Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
If I am understanding correctly, CCSM's statement is--God throws those in Hell who may ascent to wanting to be in Heaven (thus violating their free will and infers that God is un/anti-Libertarian).
Condealism's responses are answering with--God is accepts those who want to be in Heaven will have been provided the prerequisites, but those who say they want to be there yet betray their sentiments by not meeting the prerequisites will be turned away).
It seems that in the parables people are provided for (wedding garments are provided free of charge (NT example); those who have no money are invited to purchase anyway at no charge(OT example)). Only those who refuse this provision for their entry are rejected--the person who refuses to put on the wedding garments and is cast out for instance. From a Biblical perspective God does not drag people kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will. A case can be made for them to be compelled into the Kingdom (salvation of their souls) but that is a different topic. It boils down to: If you go to Hell it is because you paddled your own canoe to get there. If you go to Heaven it is by the grace of God in spite not having a canoe to paddle.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Lol, I was just saying that not everyone involved with theatre and film is a liberal.
Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Even better. For making use of land that's rightfully theirs, but the entire rest of the world decides is "disputed" because a country that doesn't exist pretends it owns that land.
Pevvania, The United States Of Patriots
God doesn't drag people into heavan kicking and screaming, but he does drag people into hell kicking and screaming, forcefully, and if that isn't statist I don't know what is.
You're still trying to argue that people who believe in God can't be libertarians because God isn't.
I don't understand this line of thinking.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
The people who are SENT to hell are of course murderers etc (unless they repented after they committed murder).
Others that are sent to hell are those who believed in a different God, those that God doesn't like such as homosexuals and and those who were even unaware of him such as babies, in addition to that are those who don't obey him.
I find it hard to believe a baby would paddle its own canoe into hell.
Can you simultaneously be an anarchic capitalist while also worshipping the devine leader Kim Jong In?
Yes. You can blindly worship anything. Doesn't mean you have to agree with all, or any, of the things the subject of your worship did.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Preach. I dated an Israeli girl over the summer and she told me that all their people want is peace, and give concession after concession without recognition. Israel provides water, education and electricity to Gaza; Gaza responds by putting missile launchers on top of hospitals.
People complain of the lands that Israel 'illegally occupies' that they took in the 60s and 70s. Boo hoo, maybe the Arabs should've thought of that before they tried to drive the Jews into the sea.
Miencraft, Condealism
Post self-deleted by Cyborgs And Sentient Machines.
The 6 day war was started by Israel as a pre-emptive strike.
I'm not sure of the validity of the following claims, so could any people in the US. vett the following for me.
https://youtu.be/7DIinP1TiJ0
Fun fact: Israel is so small that if they wait to retaliate, they're already destroyed. Bombers can fly across the entire country in a matter of minutes.
Post self-deleted by Miencraft.
How can anyone pretend that there's such a thing as a two-state solution when everyone else in the area wants to see Israel wiped off the face of the Earth?
We should show those fools what the brink of extinction is like.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tom+woods+israel&view=detail&mid=C41F58259E232A61C4A2C41F58259E232A61C4A2&FORM=VIRE
Maxime Bernier for Tory opposition! #FeelTheBernier
http://www.maximebernier.com/
Just asking, does the land rightfully belong to Israel because they conquered it during the 6 day war, or because of the old testament, or both?
So... did you smash or what?
My stance is that you cannot give either side full support while retaining a moral high ground.
(It is true that Hamas put rockets near civilian areas as they admitted it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753176/Hamas-DID-use-schools-hospitals-Gaza-Strip-human-shields-launch-rocket-attacks-Israel-admits-says-mistake.html - )
People are also grabbed kicking and screaming to jail. People who broke the law and where than convicted. The whole point of God is that he is able to judge and "sentence" us based on our actions. Because
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
So he is capable of making judgements on humans. As he is a grand arbiter.
Is it the judges fault for the accused actions?
Have you read the Hamas charter?
No
He does not merely judge people for actions alone. God will judge you a thought criminal and send you to hell.
Let's say you lived in N.Korea and you were found to be guilty of not being completely and totally loyal to the dear leader.
When you are tried you are sentenced to torture. Is it the judge's fault that you will be tortured?
The current "undisputed" territory of Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank are all rightfully Israeli because, despite the initial creation of Israel being an unjust seizure of land by an organization that has no right to steal territory from pre-existing countries and use that land to create nations, Israel was attacked by a coalition of Arab forces in 1948. The Arab forces were defeated by Israel, and continually thereafter, thereby securing Israel's claim to its territory as superior to the Arab claims.
The Arabs did not start the 6 day war.
Okay now it seems like you're arguing the complete opposite.
Judges don't just pull random punishments out their collective arse. The laws clearly define what's acceptable as a punishment for a crime.
In terms of God, sinning is a crime punishable by damnation. Sure, God's the one who made that rule, but he'll also judge your entire life to see if your good deeds outweigh the sins.
His supposed son preached tolerance and forgiveness, too, so there's that.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
They started the 1948 war. The 6-Day War is in the 1960s.
Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Not worshipping God is on par with being a murderer to God.
So even if you are a Buddhist monk who cured cancer you are still going to be sent, by God, to hell.
I don't think I even have to get in to the ridiculous things Hod hates, such as shrimp.
Well, this, I'm not going to get into, because from my perspective there is no God and thus no Hell.
That said, if there is, pretty much everyone on the planet is going there anyways because they pissed off someone's god.
Rateria
Regardless of that, hostile actions of neighbouring states don't justify taking land from individuals.
What are you trying to argue now? Did you even read anything that I said? Israel defended the land that they were unjustly given by an organization that had no right to do so; therefore, all territory of Israel, including Gaza and the West Bank, is rightfully Israeli.
I would also argue that anything else they conquered in defensive wars is rightfully Israeli, but they give pretty much everything they conquer back to whoever owned it before, because they're willing to make so many concessions if only everyone else recognizes their right to exist, that they've defended time and time again.
You are slightly misinformed here. Gaza wasn't given to Israel in the '40s, they took it in 1967 - during the 6 day war. Gaza was controlled by Egypt before that.
I have a bit of trouble with your second paragraph as alarm bells are going off. It sounds awful similar to might makes right statist thinking.
And I believe you should read what I said again.
If you haven't heard of this before, Israel does take heavy handed approaches, such as bulldozing the homes of terrorist's family members, a statist action.
The West Bank was controlled by Jordan pre 6 day war.
Fine. It's still Israel. They took it fair and square, that's how war works.
Maybe you fail to understand that if Israel surrenders Gaza and the West Bank, there is no doubt that they will cease to exist. The pre-1967 borders are absolutely indefensible. Gaza and the West Bank are required for Israel to have any chance to survive. They must retain control of them, or all is lost.
Citation needed.
Alright, I'm done with you. Nothing you say makes any amount of sense.
The United States Of Patriots
Here is a citation [nation=short]Miencraft[/nation]
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/israel-demolishes-homes-palestinian-attackers-clashes-escalate&ved=0ahUKEwjG_seo2qzRAhUqAcAKHWfNBDQQFghLMAs&usg=AFQjCNFsKL4k5EkRc34r7bB19J7gECMqdw
They destroyed the homes of the assailants. I don't know where you're pulling them going after the families from.
If you're trying to make the IDF look like the terrorists here, I suggest you take a closer look at what Palestine really stands for.
The United States Of Patriots
"In April 1967, Syria shot at an Israeli tractor ploughing in the demilitarized zone, which escalated to a prewar aerial clash. In May 1967, following misinformation about Israeli intentions provided by the Soviet Union, Egypt expelled UN peacekeepers who had been stationed in the Sinai Peninsula since the Suez conflict,[1] and announced a blockade of Israel's access to the Red Sea (international waters) via the Straits of Tiran, which Israel considered an act of war. Tension escalated, with both sides' armies mobilising. Less than a month later, Israel launched a surprise strike which began the Six-Day War."
Link from wikipedia sourced from:
United Nations General Assembly Special Reportand Add.1/3 Report of the Secretary-General on the withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Force A/6730 and Add.1/3 26 June 1967. Retrieved 2 March 2015.
So Israel launched the war but an active blockade with both armies mobilized as well as the expulsion of UN peacekeepers does't scream. "I'm not looking for war"
Miencraft
That's quite odd, considering Israel waged the most successful war in history from the pre-1967 borders.
Do you expect Palestine to get jets and tanks and Invade Israel or something?
Even small projectiles that terrorists use, such as mortars, are handled by the iron dome.
Yes. Like I mentioned earlier, even with the present borders, a bomber can fly over the entire length of Israel in a matter of minutes. It's not even a question of invasion; just do a bombing run and Israel is reduced to nothing in seconds.
The United States Of Patriots
yeah have you seen the videos of parents teaching their children how to stab Jews?
that doesn't sound like people who just want their land back. That is about pure hate
Miencraft
(I was under the impression Wikipedia was unreliable or something from previous discussions?)
Regardless Israel still started the war.
If you look at my previous posts, you'd see me saying Israel launched a preemptive strike.
If you want to watch videos, there are plenty of footafe both sides in the wrong.
Yeah and military technology hasn't advanced at all in 40 years.
The iron dome is a fantastic piece of military technology but is hardly a permanent solution. especially with Iran's push for nuclear weapons.
Thats why I sited there source. its a quote from wikipedia but is not their information its the UNs
Is a blockade not an act of war?
It is more of a passive action, no bullets, but it still does harm.
You are quite out of touch if you think Palestine will get jets.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-pulled-out-of-deal-for-demilitarized-palestine-shared-jerusalem-in-2011/
Palestinians are willing to have a demilitarised state.
Terrorists have largely been using similar weapons for the past 40 years.
This includes the RPG and the AK, terrorists don't use state of the art weaponry.
Whether or not Israel occupies the West bank has no bearing on the use of nuclear weapons by Iran.
Where did I say I support Palestine [nation=short]miencraft[/nation]?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/amp.ibtimes.co.uk/jerusalem-violence-why-does-israel-bulldoze-homes-terrorists-1522716&ved=0ahUKEwjJmIP54azRAhUHQBoKHfnzA9YQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNFwlu7tX_IA0Fagyxcr5DBgo_O97w
As far as I am aware, Hama doesn't control the West Bank, it is based in Gaza I think.
(Might makes right above)
What the **** universe are you in where the Palestinians are the ones supporting peace?
Gee, I dunno, could it be your delusion that the Palestinians are the peace-loving, just-leave-us-alone ones in this? That they're the victims here? Do you really believe even for a second that Palestine is anything short of a terror organization bent on wiping Israel from the face of the Earth?
The Israelis have been willing to give up everything short of what they need to survive in order to secure peace. What have the Palestinians given up? What are the Palestinians willing to sacrifice?
Israel conquered Sinai. They had every right to keep it forever. They would have become very wealthy if they did. They gave it back in return for peaceful recognition. And then Palestinian apologists murdered Sadat because he had the audacity to recognize Israel as a sovereign state.
Show me the evidence that the Palestinians are the peaceful ones. Show me the evidence that Israel is the one blocking the progress of peace. You can't do it. They're not.
Palestine is the problem here, and the sooner we wipe them out, the sooner peace can return to the region.
Pevvania, The Ambassador To The Clfr
What the hell does this even mean.
If Palestine is so bent on bringing Israel to the brink of extinction, let's make them see for themselves what they're doing. Let's treat them how they treat Israel.
The state's only prerogative is to defend property rights. If the state is denying property rights to a certain ethnicity, then it should be called out. Otherwise there is no collective right based on ethnicity to live in an area. Less rights could have been infringed if the Jews stuck to buying out land in Israel instead of uprooting the people currently living there. And regardless of the illegality of Jewish settlement in the region, the Palestinians have no right to destroy property and person that goes far beyond the scope of aggression that the Jews may have started. Both sides are in the wrong, as far as I can tell.
Rateria, Condealism
An eye for an eye will leave the world blind.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/125/496/b34.jpg
Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
What Israel is doing is perfectly legal.
Also I guarantee the aggression was not started by the Jews.
Israel is the only state in the middle east where women have equal rights to men. As well as having a representative government where Palestinians have a say in the government.
They also don't name streets after terrorists.
Or in their official charter call for religious genocide.
Look Israel is not perfect. at all. but it is the closest thing we have to freedom in the middle east.
and putting Israel and Hamas on the same moral playing field is patently insane.
Pevvania, The Ambassador To The Clfr
Notice also I said legal. Not Right
Yeah, but we've got this military, might as well use it for something useful.
Read my citations please before going on vacuous rants.
I will post this again in case you have a difficulty of some sort.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-pulled-out-of-deal-for-demilitarized-palestine-shared-jerusalem-in-2011/
Yes Israel has excellent domestic policy, but that does not give Israel a pass on foreign policy.
You're right.
It's the fact that their neighbors literally want to destroy them that gives Israel a pass on foreign policy.
Miencraft, The United States Of Patriots
ayy my man bernier
Republic Of Minerva
That's analogous to giving the UK a pass on Bloody Sunday because the IRA wants to destroy them.
If the IRA were a bloc of theocratic dictatorships almost completely surrounding the UK, placing all nations - sans one militarily-powerful outlier - in a diplomatic stranglehold of non-intervention, your analogy would make some sense.
The United States Of Patriots
You are talking about Iran and Saudi Arabia?
There isn't a single country neighboring Israel that doesn't want to see it and all the Jews wiped off the face of the Earth.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
I've updated the tags to more accurately reflect modern Libertatem, as a neutral region that will defend it's allies but not engage in acts of aggression. If you guys want I'll bring back the anti-communist and anti-fascist labels, but my reasoning for removing this is that we aren't apart of the raiding scene anymore, nor ban these ideologies from coming and debating us.
Note that the liberal tag applies to classical liberalism.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Well, does anyone else that tags with "Liberal" actually agree with that? Because if not, it doesn't.
Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
"Liberalism" is a pretty broad label. At least in Europe, it refers exclusively to more libertarian ideologies than the US, so I'd say so if we have an audience outside the US
Condealism
True enough.
Let me clarify, God doesn't drag people into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will-- He does drag them into His Kingdom--a very different topic. Heaven is only a part of the Kingdom of God.
If I have a dog in such a state that it is frothing at the mouth, has attacked the other sheepdogs, scattered the sheep, and is so agitated that it persistently attacks me and I decide to hunt it down to forcefully take it to the vet against its will so as to fix its malady then train it to be at peace with itself (and my person) so much so that it is welcome in my farmhouse, am I the tyrant? No. I am being merciful and gracious. Such is the condition of man whom God draws into his Kingdom (redeemed humanity). Those who do so are now at peace with God to be able to enter Heaven (and by the change in their nature do so most willingly).
If I decide to let that dog be to its own devices and use other sheepdogs instead, am I being a tyrant? No. It is within my purview to do so. Such is the state of man whom God does not draw into his Kingdom (unredeemed humanity). Those who are in such a state will never be at peace with God (never willingly enter His Kingdom) and never consent to be in His presence for all eternity (never willingly enter Heaven). They are given what they want -- total divorce from the nature and attributes of the God whom they loathe--Hell.
God is libertarian such a sense, but He his higher above humanity than a human is above canines so the analogy (like any analogy) breaks down if taken to extremes. He has established an anarcho-capitalist economic natural order in which humans function admirably. However those who defraud and coerce are expected to be thwarted even against their will should they cause harm to others. The only purpose of the state (from a Reformed Biblical Orthodox perspective) is to establish equal justice so man can be free to live in peace with the maximum amount of freedom that that culture (socio-economic structure) can abide.
In another sense God is the owner of everything that has been created and what can be deduced from Scripture (should this be the case,) is that He will allow this space-time continuum to come to an abrupt end. Much like explaining algebra to an amoeba is God explaining His ways to us--only infinitely more so. He has provided a way and means to escape, and some will. Most will not. This does not make God a statist, but a governor and the rightful judge of this cosmos.
The God of the Bible (but not the Quran) is infinitely just and consistently right in His judgment. No one thrown in Hell one will say that they have been given an unjust sentence. No one in heaven will say they are there apart from the grace of God. I cannot imagine in what possible world (in the strict philosophical sense) exercising infinite and ultimate justice could be considered anti-libertarian.
Rateria, Condealism
[Spoiler=quote]
[/spoiler]Instead of fabricating a parable, I will be quoting from the bible.
" Then the king told the attendants, Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. " - Matthew 22:13
This is from the parable of the Wedding Feast. The full context can be seen from Matthew 22:1-14.
This may merely be semantics but in this parable, God uses force to throw you into hell and forcefully has you tied up to make sure you don't escape your torture.
Anyway it seems I'm not going anywhere with here so I think we could just leave this point.
[Spoiler=quote]
[/spoiler]Good analogies don't break down. If your car breaks down continually, even after repairs, you get a new car.
If God owns everything, humanity are all solely the property of God. Slaves. Thus you cannot own yourself as you are already owned by God.
[Spoiler=quote]
[/spoiler]If you think it is "infinitely just" and "right" to sell sex slaves and kidnap and rape girls. That is your prerogative (Luke 16:17; Judges 21; Exodus 21).
A Buddhist monk that cured cancer will go to hell. He did not have the 'correct' religion.
This is the justice of the Abrahamic God. This is of course assuming the Abrahamic God exists for argument's sake of course.
Great article about how Gary Cuckson and Bill 'I'm here to vouch for Hillary Clinton' Weld blew 2016 for the Libertarian Party: http://reason.com/archives/2017/01/07/did-the-libertarian-party-blow
Two former Republican Governors with cross party appeal is a great combination on paper, but in reality what these centrist morons have done is doom the Libertarian Party to further irrelevancy for another 30 years. Johnson was given a historic opportunity to turn the party into a mainstay of American politics, and dropped the soap. These guys are toxic and I really really hope that they never nominate Johnson again. Vince Vaughn would be a better candidate for President than this guy.
Miencraft, Condealism
Please refer to Rothbard's passage on retributive justice. The Israelites were purged from their historic homelands in the first place many centuries ago, so if we go back that far (which in ancap land mixing theory is perfectly legitimate as long as historical records exist on the matter) the land does not belong to the Palestinians anyway.
And even if the Israelis are 'stealing' the land, so what? The Palestinians don't exactly endear themselves to me when they run a dictatorial terrorist-supporting regime that puts missile launchers on hospital roofs and tortures political opponents. And the Palestinian people are even worse, with large majorities supporting Sharia law, murder of gays, suppression of women, extermination of the Jews and just about every other awful thing in the book. Compare this to the only nation in the Middle East with democracy, free market capitalism and rights for women. Seriously, who cares what these savages have to say? If any of that makes me racist then boo freaking hoo. Some cultures are superior to others.
Miencraft, Condealism
On the God thing - pretty much everyone, including libertarians, believes there are some natural hierarchies. God is one of them. You don't have to like there being a heaven and a hell to believe in their existence. Also worth saying that much libertarian and classical liberal thought originates in the Christian enlightenment.
Miencraft, Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Wanna say one more thing. While many have warned that Trump having a Republican Congress doesn't necessarily mean he'll reduce the size of government, consider that Trump is the first Republican President to be elected alongside a Republican Congress that has actually pledged to in some way cut government since 1924. And when I say cut government I mean privatise or dismantle a government program. So because he has the legislative teeth to do it I think its likely he'll carry out his agenda. Remember that no Republican, except for Ronald Reagan, has actually pledged to cut government since Coolidge.
Condealism
If your prediction comes true, I'll be downright ecstatic. I doubt Trump will end up being anything like Coolidge, though.
If I were to be PHYSICALLY REMOVED from my house because my neighbors great grandpappy owned the land 200 years ago but was forced out because of wolves, and I came along and worked the land and built a house, you better be damned right that I would be utilizing my second amendment right to defend my property from this would be trespasser.
Piss off, slaver.
What are you talking about? They were forced out because of ethnic cleansing, aka the use of force, so the Palestinians have no natural claim to the land as per Rothbardian theory. Secondly, the Palestinians were not forced off their land. The Jews were encouraged to immigrate to the area because of two little things called ' the Holocaust' and 'worldwide anti-semitism'. When the British mandate was ended after World War II the Jews more than happily agreed to the borders defined by the UN that outlined Israel, Gaza, a UN-controlled Jerusalem and the West Bank. What do the Arabs, who've been in charge of this conquered land for 1300 years, do? Invade and attempt to 'drive the Jews into the sea', which they try again many more times to no avail.
"Second amendment right"? Since 1989, there have been 171 suicide attacks by Palestinians that have killed 805 people and injured 964. Violently stabbing a thirteen-year-old girl to death in her bedroom is NOT self-defense. Bombing shopping malls is NOT self-defense. Hijacking commercial airliners is NOT self-defense. Using children and hospital patients as human shields to make Israel look but is NOT self-defense. Don't tell me that both sides are just as bad as each other, because that's wrong, and to equate the right to self defense with the massacre of Jewish civilians is an awful, awful, awful thing to say.
Miencraft, Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Not a prediction, but it is an interesting correlation. Trump is no Coolidge, the two have entirely different mindsets and temperaments. All I'm saying is that considering we'll soon have a Republican President and a Congress with an agenda that isn't exactly small government but still bodes well for less government, things are looking up. Still very concerned about the deficit, but the House Freedom Caucus and Rand Paul are already working to get the budget blueprint fixed.
Miencraft, Condealism
I'm voting for Vermin Supreme until he dies.
Only until then?
Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
I'll be running for president by then.
Our Thoroughfare, who art in Libertatem,
Hallowed be Thy Lane;
Thy presidency come,
Thy expressway run,
in urban areas as well as rural.
Give us this day our daily fad,
and forgive us our political arguments,
as we forgive those who argue against us;
and lead us not into totalitarianism,
but deliver us from diesel.
For Thine is the memedom,
the horsepower, and the roadway,
forever and ever.
Mhomen.
Muh Roads
Where were the Hollywood hypocrites and paid protesters when Obama assassinated an American citizen via drone strike, dropped the US press freedom ranking to number 40, sold guns to cartels that got border patrol agents killed, launched wars in 7 different countries, and deported over 1 million illegal immigrants?
Miencraft, The United States Of Patriots
Probably playing flappy bird or color switch. #yolo
Pevvania, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Bernie Sanders is the Supreme Cuck.
Pevvania
Source?
49 minutes ago: Regional Founder Liberosia ceased to exist.
oshi
All good.
I mean we were almost 60 under Bush.
> be President Minerva
> founder ceases to exist
> regional security in jeopardy
> what do
> ...
> obviously leave an RMB message
Miencraft, Republic Of Minerva, Muh Roads, Rateria
I knew you guys had the pw, otherwise ENDORSE ME FOOLS
Rateria, Condealism, The United States Of Patriots
Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
If anybody needs to contact Liberosia, whose real name is Connor, let me know. He hasn't been active on NationStates in a couple of years but we're Facebook friends and talk occasionally.
Rateria
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.