My marginal utility brings all the girls to the yard.

The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad

My last region didn't have political parties, how do they work on this site and do I really need to join one?

San Andrias wrote:Where in NY are you from?

Long Island.

Ompedius wrote:My last region didn't have political parties, how do they work on this site and do I really need to join one?

Here at Libertatem they work kinda like how you'd expect a political party to work.

Which is to say, it's just a little couple of letters you attach to your own name that shows which of them you support most. You don't really need to join any of them.

Ompedius

Miencraft wrote:Long Island.

AKA "Lawn Guy Land"

Miencraft wrote:Long Island.

Sincerest condolences.

Miencraft, New Jaslandia, The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad

The Aradites wrote:What economic schools do you guys adhere to? Personally, I'm prone to the Austrian School, but I still need to look into it more.

I should really research economics, especially because most of the people in my generation are economically illiterate (mind that I'm 15).

Hello people of Libertatem!

As the recent appointed Minister for Foreign Affairs, I am to continue the work done by our prior minister. I'd like to know the thoughts and if Libertatem is still willing to sign the Interregional Cooperation Treaty (ICT). You must have already received a TG or two from our Region, but I'd like to hear from you personally.

Best Regards

Miencraft wrote:Long Island.

I'm west of Lake George.

Rateria wrote:I should really research economics, especially because most of the people in my generation are economically illiterate (mind that I'm 15).

Thomas Sowell's book Basic Economics is largely non-ideological and as, well as basic as you can go. Pick up that if you can.

Rateria

The Aradites wrote:Where do you recommend looking into to learn more about the Austrian School?

Very Good

Austrian Economics: A Primer Paperback – by Eamonn Butler

How an Economy Grows and Why It Crashes - Peter D Schiff

Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand… -- Henry Hazlitt

What Has Government Done to Our Money? - Murray N Rothbard

Austrian School Business Cycle Theory - Murray N Rothbard

Human Action: The Scholar's Edition - Ludwig von Mises

Man, Economy, and State with Power and Market, Scholar's Edition - Murray N Rothbard

I, Pencil: My Family Tree as Told to Leonard E Read - by Leonard Read

Be careful with these. Read them by first being informed by von Mises and Hayek

The Mainspring of Human Progress Paperback – by Henry Grady Weave

On the Origins of Money - by Carl Menger

Take with a grain of salt. They have Austrian elements that emphasis individual responsibility; just weights and measures, but may be inconsistent in with other things. Most notably they do not necessilly subscribe to Austrian Economics, but much of their understanding can be conducive to it.

Honest Money - Gary N North

Is Capitalism Christian? - Franky Schaeffer

Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators: A Biblical Response to Ronald J. Sider - David Chilton

The Aradites, Libertitad

I forgot to include:

Not Economic, but Conducive to Austrian Economics -- anything by von Mises and Hayek

The Law - Frederic Bastiat

Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis - by Ludwig von Mises

The Road to Serfdom - F A Hayek

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Socialism - Kevin D Williamson

Republic Of Minerva, The Aradites

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Lastly, Western Civ tends to focus on Political History (even those who say history is an economic struggle focus on the political winners). It is very hard to find other understandings of history to put economics into perspective. Mainspring of Human Progress is helpful, but muddles the middle ages (especially the clash between Christianity and Islam). The Book of Spices by Frederic Rosengarten, Jr has in its beginning "A Brief History of Spices" that helps understand where all the money (gold and silver) of the Roman Empire disappeared to, the loss of communication between Europe and East Asia, and Western Civ rising as part of its impetus was re-establishing the old trade routes that were cut off by the Syrian Empire inherited by the Islamic expansion.

Note: Read after Mainspring of Human Progress

Book of Spices - Frederic Rosengarten, Jr "A Short History of Spices" (pages 5-96).

________________________________

I hope that helps. By the time you reach College you will have an excellent breadth of knowledge for understanding with the Austrian School.

The Aradites

Rateria wrote:I should really research economics, especially because most of the people in my generation are economically illiterate (mind that I'm 15).

Ah someone close to my age group.(I'm seventeen)

But as Minerva said Tomas Sowell's is the best bet. Also I would add to your statement most of our generation are just plain illiterate

Rateria, Bastians

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Ah someone close to my age group.(I'm seventeen)

But as Minerva said Tomas Sowell's is the best bet. Also I would add to your statement most of our generation are just plain illiterate

This age group (of which I'm of as well, 17) is unfortunate for literacy about economics or even politics (which even those that are politically aware, are primarily socialist, and those that are conservative or libertarian are usually ostracized by the school), as students are mainly brainwashed with the opinion of "Government good, anti-government bad"

What is nice about learning about economics is that, although one can debate politics with someone, but you most likely won't change any opinions. With econ, it is something that is actually listened to and make those with certain viewpoints change because of one proving a certain problem caused economically.

It's especially bad in Canada (specifically, Quebec for me) where people look at you like you eat babies by saying something like "I don't think the minimum wage is at all necessary" or god forbid "Universal Healthcare is horrible".

Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Bastians, Libertitad

The Aradites wrote:

...It's especially bad in Canada (specifically, Quebec for me).

Im so sorry

San Andrias, Rateria, Bastians

The Aradites wrote:This age group (of which I'm of as well, 17) is unfortunate for literacy about economics or even politics (which even those that are politically aware, are primarily socialist, and those that are conservative or libertarian are usually ostracized by the school), as students are mainly brainwashed with the opinion of "Government good, anti-government bad"

What is nice about learning about economics is that, although one can debate politics with someone, but you most likely won't change any opinions. With econ, it is something that is actually listened to and make those with certain viewpoints change because of one proving a certain problem caused economically.

It's especially bad in Canada (specifically, Quebec for me) where people look at you like you eat babies by saying something like "I don't think the minimum wage is at all necessary" or god forbid "Universal Healthcare is horrible".

I'm a 16 year old from California. It's pretty much all big government here.

San Andrias, Rateria, Libertitad

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Most kids have to be home-schooled or attend private school to have I Pencil; Whatever Happened to Penny Candy?; or the Law as reading material anymore. The 5000 Year Leap was one of my middle school civics textbooks, and a 10mm film presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I --a Philosophy of Liberty was shown to my 6th grade class. A good classical education involving the Trivium, Quadrivium, and American Civics as devised by our founders and developed by the local counties helped produce some of the brightest minds in World history (until hijacked by Dewey, and the Progressive Modern Education "Progressives"). I am fortunate that the Dewey progressives didn't start taking over the curriculum of my school system until i was half way through grade school and a lot of teachers refused to conform into turning us into good little proles.

Libertitad

Bastians wrote:I'm a 16 year old from California. It's pretty much all big government here.

I feel the worst for refugees in the People's Republic of California.

The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Thomas Sowell's book Basic Economics is largely non-ideological and as, well as basic as you can go. Pick up that if you can.

Thank you for the recommendation.

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Ah someone close to my age group.(I'm seventeen)

But as Minerva said Tomas Sowell's is the best bet. Also I would add to your statement most of our generation are just plain illiterate

The Aradites wrote:This age group (of which I'm of as well, 17) is unfortunate for literacy about economics or even politics (which even those that are politically aware, are primarily socialist, and those that are conservative or libertarian are usually ostracized by the school), as students are mainly brainwashed with the opinion of "Government good, anti-government bad"

What is nice about learning about economics is that, although one can debate politics with someone, but you most likely won't change any opinions. With econ, it is something that is actually listened to and make those with certain viewpoints change because of one proving a certain problem caused economically.

It's especially bad in Canada (specifically, Quebec for me) where people look at you like you eat babies by saying something like "I don't think the minimum wage is at all necessary" or god forbid "Universal Healthcare is horrible".

I honestly agree with you both about our generation's state. Once our worst come to power, we'll be doomed, if we aren't already.

The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10632809_1578053682487296_619351729408252913_n.jpg?oh=f5295a9f39b1fc2d449fe7ab6dd79dc8&oe=57CB1ECF

anyone willing to help me turn this into a graph of some sort?

Republic Of Minerva wrote:https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10632809_1578053682487296_619351729408252913_n.jpg?oh=f5295a9f39b1fc2d449fe7ab6dd79dc8&oe=57CB1ECF

anyone willing to help me turn this into a graph of some sort?

I will

Republic Of Minerva wrote:https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10632809_1578053682487296_619351729408252913_n.jpg?oh=f5295a9f39b1fc2d449fe7ab6dd79dc8&oe=57CB1ECF

anyone willing to help me turn this into a graph of some sort?

What type of graph do you want?

The United States Of Patriots wrote:What type of graph do you want?

Line or plot

Does spanking violate the NAP? I think so.

http://anarchei.me/post/44500589948/does-spanking-violate-the-non-aggression

All parental discipline is force or coercion: time-outs, grounding, removing of privileges, etc. Parenting is a benevolent dictatorship.

From "eat your vegetables" to "tell your sister you're sorry" the only NAP kids need is in the afternoon.

So since nobody's really had any opinions on it in ages, I'm going to put Humpy's Constitution and my own up for vote either today or tomorrow, and I'll leave them up there for a while so we can get the 2/3 we need.

I'm not quite sure how we're supposed to get 2/3 when pretty much 90% of our citizenship base doesn't seem to do anything, but, hey, we can try.

I'd urge everyone to vote NO on all proposed constitutions until the citizenship applications (like mine) get processed.

I sent mine to Roads 34 days ago, with no response back.

Bad Libertopia wrote:I'd urge everyone to vote NO on all proposed constitutions until the citizenship applications (like mine) get processed.

I sent mine to Roads 34 days ago, with no response back.

I mean, maybe you could factor in the fact that he's the manager of Internal Affairs, therefore the guy to whom everyone telegrams citizenship applications, and the fact that he just recently got back from a decently long disappearing act, therefore allowing for some applications to potentially have disappeared, been lost, or forgotten...

And since he is active now I'm not going to go around him and declare you a citizen. So maybe if you ask him nicely and send him your application again he'll process it.

What's up guys. It's awesome to see that the Libertarian Party is finally getting press coverage! Kinda restores some of my faith in the US media/political system, because this proves they're not totally trying to lock out third party candidates, which have cropped up in dozens of election cycles over the years. Ross Perot was arguably a spoiler for Bush in 92, after all.

Also, dank liberty meme here: https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13322095_633577963466615_6551034747176270980_n.jpg?oh=482eb2a18d31f5e5c6f64f2b2d184beb&oe=57E2F8F2

WELD THE JOHNSON!

Yeah Weld isn't the most libertarian guy out there. So what? He's the Veep, he's not required to do anything but sit there and look pretty. Just hope GayJay doesn't kick the bucket in office. Besides, he got an "A" from Cato in fiscal discipline and that's good enough for me.

Pevvania, Ompedius

Pevvania wrote:What's up guys. It's awesome to see that the Libertarian Party is finally getting press coverage! Kinda restores some of my faith in the US media/political system, because this proves they're not totally trying to lock out third party candidates, which have cropped up in dozens of election cycles over the years. Ross Perot was arguably a spoiler for Bush in 92, after all.

Also, dank liberty meme here: https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13322095_633577963466615_6551034747176270980_n.jpg?oh=482eb2a18d31f5e5c6f64f2b2d184beb&oe=57E2F8F2

My guess is that the Establishment has finally realized that they are f*cked to put it nicely and will back Johnson in order to at least prevent a Trump election or take it to the House to be decided on.

Rateria

What interests me is the unprecedented alliance of the non and anti-intellectual conservatives of various stripes with the "moderate" socialist (crypto-progressive) establishment in the GOP. Some of the Never-Trumpers are supporting the Libertarian Party, but not for principle but spite. It is like stepping into the twilight zone.

Seems like most of the interesting regions are having activity issues recently... Strange coincidence.

A vote for neither is interpreted as a vote to not change at all. I haven't included a specific option for it because if neither gets the support it needs they both fail anyways.

Counter-proposal: I invade, tear up the existing Constitution, and establish a dictatorship-slash-theme-park. Eh? Eh?

New Jaslandia, Republic Of Minerva, Rateria

Conservative Idealism wrote:Counter-proposal: I invade, tear up the existing Constitution, and establish a dictatorship-slash-theme-park. Eh? Eh?

I like theme parks.

New Jaslandia

Miencraft wrote:I like theme parks.

I have a doubleplusgood idea for a 1984-themed roller coaster.

Rateria, Bastians

Feels like both constitutions call for more active officials than this place seems like it could currently sustain.

*shrug*

The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:Feels like both constitutions call for more active officials than this place seems like it could currently sustain.

*shrug*

I think the best part is that it's even fewer than we have now.

Bastians

Just got two Easter eggs in a day!

Libertitad

Teuberland wrote:Just got two Easter eggs in a day!

That's the total number of easter eggs I've gotten in 5 years.

Granted, I don't answer issues anymore, but still.

Teuberland

Doesn't really make sense to approve applications without an active constitution does it?

A vote for a constitution is a vote for fire kindling. Choose anarchy lol

Miencraft

Post self-deleted by Bastians.

What is up with the Gary Johnson scandal of not following the libertarian platform? Could anyone explain if it was legitimate or just a complete out of context quote?

Muh Roads wrote:Doesn't really make sense to approve applications without an active constitution does it?

Depends on whether you think the members of the region should get a say in their own governance.

Do your job or resign your post, sir.

Bastians, Ompedius

Road, when do you hold services at the Holy Church?

Critiques of the top 3 polling (then) possible nominees of the LP:

Johnson: Quite the bleeding heart, especially with the christian bakery forcing to bake a cake to gays thing.

Petersen: Quite conservative, pro-life enforcer, and unfortunately a really heavy memer that makes him seem cringey

McAfee: Drug/hookers/possible murderer isn't quite the most attractive for a voter

*Mind that it doesn't matter anymore due to GJ getting the nomination.

The Aradites wrote:Critiques of the top 3 polling (then) possible nominees of the LP:

Johnson: Quite the bleeding heart, especially with the christian bakery forcing to bake a cake to gays thing.

Petersen: Quite conservative, pro-life enforcer, and unfortunately a really heavy memer that makes him seem cringey

McAfee: Drug/hookers/possible murderer isn't quite the most attractive for a voter

*Mind that it doesn't matter anymore due to GJ getting the nomination.

Petersen didn't seem that conservative. The most conservative position he has is being pro life.

Bastians

Teuberland wrote:Petersen didn't seem that conservative. The most conservative position he has is being pro life.

Even on the pro-life issue he has exceptions.

Teuberland

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/01/could_gary_johnson_end_the_drug_war_libertarian_candidates_presidential_bid_could_put_sane_drug_policy_in_our_grasp/

you know something up when the Salon speaks well of a Libertarian candidate...

New Jaslandia, Bastians, Ompedius, Libertitad

GJ is still a semi zionist who would cater to AIPAC and other religious interest groups. That support costs more than what a true libertarian would want to spend.

Libertitad wrote:GJ is still a semi zionist who would cater to AIPAC and other religious interest groups. That support costs more than what a true libertarian would want to spend.

You don't boil a frog by dropping it straight into boiling water.

Libertitad

Republic Of Minerva wrote:http://www.salon.com/2016/06/01/could_gary_johnson_end_the_drug_war_libertarian_candidates_presidential_bid_could_put_sane_drug_policy_in_our_grasp/

you know something up when the Salon speaks well of a Libertarian candidate...

One article I read said Gary Johnson was polling at 10% against Hillary and Trump. I'm not a betting man, but I would predict Gary Johnson becoming the Ross Perot or Ralph Nader of this election.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/pay-attention-to-libertarian-gary-johnson-hes-pulling-10-vs-trump-and-clinton/

Republic Of Minerva, Bastians

Hello, we ask that you accept the embassy with our new region The Sacred Order! (:

Upplasia wrote:Hello, we ask that you accept the embassy with our new region The Sacred Order! (:

Yeah alrighty.

Libertitad

In other news, I'm going to need the IA department's definition of an "active citizen".

Because right now we've only got three citizen votes.

That's definitely not enough.

Miencraft wrote:In other news, I'm going to need the IA department's definition of an "active citizen".

Because right now we've only got three citizen votes.

That's definitely not enough.

Questions about your revision:

1. If the new constitution is ratified will all laws previously established be abolished? -Answered. I just needed to read to the end-

2. What is the purpose of this clause "The President shall hold any powers available to the Founder, at the Founder's discretion."

3. Would this only mean two people would have to vote for impeachment? "The Justice may be removed by a 2/3 majority in the Senate and Executive Cabinet."

4. Likewise does this suggest that an amendment would only need four yea votes? "Through Founder or Presidential approval and the approval of 2/3 of the Senate"

5. Is the purpose of this clause in A7§5, which reads "All citizens are entitled to the basic freedoms allowed to respected individuals", in essence the same as the tenth amendment of the US Constitution?

I quite like this "There's a reason the American Congress isn't the only body that can amend the Constitution. I've added a provision that allows for Citizens to do so as well (A6§1)."

Also what is the current number of active citizens?

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Questions about your revision:

1. If the new constitution is ratified will all laws previously established be abolished? -Answered. I just needed to read to the end-

2. What is the purpose of this clause "The President shall hold any powers available to the Founder, at the Founder's discretion."

3. Would this only mean two people would have to vote for impeachment? "The Justice may be removed by a 2/3 majority in the Senate and Executive Cabinet."

4. Likewise does this suggest that an amendment would only need four yea votes? "Through Founder or Presidential approval and the approval of 2/3 of the Senate"

5. Is the purpose of this clause in A7§5, which reads "All citizens are entitled to the basic freedoms allowed to respected individuals", in essence the same as the tenth amendment of the US Constitution?

I quite like this "There's a reason the American Congress isn't the only body that can amend the Constitution. I've added a provision that allows for Citizens to do so as well (A6§1)."

Also what is the current number of active citizens?

To clarify question 2 Im asking would it be a combined 2/3 or two separate 2/3 which both have to be yea to proceed?

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Questions about your revision:

1. If the new constitution is ratified will all laws previously established be abolished? -Answered. I just needed to read to the end-

2. What is the purpose of this clause "The President shall hold any powers available to the Founder, at the Founder's discretion."

3. Would this only mean two people would have to vote for impeachment? "The Justice may be removed by a 2/3 majority in the Senate and Executive Cabinet."

4. Likewise does this suggest that an amendment would only need four yea votes? "Through Founder or Presidential approval and the approval of 2/3 of the Senate"

5. Is the purpose of this clause in A7§5, which reads "All citizens are entitled to the basic freedoms allowed to respected individuals", in essence the same as the tenth amendment of the US Constitution?

I quite like this "There's a reason the American Congress isn't the only body that can amend the Constitution. I've added a provision that allows for Citizens to do so as well (A6§1)."

Also what is the current number of active citizens?

1. Good that you've answered that.

2. It basically just means that the President has all the powers over the region that the Founder has; WFE privileges, suppression, banjection, things like that.

3. That's combined Senate and Cabinet, so 4 of 6.

4. Technically yeah, unless we expand the Senate. Also 2/3 of active citizens, whatever that means.

5. I guess. I didn't change that at all, those are Humpy's exact words.

6. That's what I'm trying to find out. I need to know what the IA department says an active citizen is before we know how many we have.

Miencraft wrote:1. Good that you've answered that.

2. It basically just means that the President has all the powers over the region that the Founder has; WFE privileges, suppression, banjection, things like that.

3. That's combined Senate and Cabinet, so 4 of 6.

4. Technically yeah, unless we expand the Senate. Also 2/3 of active citizens, whatever that means.

5. I guess. I didn't change that at all, those are Humpy's exact words.

6. That's what I'm trying to find out. I need to know what the IA department says an active citizen is before we know how many we have.

Thank you very much, I think this is a good step towards revitalizing Libertatem!

this is the weirdest result I have gotten yet. I removed regulations on businesses and now "Private law firms are unheard of"

ರ_ರ

The United States Of Patriots wrote:this is the weirdest result I have gotten yet. I removed regulations on businesses and now "Private law firms are unheard of"

ರ_ರ

Apparently someone thought you removed business?

Looks like the Big Banks are releasing subprime mortgage loans again. This time they are targeting Uber.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I believe the government is trying to destroy Uber.

Finally got around to seeing Star Wars 7.

'twas good.

New Jaslandia

Republic Of Minerva wrote:

...I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I believe the government is trying to destroy Uber.

Whaaaat. what could possibly make you think that? Its not like the government has a taxi licensing program from which it gets money from. And we all know the government is above manipulating things to their own interests.

/s

Rateria, Teuberland, Bastians

Miencraft wrote:Finally got around to seeing Star Wars 7.

'twas good.

I still think empire is the best. I had an odd feeling that force awakens sort of ruined the ending of return of the jedi.

Still was a good film though

Under the constitution being voted on, non-citizens have no right to vote, speak, etc. and the (appointed) Chancellor of the Interior gets to decide who's a citizen and who's not.

Citizens have rights, but under the constitution anyone can have their citizenship revoked and then all their rights are gone. Good to be the king, eh?

Bad Libertopia wrote:Under the constitution being voted on, non-citizens have no right to vote, speak, etc. and the (appointed) Chancellor of the Interior gets to decide who's a citizen and who's not.

Citizens have rights, but under the constitution anyone can have their citizenship revoked and then all their rights are gone. Good to be the king, eh?

Remember that time I asked if people had feedback on my edits?

Remember how you didn't give any?

I honestly have no idea what you're complaining about or what you expect. Do you want to change things? Go write up some laws and change things. This is a game where libertarianism is literally the hardest thing possible, and we've got to work around the inherently-oppressive mechanics.

Do you think you can write a better Constitution? Be my guest. And I mean that. We need to stimulate some kind of activity. We need a good controversy, something to argue about. Go ahead, write up a Constitution if you really want to. I'd love to see it.

It's not the constitution, it's the constituents. I applied for citizenship and my application was ignored.

You suggested I resubmit it (which I did) and "ask Roads nicely" (which I didn't do--my application should be considered on its merits and not subject to the capricious whim of a government official).

Roads refuses to process the application until the new constitution is voted on, which means I don't get a vote on it.

Why should I or any non-citizen try to "change things" or "write up some laws" when we have no rights, no voice, and no vote?

Bad Libertopia wrote:It's not the constitution, it's the constituents. I applied for citizenship and my application was ignored.

You suggested I resubmit it (which I did) and "ask Roads nicely" (which I didn't do--my application should be considered on its merits and not subject to the capricious whim of a government official).

Roads refuses to process the application until the new constitution is voted on, which means I don't get a vote on it.

Why should I or any non-citizen try to "change things" or "write up some laws" when we have no rights, no voice, and no vote?

Hm this is a good. Though might I add that the new constitution (Miencrafts one) non-citizens are never mentioned. Without officially addressing them (non-citizens) and their rights. It should be assumed that none of there rights are curtailed, without any rights under law said to be reserved for citizens only. Also it seems to suggest that with out explicit stating non-citizens in the constitution it would seem, to me, that it has no jurisdiction over them.

I suggest we both clarify to whom the right to vote is reserved to. As well as replacing all references to citizens in Article VII to be worded as "Inhabitants of Libertatem" that seems like a way to work around the limitation of rights. If jurisdiction is assumed.

Ignore my grammatical errors I didn't spell check it.

Also when I mention right to vote I'm referring to the election process as well.

Idea: we create a new region, one with no executive delegate, and no formal government

Instant liberty.

Well this took for ever. I stayed up till' 3:36 revising Miencrafts revisions. I thinks I did a pretty good job, but I'm also starting to hallucinate from sleep deprivation. Anyway Its in my factbook now. I would highly appreciate some feedback, and sleep, but sleep first.

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Well this took for ever. I stayed up till' 3:36 revising Miencrafts revisions. I thinks I did a pretty good job, but I'm also starting to hallucinate from sleep deprivation. Anyway Its in my factbook now. I would highly appreciate some feedback, and sleep, but sleep first.

Aside from grammatical errors, a couple of things.

First: Why did you make senatorial and presidential elections divided into blocks? What's the point of that?

Second: Take a moment to think about how easily any random person can come in here and start trolling up a storm. It's happened before. Think about how, if we hadn't a non-executive Delegate, we'd be susceptible to tag-raiding. In the first instance, we can't afford to waste energy putting some random guy on trial, and in the second, there's no reason at all to ever put raiders on trial. In the current Constitution, we used to extend the right to trial to all people in Libertatem. It didn't work out very well, because we were just wasting our energy trying to put people on trial who would never show up to court in the first place. So we got rid of that right for non-citizens. Instead of extending the guarantee of trial and protection from banjection to everybody, perhaps we could introduce a clause that allows those who have been banjected to dispute it in a court of some kind. Perhaps of the Senate, because I guarantee one appointed Justice and his one appointed Solicitor isn't going to give a fair trial to anybody ever.

Third, and this isn't about your edits at all, it's addressing other things:

Bad Libertopia wrote:Why should I or any non-citizen try to "change things" or "write up some laws" when we have no rights, no voice, and no vote?

It's not my fault or anyone else's that you chose to just sit here and complain about that rather than actually doing something. I'm definitely not going to take you seriously if you're not willing to try to change anything. If you want to see it change, then make it change.

That said, Roads will soon be no longer Manager of IA, because, even though he's really good at what he does, his inactivity is absolutely unacceptable. I will be looking into finding a replacement. 5 citizens probably isn't enough to constitute 2/3, so this new Constitution won't pass.

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Though might I add that the new constitution (Miencrafts one) non-citizens are never mentioned. Without officially addressing them (non-citizens) and their rights. It should be assumed that none of there rights are curtailed, without any rights under law said to be reserved for citizens only. Also it seems to suggest that with out explicit stating non-citizens in the constitution it would seem, to me, that it has no jurisdiction over them.

I suggest we both clarify to whom the right to vote is reserved to. As well as replacing all references to citizens in Article VII to be worded as "Inhabitants of Libertatem" that seems like a way to work around the limitation of rights.

You already know my response to the last bit.

Non-citizens have historically never had any explicitly-stated rights because we simply can't give them any beyond free speech and free movement (which we already do). It's not possible to do anything more, given the game's mechanics. It's an inherently-oppressive game. Libertarianism is the hardest thing possible to do by far. Anything else would potentially compromise the security of the region. Thus, I am not willing to give non-citizens the right to vote or the right to trial, because anyone seeking ill could just create puppets, move them here en masse, elect some dictator President or approve some broken-to-hell law, and then go unpunished because, guess what, non-citizens have the right to do that. And then if a bunch of people move puppets here just to troll and be general dicks, guess what, we can't remove them because we have to put them on trial first.

Now, sure, that's worst-case scenario stuff, but so is assuming that, just because non-citizens don't have those rights, that they're going to be oppressed or something. Non-citizens haven't had a right to trial for years. Our banlist only has four nations on it. There was exactly one instance where someone was put on trial, and it wasn't for the same reason those four were banned. Those four were trolls and invaders. That one guy that got put on trial was convicted of treason. I'd rather we not open the doors up for trolls and unconventional invaders who will start abusing their right to vote to essentially do what any normal invaders do, and then be unpunishable because we need to put them all on trial for crimes they technically haven't committed.

I would be willing to grant non-citizens only the basic unalienable rights that I'm sure we're all familiar with, and the right to free movement in and out of the region. But no more than that, because then we compromise the security of the region.

And just stop for a moment and think of why real countries don't let non-citizens do anything. It's pretty much for the same reason.

Miencraft wrote:

You're constitution appears to be very similar to the Liberland constitution.

San Andrias wrote:You're constitution appears to be very similar to the Liberland constitution.

Not only have I never seen the Liberland constitution, but I also just slapped a few revisions onto a constitution that Humpy made.

Also, I'm a constitution, apparently.

Miencraft wrote:Not only have I never seen the Liberland constitution, but I also just slapped a few revisions onto a constitution that Humpy made.

Also, I'm a constitution, apparently.

A libertarian's worst nightmare -- to literally be the foundation of a government.

Miencraft, New Jaslandia, Bastians

I have a message, a message that is loud and clear and does not mince words. We have come to take our country back!

I'm new here but may I start with that I strongly believe in personal liberty and will fight whichever tyrant tries to deal or throw it away...

Yours in Liberty, RandPaul42020

Bastians

Miencraft What grammatical errors. Ignoring the ones in the change log.

And yes the trolls did cross my mind. Maybe the best course of action is to revert the language back to citizens in the rights article. But still keep the ratification the way it is? maybe not.

The blocks are for the same reason the Us congress is elected in cycles, to prevent having everyone in and out at the same time, keeping some with experience in. Also it will help keep the region active; By inspiring debate through elections.

Rand Paul 4 2020

Miencraft wrote: This is a game where libertarianism is literally the hardest thing possible

For real, why do they make being Libertarian so difficult in this game?

Miencraft, The Ambassador To The Clfr, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Rand Paul 4 2020

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Miencraft What grammatical errors. Ignoring the ones in the change log.

And yes the trolls did cross my mind. Maybe the best course of action is to revert the language back to citizens in the rights article. But still keep the ratification the way it is? maybe not.

The blocks are for the same reason the Us congress is elected in cycles, to prevent having everyone in and out at the same time, keeping some with experience in. Also it will help keep the region active; By inspiring debate through elections.

Preamble has a sentence that starts with "And" instead of just continuing on with the list as normal.

A2§3 starts a list with a semicolon when it should be a full colon.

A4§3 says "the first blocks" when it should be "block's", and the same for seconds and thirds.

A5§2 would not only be better elsewhere, but would be better worded as "Citizens will be considered active if the account's last activity was 10 days ago, or 15 if the nation is in vacation mode."

A6§1 doesn't need semicolons; it'd be better with just commas. In the same, "and petition of government, for a redress of grievance" should be "and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Also, with a Senate of only three people, there's absolutely no need for blocks. I honestly don't even understand how the blocks would work with so few seats. We can just elect one seat at a time like we always do, and replace all three at once. Odds are the same three people will run repeatedly anyways, so blocks won't do anything.

Bastians wrote:For real, why do they make being Libertarian so difficult in this game?

I know right? Some of the decisions are too black and white, the lesser of two evils is still evil...

The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

Bastians wrote:For real, why do they make being Libertarian so difficult in this game?

Because Barry didn't actually know what he was doing when he wrote the first 50 issues, and that just caused pretty much everyone afterwards to not know what they were doing because they wanted to fit with the 50 issues that already existed.

The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

Bastians wrote:For real, why do they make being Libertarian so difficult in this game?

Because with their small government, leave people alone, you are responsible for your own life decisions philosophy on life, the kind of government Libertarians would bring is absolute Purgatory to the liberals that run and moderate this site.

Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Bastians

Miencraft wrote:Because Barry didn't actually know what he was doing when he wrote the first 50 issues, and that just caused pretty much everyone afterwards to not know what they were doing because they wanted to fit with the 50 issues that already existed.

How do I create/submit my own issue?

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:Because with their small government, leave people alone, you are responsible for your own life decisions philosophy on life, the kind of government Libertarians would bring is absolute Purgatory to the liberals that run and moderate this site.

It is fun to watch my nation jump from Civil Rights Lovefest to Corporate Bordello and back, even though it is technically a nation where the Libertarians are the conservatives and the (American Right Wing Style) Conservatives are the "Progressives"

Bastians wrote:How do I create/submit my own issue?

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=80

Bastians

Miencraft wrote:Preamble has a sentence that starts with "And" instead of just continuing on with the list as normal.

A2§3 starts a list with a semicolon when it should be a full colon.

A4§3 says "the first blocks" when it should be "block's", and the same for seconds and thirds.

A5§2 would not only be better elsewhere, but would be better worded as "Citizens will be considered active if the account's last activity was 10 days ago, or 15 if the nation is in vacation mode."

A6§1 doesn't need semicolons; it'd be better with just commas. In the same, "and petition of government, for a redress of grievance" should be "and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

1. Okay, I changed the preamble to "We, the people of Libertatem, in order to establish a more perfect Region, abolish the prior government; Do ordain and establish this new Constitution of Libertatem."

I did this because the first clause could be read as "We the people of Libertatem abolish the prior government" with the "in order to establish a more perfect region" as an interrupting phrase. Then, of course, to add upon the meaning of "Do ordain and establish this new Constitution of Libertatem." I connect it with a semicolon rather than period. (Should I omit Do?)

2. Good catch on A2§3, I must have missed the shift key.

3. This one is totally on me. Fixed now.

4. Took your suggestion for changing the wording of A5§2. Didn't change the placing. The only other place I think it could fit is under Article IV. Also, because it needed to be defined, I took a gander at what it should be. What do you think of the values? Should they be increased, decreased, or left alone?

5. As for A6§1 I used semicolons to have an internal comma. Though this may not be deemed necessary; I did so to reflect the pattern in which the first amendment, of the US Constitution, is frequently read.

It might be a better idea to word A6§1 As follows "All persons will have irrefutable right to speech, offensive and civil; privacy, of person and property; religion, or lack there of; and petition of government, for a redress of grievance."

Or for the concise:

"All persons will have irrefutable right to speech, privacy, religion, and petition of government for a redress of grievance."

I lean towards the latter, I haven't change the edit yet though.

I removed the reference to expression, as I deem it redundant, the right to free speech is the right of expression. As, according to Cornell Law School, "the right to freedom of speech allows individuals to express themselves without interference or constraint by the government."

6. I change the language of Article six to protect against trolls.

Any other thoughts/critiques from anyone? I know the Election cycle I present might be strange to some but I think it will be a good way to keep Libertatem active.

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.