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Region: Libertatem

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Even though Bernie would be the biggest threat to Trump and I despise socialism, I hope that Bernie runs against him just so we have a left-wing populist vs a right-wing populist. Send another middle finger to the elites.

Dream debate: Trump vs Sanders vs Mcafee

The New United States wrote:lolololol

Is that supposed to be impressive? $1.96 in my hometown, dork.

$1.76

The New United States, Rateria

Hey Pevvania hope you enjoy the new texts coming your way.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/california-considers-plan-tax-text-messages-critics-call-regressive-absurd-n947471

Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Call me a statist, but I'm not comfortable with having a bunch of drivers on the road without a license.
I am not comfortable having a bunch of drivers on the road anyhow, but a civil (and free) society recognizes the individual's liberty to exercise their right of way which includes travel by means of conveyance to which one is accustomed. For me is still automobiles, other motor vehicles, my horse, and my feet. The jetpack my generation was promised as kids turned vaporware, but that is another rant.

All a license shows is that someone was crafty enough to jump through a hoop or two at that given time. I am least comfortable with the people on the road who drop their guard however slightly by thinking drivers' licences somehow generally make the roads safer. I am least comfortable with drivers delusionally comfortable when going down the road [period]. Whether or not one drives consistently responsible, generally fit at any given moment or has the know how to handle unforeseen circumstance is beyond the scope of reasonable expectation of licensure. Good governance is people realizing taking responsibility for themselves each and every time they take their and others' lives in their hands when they vector a mass of metal at lethal velocities no matter how safely perceived (which needs no licensing).

Miencraft wrote:It's even because I don't trust the government to determine who should and should not drive that I believe it's very much necessary - I don't trust the people the government allows to drive, why would I trust people on the road who may or may not actually know anything?
Funny how it seems the best people to trust are people who do not trust anybody.

Miencraft, Rateria

If your nation could have a national food what would it be?

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Cocavoa, Skaveria

Fascist Dred wrote:$1.76

*bows*

Hail Dred!

Rateria, Fascist Dred

Fascist Dred wrote:Hey Pevvania hope you enjoy the new texts coming your way.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/california-considers-plan-tax-text-messages-critics-call-regressive-absurd-n947471

More good ideas out of the great state of Commiefornia.

The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred

Skaveria wrote:Even though Bernie would be the biggest threat to Trump and I despise socialism, I hope that Bernie runs against him just so we have a left-wing populist vs a right-wing populist. Send another middle finger to the elites.

Dream debate: Trump vs Sanders vs Mcafee

There's just something that terrifies me about having a self-proclaimed socialist that close to the presidency. I mean realistically it'll probably be good for us to get him or a clown like Warren leading the Democratic ticket, but probability wise that still means you've got a 50/50 chance of a socialist leading the United States of America. And we don't want to laugh anyone off - that kind of thinking is exactly how Trump got elected.

In an ideal world, if a socialist like Sanders became president most of his policies would get blocked by the Supreme Court or never leave Congress. But we live in an age of uncertainty and polarization, so I'd rather not take the chance.

Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria

Suzi Island wrote:If your nation could have a national food what would it be?

Leftists.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Suzi Island, Rateria, Cocavoa, Skaveria

Suzi Island wrote:If your nation could have a national food what would it be?

Don't know about the National Food, but the National Drink would be Snowflake Tears. The largest crop so far harvested was on Tuesday, November 8, 2016, but most of that vintage is sour. The best Tears are Snowflake's Tears of Epiphany when the Snowflake regrets the time wasted by finally understanding that reality conforms to no one; and to truly be happy one must willingly conform to it.

Pevvania, The New United States, Suzi Island, Rateria, New Tampa

Libertatem Corporation?

Rateria

Miencraft wrote:Leftists.

IDK, most of them don't have that much meat on those bones ;)

Miencraft, Pevvania, Rateria, New Tampa

Narland wrote:Don't know about the National Food, but the National Drink would be Snowflake Tears. The largest crop so far harvested was on Tuesday, November 8, 2016, but most of that vintage is sour. The best Tears are Snowflake's Tears of Epiphany when the Snowflake regrets the time wasted by finally understanding that reality conforms to no one; and to truly be happy one must willingly conform to it.

They taste best when their flavor is kept nicely in the latest and greatest leftist tears - hot OR cold tumbler.

https://www.facebook.com/officialbenshapiro/videos/leftist-tears-tumbler/1783365195292637/

Narland, Rateria

Suzi Island wrote:IDK, most of them don't have that much meat on those bones ;)

Bro I must be the king of leftists then

Miencraft, Rateria, Highway Eight, West Smolcasm

when you get the gout

Rateria

Highway Eight wrote:Libertatem Corporation?

Bring back the Board

Pevvania, Highway Eight

Today is the 245th anniversary of the boston tea party

as well as the 74th anniversary of the beginning of the battle of the bulge

the second deadliest battle in american history

1 in 20 american soldiers where killed, wounded, missing, or captured. by the end of the battle. which lasted several weeks

Narland, Rateria

Been playing fallout 76 for a while now and all I can say is that it's fun but not the "fallout fun" we are accustomed to. The fate of the wasteland is not in our hands. Thus, our choices do not effect anyone but our character.

Quests aren't really compelling and are only worth doing to gather supplies and experience. The perk system is also weird in this game and a tad disappointing.

What the game does good is make an experience that is really enjoyable when playing with other people. The unique and sprawling environment provides many interesting areas to explore each chalked full of unique perils that create many memorable experiences that can only be done within a group.

If your playing solo, the game really does a great job making you fight for survival.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, New Tampa

Fascist Dred wrote:Been playing fallout 76 for a while now and all I can say is that it's fun but not the "fallout fun" we are accustomed to. The fate of the wasteland is not in our hands. Thus, our choices do not effect anyone but our character.

Quests aren't really compelling and are only worth doing to gather supplies and experience. The perk system is also weird in this game and a tad disappointing.

What the game does good is make an experience that is really enjoyable when playing with other people. The unique and sprawling environment provides many interesting areas to explore each chalked full of unique perils that create many memorable experiences that can only be done within a group.

If your playing solo, the game really does a great job making you fight for survival.

That seems to be the overall consensus. No way am I spending $40 for that, though.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, New Tampa

Pevvania wrote:That seems to be the overall consensus. No way am I spending $40 for that, though.

Agreed. That and the Narland household are Fallout Purists. The Fallout experience died when Obsidian left. 76 may be a good game but it is a mere pastiche/shadow of what Fallout was, conceptually is, and could have been. A cheap knockoff of Bethesda might be considered a form of flattery. A cheap knockoff of its own self is just sad.

Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Jadentopian Order, New Tampa, West Smolcasm

Narland wrote:Agreed. That and the Narland household are Fallout Purists. The Fallout experience died when Obsidian left. 76 may be a good game but it is a mere pastiche/shadow of what Fallout was, conceptually is, and could have been. A cheap knockoff of Bethesda might be considered a form of flattery. A cheap knockoff of its own self is just sad.

I'm a little late to the game, I started with fallout 3, then New Vegas, then fallout 4, haven't played 76 and I'm not planning to. I play fallout for the choices and the character building, also the story. If they had made a normal fallout game that ALSO had multiplayer that'd be one thing, but it isn't. It's not "fallout with multiplayer" it's "multiplayer fallout" if that makes any sense.

Also, I love the meme of an-caps pointing to fallout to make fun of an-coms while an-coms point to fallout to make fun of an-caps.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, New Tampa, West Smolcasm

Skaveria wrote:I'm a little late to the game, I started with fallout 3, then New Vegas, then fallout 4, haven't played 76 and I'm not planning to. I play fallout for the choices and the character building, also the story. If they had made a normal fallout game that ALSO had multiplayer that'd be one thing, but it isn't. It's not "fallout with multiplayer" it's "multiplayer fallout" if that makes any sense.

Also, I love the meme of an-caps pointing to fallout to make fun of an-coms while an-coms point to fallout to make fun of an-caps.

Fallout was an immersion experience where your actions determined the destiny of the area/region while confronted with a moral dilemmas and its unintended consequences. Who was my character to side with? What direction would it take? What skills and abilities would define the character? Would it become a dead failure, the scourge of the wasteland, an noncommital force with whom to be reckoned, or a sacrificial hero? etc etc.

Bethesda has dumbed it down from being an multipath sandbox honest-to-goodness RPG (Role-Playing Game -- emphasis on the Role-Play) to a to being a linear progression 3rd person shooter, which is fine -- it is their IP. But to consistently insist that each new release is still an RPG is disingenuous at best and very disappointing.

I am old enough that Fallout 2 was the most memorable, and while i did not like the concept of Caesar's Legion, New Vegas is my favorite. I love the graphics and combat in 4 but hated the lack of character development.

Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Jadentopian Order, New Tampa, West Smolcasm

Narland wrote:The Fallout experience died when Obsidian left.

At this point I'm just hoping for two things:

1) That TES6 won't be a 76-level failure.

2) Failing that, that Obsidian's new game will be good.

Because Obsidian does have a new game coming out soon, and it looks promising. If it goes well, it seems like it'll be somewhat of a return to form, if you will; a game with the true spirit of Obsidian-brand Fallout.

Hopefully. It could be a massive flop, too, but let's hope it's not.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, New Tampa

Narland wrote:Bethesda has dumbed it down from being an multipath sandbox honest-to-goodness RPG (Role-Playing Game -- emphasis on the Role-Play) to a to being a linear progression 3rd person shooter, which is fine -- it is their IP. But to consistently insist that each new release is still an RPG is disingenuous at best and very disappointing.

[old man voice]

In my day, you could beat the latest Elder Scrolls game in five minutes by jumping over a mountain and juggling a knife and a hammer around long enough to stab a dude in the face so hard that he stops existing, then stab a heart until it stops existing too.

[/old man voice]

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, New Tampa, West Smolcasm

Miencraft wrote:[old man voice]

In my day, you could beat the latest Elder Scrolls game in five minutes by jumping over a mountain and juggling a knife and a hammer around long enough to stab a dude in the face so hard that he stops existing, then stab a heart until it stops existing too.

[/old man voice]

lol. Gads! When did I become my grandfather? I never could get that jump down pat, btw.

The New United States, Rateria

I enjoyed Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Played Morrowind and Oblivion, but I didn't really enjoy them enough to get into the series.

I've always been more into the Bioware RPGs.

Pevvania, Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm

Narland wrote:lol. Gads! When did I become my grandfather? I never could get that jump down pat, btw.

Pretty much just about getting the angle right.

Plus you have to use a second Icarian Flight scroll before you land or else you die instantly.

Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm

The New United States wrote:I've always been more into the Bioware RPGs.

"We'll bang, okay?"

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order, West Smolcasm

Narland wrote:while i did not like the concept of Caesar's Legion, New Vegas is my favorite.

Same. Caesar's Legion was a missed opportunity; then again, Obsidian only had a little over a year to work on the game.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

I play every Fallout game the exact same way.

1. Make myself

2. Make my physical combat stats god awful to try to be like real life

3. Tell myself I'm going to use charisma and wit to get out of fights

4. Play the game like a shooter anyways and get killed like every 2 minutes

5. Quit and make a gunslinger character so I can still have good charisma

Also I don't care what anyone says, Fallout 4 was fun and the DLC was great.

Pevvania, Narland, Rateria, Fascist Dred

Narland wrote:Fallout was an immersion experience where your actions determined the destiny of the area/region while confronted with a moral dilemmas and its unintended consequences. Who was my character to side with? What direction would it take? What skills and abilities would define the character? Would it become a dead failure, the scourge of the wasteland, an noncommital force with whom to be reckoned, or a sacrificial hero? etc etc.

Bethesda has dumbed it down from being an multipath sandbox honest-to-goodness RPG (Role-Playing Game -- emphasis on the Role-Play) to a to being a linear progression 3rd person shooter, which is fine -- it is their IP. But to consistently insist that each new release is still an RPG is disingenuous at best and very disappointing.

I am old enough that Fallout 2 was the most memorable, and while i did not like the concept of Caesar's Legion, New Vegas is my favorite. I love the graphics and combat in 4 but hated the lack of character development.

Aw hell yeah I loved the first two games

Narland, Rateria

The States Of Balloon wrote:The confederate states were justified in seceding from a government that was attempting to suppress their political power.

Self-determination is good, slavery is not

Pevvania, Narland, Rateria

I always hear right-wing personalities say that the Confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery within a given time frame anyways, but they wanted to do it gradually as to not cripple their economy. I'm not saying that's morally right, but it's certainly more right then planning on not abolishing slavery at all. does anyone know if this is true or not?

Rateria

My mind isnt what it used to be. From what I recall from High School War History (The AP course taught it from British/Oregon Country, Southern v Northern, and Continental European/Mexican perspectives over the school year. Jefferson Davis and his faction did want to end slavery at first over time but at the end very soon. The Confederate Secretary of State and his political machine which was invested in manufacturing and wanted to end slavery over time. There was a Negro General and some Coloured Officers who demanded conscription integration for the coloured troops and having the draft of all the coloured population in general free and slave to hasten abolition. The Cherokee Nation sided with the Confederacy, and the Indians in the Army were split over the issue of abolition. The Congress leaned heavily proto-Communist, was very Miscegenationist (racial classification by blood ranking) and leaned anti-Abolitionist. The high school no longer has the textbooks, but I am sure the info wont be to hard to find.

I cannot vouch for this web site but it might give some bibliography to double-check.

http://southernheritage411.com/truehistory.php?th=052

Narland wrote:The Congress leaned heavily proto-Communist, was very Miscegenationist (racial classification by blood ranking) and leaned anti-Abolitionist.

I think you mean anti-miscegenationist, my lad. Miscegenation isn't racial classification by blood, it's procreation between two people of differing races. It's actually Latin for "mix" + "race".

Skaveria wrote: I always hear right-wing personalities say that the Confederacy had a plan to abolish slavery within a given time frame anyways, but they wanted to do it gradually as to not cripple their economy. I'm not saying that's morally right, but it's certainly more right then planning on not abolishing slavery at all. does anyone know if this is true or not?

We'll never know. Slavery really wasn't an institution to perpetuate from an economic standpoint, especially given the rest of the world's outlook. I think had the CSA succeeded in seceding, then they would have pulled a move similar to what Brazil did in abolishing slavery in the 1880s.

Oh no it looks like someone's stuffing the ballot box with votes for "Weed".

Who could do such a heinous thing?

The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order

Miencraft wrote:Oh no it looks like someone's stuffing the ballot box with votes for "Weed".

Who could do such a heinous thing?

This affront to Democracy must be prosecuted without pity! Call in the Libertatem Secret Police to stop these cucks from voting. Long live our marijuana free anarchist society.

Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria

Post self-deleted by Fascist Dred.

Highway Eight wrote:This affront to Democracy must be prosecuted without pity! Call in the Libertatem Secret Police to stop these cucks from voting. Long live our marijuana free anarchist society.

What we are experiencing is no different than a devastating nature disasters! The troops must be deployed and a state of emergency declared!

The New United States, Rateria, Highway Eight

Types of kids in every US history class:

- The annoying liberal kid who has a few good points here and there but mainly just wants to talk crap on America because its trendy

- The one kid who literally only talks about WW2

- Kid who wears only camo, has 5 cans of dip in his backpack, swears his great x4 grandfather was a confederate general, and tries to convince the class that the South actually had nukes

- Kid that asks the teacher 7-9 questions per class about trains

Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, Rateria, Highway Eight

Jadentopian Order wrote:Types of kids in every US history class:

- The annoying liberal kid who has a few good points here and there but mainly just wants to talk crap on America because its trendy

- The one kid who literally only talks about WW2

- Kid who wears only camo, has 5 cans of dip in his backpack, swears his great x4 grandfather was a confederate general, and tries to convince the class that the South actually had nukes

- Kid that asks the teacher 7-9 questions per class about trains

Unfortunately I was the first kid in high school.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Looks like Jair Bolsonaro and his sons have a very close relationship with and actively support Rumbo Libertad, an explicitly libertarian dissident group in Venezuela (doesn't call them libertarian in the article, but their official website is very open about it). It's good to see Brazilian leaders openly promoting libertarian ideas in South America.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/13/brazil-bolsonaro-maduro-venezuela-dissidents-rightwing

https://rumbolibertad.org

Pevvania, Narland, Republic Of Minerva

Jadentopian Order wrote:Types of kids in every US history class:

- The annoying liberal kid who has a few good points here and there but mainly just wants to talk crap on America because its trendy

- The one kid who literally only talks about WW2

- Kid who wears only camo, has 5 cans of dip in his backpack, swears his great x4 grandfather was a confederate general, and tries to convince the class that the South actually had nukes

- Kid that asks the teacher 7-9 questions per class about trains

This is my university to a T

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

I go to one of the most conservative universities in the country, but I unfortunately ended up in a disproportionately liberal department. It seems like I hear people crap on America and on capitalism almost every day. :/

Pevvania, Narland, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:Types of kids in every US history class:

- The annoying liberal kid who has a few good points here and there but mainly just wants to talk crap on America because its trendy

- The one kid who literally only talks about WW2

- Kid who wears only camo, has 5 cans of dip in his backpack, swears his great x4 grandfather was a confederate general, and tries to convince the class that the South actually had nukes

- Kid that asks the teacher 7-9 questions per class about trains

I didn't know you had a class with David.

Rateria

The New United States wrote:I go to one of the most conservative universities in the country, but I unfortunately ended up in a disproportionately liberal department. It seems like I hear people crap on America and on capitalism almost every day. :/

It ain't as conservative as people make it out to be. I would bet Ricks is more conservative

The New United States, Rateria

I pretty much agree with most of what everyone's said. I've played Fallout 3, NV and 4, along with TES Oblivion and Skyrim. I think I played maybe 80 hours of Skyrim but I'm not really into fantasy so I could never get into it that much (plus the generic dungeon quests were quite repetitive). I think all the Fallout games were fantastic, including 4 as you said Jaden. Yes, they watered down the RPG elements and overhyped the amount of content which was disappointing, but it was the smoothest and best-running game to date with very fine UI, crafting and shooting mechanics.

I'd love to see Obsidian do another Fallout game, but it won't happen sadly. At the very least, Bethesda needs to change the damn engine.

Miencraft, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred

The New United States wrote:I go to one of the most conservative universities in the country, but I unfortunately ended up in a disproportionately liberal department. It seems like I hear people crap on America and on capitalism almost every day. :/

Story of my life bro. I go to the one public school in California considered 'conservative', or at the very least politically diverse, yet being a poli sci/theatre major I'm surrounded by loons. Actually, that's why I don't spend much time with people in my major. I was lucky enough to get put in the ag dorm last year, so I have some pretty cool friends.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Story of my life bro. I go to the one public school in California considered 'conservative', or at the very least politically diverse, yet being a poli sci/theatre major I'm surrounded by loons. Actually, that's why I don't spend much time with people in my major. I was lucky enough to get put in the ag dorm last year, so I have some pretty cool friends.

No matter where you are that seems to be the case. My theater class in high school was very left wing. So far so infact that the other few conservatives/libertarians kept it a secret after they saw that I became a pariah after I ran my mouth in a argument about free speech.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Story of my life bro. I go to the one public school in California considered 'conservative', or at the very least politically diverse, yet being a poli sci/theatre major I'm surrounded by loons. Actually, that's why I don't spend much time with people in my major. I was lucky enough to get put in the ag dorm last year, so I have some pretty cool friends.

I go to a super liberal university, so I have all of that nonsense dialed to 11. It doesn't help that I'm an RA, so I pretty much have to interact with all of the super liberal go-getter, camp counselor-types. Out of the 10 or so senior staff members (hall directors, assistant hall directors), only one is any bit conservative. Out of the 120 or so RAs, only probably 10 or 15 of us are conservatives.

The turning point in my RA job was when one of the hall directors just straight up said something to the effect of, "I don't know how I'm supposed to talk to my white staff members." The person was a white woman, of course.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Skaveria

I go to Hunter. There are at least a dozen different socialist/communist organizations, but no Republican clubs or other organizations.

It's quite suffering (but the academics, so far, are much easier than expected).

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:At the very least, Bethesda needs to change the damn engine.

Too bad they have a fetish for using the Creation Kit to make their games.

Let's ignore the fact that you could presumably make a variant of the CK for whatever new engine ends up being used, and stick to an outmoded MMO engine that apparently can't even work in an MMO instead.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order

The United States Of Patriots wrote:No matter where you are that seems to be the case. My theater class in high school was very left wing. So far so infact that the other few conservatives/libertarians kept it a secret after they saw that I became a pariah after I ran my mouth in a argument about free speech.

Crikey, that's a shame. I've always been pretty mouthy with my views, not in an obnoxious way but if asked I will be honest and most people know I'm an officer in our Republican chapter. Plus I'll usually challenge any liberal BS I hear in class. When the theatre people start going off about Trump or hate speech, I usually just stay quiet because it's not worth it, and I come there to act, not pontificate over politics.

When I started school last year I was so anxious over whether I'd be ostracized, I wouldn't even tell my friends or roommates my real views. Then I realised most people are normal and don't care, and if anyone did care they shouldn't be your friend anyway.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Rotgeheim wrote:I go to a super liberal university, so I have all of that nonsense dialed to 11. It doesn't help that I'm an RA, so I pretty much have to interact with all of the super liberal go-getter, camp counselor-types. Out of the 10 or so senior staff members (hall directors, assistant hall directors), only one is any bit conservative. Out of the 120 or so RAs, only probably 10 or 15 of us are conservatives.

The turning point in my RA job was when one of the hall directors just straight up said something to the effect of, "I don't know how I'm supposed to talk to my white staff members." The person was a white woman, of course.

Yeah I don't know why RAs are a) disproportionately left-leaning and B) trained to follow the leftist narrative. One of my friends (and VP of the Republicans here) is an RA and is subjected to that BS on a daily basis.

It was funny living in the ag dorm last year with all these red blooded conservatives and safe space posters put up on the walls by RAs.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Trump says he is planning to withdraw all US troops from Syria in the wake of ISIS' defeat.

Miencraft, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Trump says he is planning to withdraw all US troops from Syria in the wake of ISIS' defeat.

This is good news. Truth be told we need to evacuate that whole godforsaken region post-haste.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, West Smolcasm

Pevvania wrote:Crikey, that's a shame. I've always been pretty mouthy with my views, not in an obnoxious way but if asked I will be honest and most people know I'm an officer in our Republican chapter. Plus I'll usually challenge any liberal BS I hear in class. When the theatre people start going off about Trump or hate speech, I usually just stay quiet because it's not worth it, and I come there to act, not pontificate over politics.

When I started school last year I was so anxious over whether I'd be ostracized, I wouldn't even tell my friends or roommates my real views. Then I realised most people are normal and don't care, and if anyone did care they shouldn't be your friend anyway.

I had to deal with the same crap in high school theater, fortunately they pushed the narrative to such an extreme that it broke my lefty dogma and I actually reconsidered my views. I started going to community college and all the progressive nonsense isn't as bad there. I'm assuming because it's a community college and isn't infested with rich, hilariously bourgeoisie, college socialists. The big secret in America is that the working class actually doesn't want to be bribed with free stuff to turn on their own morals. I'm not saying there isn't any crazy liberal non-sense, but even the more extreme people aren't as hostile. My poli-sci instructor was a full blown socialist, not even a democratic socialist, a SOCIALIST socialist, and we formed a friendship, and I actually got her to see she was teaching her class extremely biased, now her new students have a running bet on whether she's a democrat or a republican. I also became good friends with a transgender communist, I deplore her politics, as she deplores mine, but we developed a mutual respect and friendship.

Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:[spoiler=SNIP]Crikey, that's a shame. I've always been pretty mouthy with my views, not in an obnoxious way but if asked I will be honest and most people know I'm an officer in our Republican chapter. Plus I'll usually challenge any liberal BS I hear in class. When the theatre people start going off about Trump or hate speech, I usually just stay quiet because it's not worth it, and I come there to act, not pontificate over politics.

When I started school last year I was so anxious over whether I'd be ostracized, I wouldn't even tell my friends or roommates my real views. Then I realised most people are normal and don't care, and if anyone did care they shouldn't be your friend anyway.[/spoiler]

Being a British poli-sci/theatre student, do a lot of people mistakenly assume that you're liberal?

Skaveria wrote:My poli-sci instructor was a full blown socialist, not even a democratic socialist, a SOCIALIST socialist, and we formed a friendship, and I actually got her to see she was teaching her class extremely biased, now her new students have a running bet on whether she's a democrat or a republican. I also became good friends with a transgender communist, I deplore her politics, as she deplores mine, but we developed a mutual respect and friendship.

lol

Similarly, I had a full-blown Trotskyite roommate one semester abroad. Good to be back in God's country. :P

Narland, Rateria

Skaveria wrote:This is good news. Truth be told we need to evacuate that whole godforsaken region post-haste.

Yeah, basically. There's still the very real danger of blowback once we get out, and Wahhabism taking hold in another power vacuum situation, but at this point it's kind of questionable as to whether we're doing more damage by still being there. It really disappointed me when Trump chose to keep troops in Afghanistan, but the truth is that his military advisers are of the same cabal of geniuses that got us into the Middle East in the first place.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Yeah, basically. There's still the very real danger of blowback once we get out, and Wahhabism taking hold in another power vacuum situation, but at this point it's kind of questionable as to whether we're doing more damage by still being there. It really disappointed me when Trump chose to keep troops in Afghanistan, but the truth is that his military advisers are of the same cabal of geniuses that got us into the Middle East in the first place.

To President Trump's credit, his administration has done a lot more than past administrations to negotiate peace in Afghanistan. Pulling out of Afghanistan without a negotiated peace would likely do for the Taliban what our speedy withdrawal from Iraq did for ISIS.

Pevvania, Narland, Rateria

Skaveria wrote:I had to deal with the same crap in high school theater, fortunately they pushed the narrative to such an extreme that it broke my lefty dogma and I actually reconsidered my views. I started going to community college and all the progressive nonsense isn't as bad there. I'm assuming because it's a community college and isn't infested with rich, hilariously bourgeoisie, college socialists. The big secret in America is that the working class actually doesn't want to be bribed with free stuff to turn on their own morals. I'm not saying there isn't any crazy liberal non-sense, but even the more extreme people aren't as hostile. My poli-sci instructor was a full blown socialist, not even a democratic socialist, a SOCIALIST socialist, and we formed a friendship, and I actually got her to see she was teaching her class extremely biased, now her new students have a running bet on whether she's a democrat or a republican. I also became good friends with a transgender communist, I deplore her politics, as she deplores mine, but we developed a mutual respect and friendship.

That's a good story. There are definitely plenty of good leftist/liberal teachers out there. What matters to me is whether they're respectful of opposing views and keep their own biases from interfering with the class.

And yeah, honestly college has made me more conservative, particularly in the social realm. There's just something so grating about the arrogance of people that automatically assume their worldview is right, and will not bother to educate others and just treat everyone else as if they have to believe the same views. I'm not totally closed to modern social liberalism, and if given compelling evidence and arguments I could potentially see myself agreeing with, for example, some feminist talking points (this is not the same with economics, freedom or the role of government; I'm pretty inflexible on my core beliefs). But the complete superciliousness and conceitedness of leftists and feminists - along with their personal hatred of people with slightly different views - not only makes me not even bother to want to hear their opinions, it pushes me further to the right.

Narland, Rateria, The States Of Balloon

Also, in the last week Trump started the Opportunity and Revitalization Council, which will designate opportunity zones that will direct $100 billion of investment into marginalized communities; additionally, the Senate has passed the First Step Act, an important criminal justice reform bill that will give many non-violent and minor offenders a second chance.

But Trump is still racist

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Post self-deleted by Skaveria.

Wanna hear something funny? I attended a "socialist" activist meeting undercover about a year ago, just to see what they think amongst themselves without knowing a political opponent was present.

Number one, they aren't socialists, they're Trotskyists, it was the ISO, I didn't know what that was at the time, but it's a lie to call yourself a socialist when you're a full-blown communist.

Number two, they literally, outright justified stealing, saying that theft was a "capitalist social construct."

Number three, and my personal favorite, they SOLD ME, a socialist newspaper, which I bought while barely containing my laughter. It's now a trophy to their hypocracy.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Skaveria wrote:Wanna hear something funny? I attended a "socialist" activist meeting undercover about a year ago, just to see what they think amongst themselves without knowing a political opponent was present.

Number one, they aren't socialists, they're Trotskyists, it was the ISO, I didn't know what that was at the time, but it's a lie to call yourself a socialist when you're a full-blown communist.

Number two, they literally, outright justified stealing, saying that theft was a "capitalist social construct."

Number three, and my personal favorite, they SOLD ME, a socialist newspaper, which I bought while barely containing my laughter. It's now a trophy to their hypocracy.

Lol, those are always funny. An oil lobbyist friend of mine infiltrated a local progressives' meeting and caught the mayor of my city on camera saying she wanted to abolish the US military because of its impact on the environment. The MAYOR.

Yeah, leftists are not known for their logical consistency.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Lol, those are always funny. An oil lobbyist friend of mine infiltrated a local progressives' meeting and caught the mayor of my city on camera saying she wanted to abolish the US military because of its impact on the environment. The MAYOR.

Yeah, leftists are not known for their logical consistency.

That's some good on the ground work. I'd like to protest or be a part of some activism, but all the protests around my area are left-wing.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

The United States Of Patriots wrote:It ain't as conservative as people make it out to be. I would bet Ricks is more conservative

No doubt about it. Go up to the offices in the Humanities Building and you'd think you were at Berkeley. Progressive propaganda plastered on almost every door. If Ricks had my program, I'd rather be there tbh.

Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

The New United States wrote:Looks like Jair Bolsonaro and his sons have a very close relationship with and actively support Rumbo Libertad, an explicitly libertarian dissident group in Venezuela (doesn't call them libertarian in the article, but their official website is very open about it). It's good to see Brazilian leaders openly promoting libertarian ideas in South America.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/13/brazil-bolsonaro-maduro-venezuela-dissidents-rightwing

https://rumbolibertad.org

Saw this, fantastic news. The 'pink wave' is dead, socialism has undeniably failed in Latin America and freedom is on the rise. Bolsonaro truly is /ourguy/.

Narland, The New United States

The New United States wrote:Being a British poli-sci/theatre student, do a lot of people mistakenly assume that you're liberal?

Yes haha they do, and I find it hilarious. Usually they don't ask openly, more often it's subconscious and they'll just rant expecting my agreement. One of my friends remarked that when he first met me, he thought "this guy is a British actor, he must be a liberal".

What's even funnier is that one of my good friends is an Indian studying internationally, and he's become extremely pro-Trump and conservative, to the point of flirtation with the alt right. He's one of these edgy guys that will say something absurd and ridiculous to see what kind of reaction he gets. Our friend group is pretty mixed politically, but it's funny that the two immigrants are the most right-wing members of the group.

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Yes haha they do, and I find it hilarious. Usually they don't ask openly, more often it's subconscious and they'll just rant expecting my agreement. One of my friends remarked that when he first met me, he thought "this guy is a British actor, he must be a liberal".

What's even funnier is that one of my good friends is an Indian studying internationally, and he's become extremely pro-Trump and conservative, to the point of flirtation with the alt right. He's one of these edgy guys that will say something absurd and ridiculous to see what kind of reaction he gets. Our friend group is pretty mixed politically, but it's funny that the two immigrants are the most right-wing members of the group.

Legal immigrants tend to be pretty conservative in my experience. The Dems just scare them into voting for them by shouting racism at Republicans.

Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:When I started school last year I was so anxious over whether I'd be ostracized, I wouldn't even tell my friends or roommates my real views. Then I realised most people are normal and don't care, and if anyone did care they shouldn't be your friend anyway.

Couldn't have said it myself. Especially at younger ages, most people aren't even politically active besides an opinion on Trump. Some of my closest friends are people I 100% disagree with.

Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:Trump says he is planning to withdraw all US troops from Syria in the wake of ISIS' defeat.

Ugh, can we stop winning already?

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? For some people, it is the economy. For others, it is government waste. For me, it is the right to bear arms. Don’t get me wrong, I still care about the issues mentioned before, it’s just that I’ve done so much research on this one that I grew more knowledgeable and started caring most about this one in particular.

Pevvania, The New United States

Rateria wrote:I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? For some people, it is the economy. For others, it is government waste. For me, it is the right to bear arms. Don’t get me wrong, I still care about the issues mentioned before, it’s just that I’ve done so much research on this one that I grew more knowledgeable and started caring most about this one in particular.

For me it's speech, although bearing arms is tied greatly to that. I'd say that bearing arms is a right to protect the right of speech and freedom of association.

Narland, Rateria

Skaveria wrote:Legal immigrants tend to be pretty conservative in my experience. The Dems just scare them into voting for them by shouting racism at Republicans.

I'd like to think so, but sadly from what I've seen most immigrants end up voting Democrat. Here in California I meet some people, teachers and students, who migrated here and are on the left, and I always want to ask "why are you here?". People come to America because of its boundless wealth and opportunity created by the free market, so I find it so amazing when people come here to live and rag on America, its ideals, capitalism, Trump and so forth.

This is why we need an ideological purity test for immigrants. Like any government program, this is open to abuse, but I see no better way of controlling the inflow of parasitic immigrants. This region has debated immigration before, and whatever side you take on the issue recent studies have shown that noncitizens and illegals take more in government social expenditures (federal + state + local) than citizens in all categories except for housing and cash welfare. I think around 60% of Hispanics believe in a bigger government over a small market (compared to about 58% of whites feeling the opposite way), and this is about 80% for noncitizen Hispanics. It's true that the GOP doesn't do a great job of marketing itself to legal immigrants, a natural constituency of any freedom-loving party, but it's a simple fact that a lot of immigrants hold different values from that of many American citizens.

We do not need parasites coming to our country to exploit it and turn it into something else. I don't care if you're black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Pacific Islander - we should have people coming into our country that stand for individualism and American values, and we should block anyone with bad intentions from entering our beautiful land.

Skaveria wrote:For me it's speech, although bearing arms is tied greatly to that. I'd say that bearing arms is a right to protect the right of speech and freedom of association.

I agree. The 2nd Amendment supporters use this talking point often.

Narland

Rateria wrote:For me, it is the right to bear arms.

Aye.

There are no other rights without it.

Whenever the point of protecting yourself against the government being one of the major reasons you need the right to defend yourself comes up, I always hear the counter-point of "well, what do you need to bear arms against the government for? You could never win a war against the military."

No, we probably couldn't. But then, that's probably what they were thinking in 1775 too. And even if we can't win against the government, that's not really the point, is it? If things are so far gone that bearing arms against the government becomes a necessity, it's at the point where you've either got the choice to live without your freedoms, or die defending them. And those freedoms are far more important than any one life; that is the point. After all, how much do your rights really mean if you would accept a life without them? If you'd accept living in a reality where you cannot fight for it if you need to, then your freedom must not be worth much.

Narland, Rateria, Skaveria, West Smolcasm

Rateria wrote:For me, it is the right to bear arms.

Same. I've had far too many arguments with people over it for this issue to be anything but my primary focus.

A few months ago I was arguing pretty heatedly with someone IRL about school shootings and the right to bear arms, and at one point toward the end they said very aggressively, "How many children have to die before you give up your guns?"

My answer was pretty simple: all of them. My rights shouldn't and won't be curbed just because others abuse theirs.

Miencraft, Narland, Rateria

Rateria wrote:I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? For some people, it is the economy. For others, it is government waste. For me, it is the right to bear arms. Don’t get me wrong, I still care about the issues mentioned before, it’s just that I’ve done so much research on this one that I grew more knowledgeable and started caring most about this one in particular.

da joos

Miencraft, Rateria

Rotgeheim wrote:Same. I've had far too many arguments with people over it for this issue to be anything but my primary focus.

A few months ago I was arguing pretty heatedly with someone IRL about school shootings and the right to bear arms, and at one point toward the end they said very aggressively, "How many children have to die before you give up your guns?"

My answer was pretty simple: all of them. My rights shouldn't and won't be curbed just because others abuse theirs.

I hate that argument, treating 2nd amendment advocates like we're complicit with murder, It's disgusting. I love coming back with, "Why do you want to give the racist police, murderous military, and deranged President all of the weapons?"

Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm

Skaveria wrote:"Why do you want to give the racist police, murderous military, and deranged President all of the weapons?"

Destruction: 100

Skaveria wrote:I hate that argument, treating 2nd amendment advocates like we're complicit with murder, It's disgusting. I love coming back with, "Why do you want to give the racist police, murderous military, and deranged President all of the weapons?"

All memes aside though, I hate that gun control argument too, and I just might use your comeback at some point or another. Thanks for the idea.

Miencraft wrote:Whenever the point of protecting yourself against the government being one of the major reasons you need the right to defend yourself comes up, I always hear the counter-point of "well, what do you need to bear arms against the government for? You could never win a war against the military."

No, we probably couldn't. But then, that's probably what they were thinking in 1775 too.

vietnam.jpg afghanistan.jpg iraq.jpg

Miencraft, Rateria

Rateria wrote:I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? For some people, it is the economy. For others, it is government waste. For me, it is the right to bear arms. Don’t get me wrong, I still care about the issues mentioned before, it’s just that I’ve done so much research on this one that I grew more knowledgeable and started caring most about this one in particular.

Weed.

Rateria

Trump Trump Trump

Pevvania wrote:vietnam.jpg

tfw you, as a bunch of tea-throwing tax-ignoring peasants defeat the most powerful military in the history of the world by hiding in trees, then two hundred years later as the most powerful military in the history of the world get defeated by a bunch of rice farmers hiding in trees.

Pevvania, Rateria

Pevvania wrote:I'd like to think so, but sadly from what I've seen most immigrants end up voting Democrat. Here in California I meet some people, teachers and students, who migrated here and are on the left, and I always want to ask "why are you here?". People come to America because of its boundless wealth and opportunity created by the free market, so I find it so amazing when people come here to live and rag on America, its ideals, capitalism, Trump and so forth.

This is why we need an ideological purity test for immigrants. Like any government program, this is open to abuse, but I see no better way of controlling the inflow of parasitic immigrants. This region has debated immigration before, and whatever side you take on the issue recent studies have shown that noncitizens and illegals take more in government social expenditures (federal + state + local) than citizens in all categories except for housing and cash welfare. I think around 60% of Hispanics believe in a bigger government over a small market (compared to about 58% of whites feeling the opposite way), and this is about 80% for noncitizen Hispanics. It's true that the GOP doesn't do a great job of marketing itself to legal immigrants, a natural constituency of any freedom-loving party, but it's a simple fact that a lot of immigrants hold different values from that of many American citizens.

We do not need parasites coming to our country to exploit it and turn it into something else. I don't care if you're black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Pacific Islander - we should have people coming into our country that stand for individualism and American values, and we should block anyone with bad intentions from entering our beautiful land.

Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?

We can accuse the poor of attempting to exploit a system the rich have successfully exploited for decades until the cows come home - it isn't as though there isn't a strong case to be made for it - but at the end of the day, that's all America's ideological divides really boil down to: siding either with those who have or with those who haven't. Don't get me wrong; both sides do an excellent job of concealing their motives behind buzzwords, propaganda, and hypocrisy, citing such ideals as "freedom" and "equality" in eloquent and grandiose speeches, but all they're really doing is trying to win what they see as a zero-sum game.

Immigrants, citizens, politicians - everyone's playing for keeps. They have to - the American dream over-promises and under-delivers such that only a mere subset of our country's residents can attain it in any meaningful capacity. So let's not pretend this issue is about freedom, individualism, or even exploitation; it's about turning the tide of the game in favor of whoever you feel most deserves to win.

Which brings me to a very good question:

Rateria wrote:I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? For some people, it is the economy. For others, it is government waste. For me, it is the right to bear arms. Don’t get me wrong, I still care about the issues mentioned before, it’s just that I’ve done so much research on this one that I grew more knowledgeable and started caring most about this one in particular.

For me, it's all about finding the civilized world a different game to play.

Taken as a whole, humanity's resources are considerable; if we only knew how to pool them, we could have a vast spacefaring civilization that regards hunger and disease as archaic - maybe not a utopia, but something a lot closer to mastery of our domain than we have now. It's just that we can't have a united humanity without some finagling, and it turns out our best method thus far is also our most counter-intuitive one: most people embrace a form of association that brings individuals together but also drives groups apart. This sort of herd identity is more than just a double-edged sword, however; it is the greatest lie of our time.

Ideological purism is a blight on our society - insultingly, it professes itself as the cure. This widespread notion that any one group of people knows what's best for themselves, let alone everyone else, is a testament to the enduring power of self-deception; we so often permit ourselves to forget that there is a great diversity of human values, none of which are objective, and single out a particular group of them as the key to realizing sustained prosperity. We believe so many things that either aren't true or would cease to be true if we stopped believing - if you want proof of this, just look at the market - but what do we do? We squander the power of that belief as an excuse to fight amongst one another; we disregard its potential for creativity because we're too occupied with using it to justify destruction.

I've heard a lot of talk about freedom here - this region is named Libertatem, after all - but so little talk about freeing ourselves from ideology, a prison of our own making. What good have conservatism, libertarianism, liberalism, fascism, communism, or any other "political belief system" done for us? They're nothing more than abstractions of our most primal instincts passing themselves off as intelligent thought as though such concepts as tradition, individualism, progress, nationalism, or collectivism were intended for anything more than soothing our compulsion to embrace patterns and familiarity. We talk a big game about our respective teams, but the sad reality is that we're so primitive that we have to demonize the other ones in order to muster up the will to get anything done - we create great works to spite others but are completely helpless when there are no others to fight.

The next step in the advancement of human civilization will come with the rejection of our desire to be right and the acceptance that there are aspects of the human condition, even insofar as politics is concerned, that lie just beyond our comprehension. Once we dispel the myth that there's a right answer to the question of what roles the individual, the community, the market, and the state truly play, our options open; once we open our minds to new information in the realm of the social sciences, discovery is possible. I can't say whether it's liberty, equality, or good old-fashioned cooperation that will be the next stepping stone on the path to sustainable mutual prosperity, but I suppose that's the point; the tunnel vision that comes with focusing on a particular value or set of values will be of no assistance in the search for the truth.

It's just a matter of waiting for people to learn that their respective ideologies have failed them, or at the very least are certain to fail them. For that reason, I tentatively align myself with certain ideologies not commonly professed here - not out of any love for liberal or socialistic agendas, but for the practical purpose of allocating resources in a manner that puts future generations in a better position to address this quandary than those of us who are working on it now.

Jadentopian Order

West Smolcasm wrote:Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?

That's actually rather interesting, because I haven't seen a single person advocating for excessive restrictions on legal immigration or removal of legal immigrants from the country (which, by the way, cannot be done if they've become citizens, and if they haven't they'd still have to do something worth deporting them over). I would like to see where you're getting this from.

West Smolcasm wrote:the American dream over-promises and under-delivers

I don't really seem to recall the concept of the American Dream ever promising anything or, indeed, even having anything to deliver. It's literally just an expression of the system we have here. For the most part, if you're good at what you do and you go out and do it, you'll probably end up pretty well. As with literally everything, there are exceptions, but the exceptions don't really render the concept any less valid.

West Smolcasm wrote:This widespread notion that any one group of people knows what's best for themselves, let alone everyone else, is a testament to the enduring power of self-deception

I believe you're conflating the fact that people do indeed know what is best for themselves with the erroneous assumption that anyone could ever know what is best for anyone else.

Those are two very different things.

West Smolcasm wrote:I've heard a lot of talk about freedom here - this region is named Libertatem, after all - but so little talk about freeing ourselves from ideology, a prison of our own making. What good have conservatism, libertarianism, liberalism, fascism, communism, or any other "political belief system" done for us? They're nothing more than abstractions of our most primal instincts passing themselves off as intelligent thought as though such concepts as tradition, individualism, progress, nationalism, or collectivism were intended for anything more than soothing our compulsion to embrace patterns and familiarity. We talk a big game about our respective teams, but the sad reality is that we're so primitive that we have to demonize the other ones in order to muster up the will to get anything done - we create great works to spite others but are completely helpless when there are no others to fight.

The next step in the advancement of human civilization will come with the rejection of our desire to be right and the acceptance that there are aspects of the human condition, even insofar as politics is concerned, that lie just beyond our comprehension. Once we dispel the myth that there's a right answer to the question of what roles the individual, the community, the market, and the state truly play, our options open; once we open our minds to new information in the realm of the social sciences, discovery is possible. I can't say whether it's liberty, equality, or good old-fashioned cooperation that will be the next stepping stone on the path to sustainable mutual prosperity, but I suppose that's the point; the tunnel vision that comes with focusing on a particular value or set of values will be of no assistance in the search for the truth.

It's just a matter of waiting for people to learn that their respective ideologies have failed them, or at the very least are certain to fail them. For that reason, I tentatively align myself with certain ideologies not commonly professed here - not out of any love for liberal or socialistic agendas, but for the practical purpose of allocating resources in a manner that puts future generations in a better position to address this quandary than those of us who are working on it now.

Just would like to comment here that, perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but it sounds extremely nihilistic.

That and I would also argue that the advancement of human civilization has absolutely nothing to do with the sort of unification you seem to be talking about. The greatest and most significant accomplishments of mankind have occurred because of competition between people, nations, and ideologies. Humans by nature cannot accomplish the things you are proposing - those primal instincts you mentioned, they're why we progress most effectively when in direct competition with each other (and, indeed, so does all of nature), so while we should indeed aim to cooperate where possible, the tribal nature of humanity is inescapable and will always lead to groups coming together based on shared opinions, and will always lead to the search for truth within and among those groups.

Whether or not there is an answer that we can know is irrelevant. We'll likely never know the true nature of the universe, but we pursue it anyways because without such a goal, we stagnate. The pursuit of what the "right answer" to any given question is why there even can be progress.

We cannot achieve absolute unification. And that's okay. We don't have to. Just like it's okay for us to not know the answer to something, we don't have to reach the ideal. We absolutely should pursue the ideal anyways, but the way it seems to me that you are proposing we do so is not a viable route.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

West Smolcasm wrote:Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?

Yes, actually, how dare they. As an immigrant who's lived on three continents, I think immigrant leftists in America are even worse than natural born American leftists, because they should know better and know that this country is, I would argue, objectively the greatest and freest nation in the world. Most of the establishment GOP actually favours a path to citizenship, and hasn't even grown a backbone on protecting the border. Coming to America isn't a right, it's a privilige, so I think I have every reason to shake my head at people that come here from terrible countries and vote for the same policies that made that country terrible.

West Smolcasm wrote:We can accuse the poor of attempting to exploit a system the rich have successfully exploited for decades until the cows come home - it isn't as though there isn't a strong case to be made for it - but at the end of the day, that's all America's ideological divides really boil down to: siding either with those who have or with those who haven't. Don't get me wrong; both sides do an excellent job of concealing their motives behind buzzwords, propaganda, and hypocrisy, citing such ideals as "freedom" and "equality" in eloquent and grandiose speeches, but all they're really doing is trying to win what they see as a zero-sum game.

Immigrants, citizens, politicians - everyone's playing for keeps. They have to - the American dream over-promises and under-delivers such that only a mere subset of our country's residents can attain it in any meaningful capacity. So let's not pretend this issue is about freedom, individualism, or even exploitation; it's about turning the tide of the game in favor of whoever you feel most deserves to win.

No, that's not at all the ideological divide. There is only one side that conceptualises American politics as a zero-sum game - the left.* The regressive left, led by Sanders and Warren, absolutely believe the American economy is a fixed pie, with wealth to be distributed and given to favoured groups rather than allowing the pie to grow and benefit all. They openly advocate class warfare, raiding the wealth of the rich and redistributing it. This is not new. The capitalist side, composed of conservatives and libertarians, believes that the free market is the greatest tool in history for human empowerment and the uplifting of all people, poor and rich. Capitalism, indeed, is the only means of eradicating poverty. Observe how the absolute poverty rate has fallen from 40% in 1980 to less than 10% today - a staggering change not seen in any other time in human history, except in the Industrial Revolution.

Why are you so pessimistic about the American Dream? What do we have to compare it to when we're the best? Most of America is in the global one percent of the world's rich. Chances are that if you've been working for a few years and you're in your mid-20s, maybe earning 30k a year, you're comparatively extremely wealthy.

These conditions were not created in a vacuum. They were created by the free market. And the right believes strengthening the free market and removing obstacles to its full potential is the best way to bring more Americans into the middle and upper classes and expand opportunity. We've seen it in history, we've seen it in economics, and we're seeing it now under Trump.

So no, both sides do not believe it's a zero-sum game. For all the talk of 'tax cuts for the rich', because of Trump my tax bill will be zero next year, and I work minimum wage.

*I'll make an exception for the nativist wing of the GOP. Legal immigration and free trade expand the economy and actually result in a bigger economy and higher incomes for native citizens. But for the purpose of this we'll just look at broader ideology.

Miencraft, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

West Smolcasm wrote:Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?

We can accuse the poor of attempting to exploit a system the rich have successfully exploited for decades until the cows come home - it isn't as though there isn't a strong case to be made for it - but at the end of the day, that's all America's ideological divides really boil down to: siding either with those who have or with those who haven't. Don't get me wrong; both sides do an excellent job of concealing their motives behind buzzwords, propaganda, and hypocrisy, citing such ideals as "freedom" and "equality" in eloquent and grandiose speeches, but all they're really doing is trying to win what they see as a zero-sum game.

Immigrants, citizens, politicians - everyone's playing for keeps. They have to - the American dream over-promises and under-delivers such that only a mere subset of our country's residents can attain it in any meaningful capacity. So let's not pretend this issue is about freedom, individualism, or even exploitation; it's about turning the tide of the game in favor of whoever you feel most deserves to win.

Which brings me to a very good question:

For me, it's all about finding the civilized world a different game to play.

Taken as a whole, humanity's resources are considerable; if we only knew how to pool them, we could have a vast spacefaring civilization that regards hunger and disease as archaic - maybe not a utopia, but something a lot closer to mastery of our domain than we have now. It's just that we can't have a united humanity without some finagling, and it turns out our best method thus far is also our most counter-intuitive one: most people embrace a form of association that brings individuals together but also drives groups apart. This sort of herd identity is more than just a double-edged sword, however; it is the greatest lie of our time.

Ideological purism is a blight on our society - insultingly, it professes itself as the cure. This widespread notion that any one group of people knows what's best for themselves, let alone everyone else, is a testament to the enduring power of self-deception; we so often permit ourselves to forget that there is a great diversity of human values, none of which are objective, and single out a particular group of them as the key to realizing sustained prosperity. We believe so many things that either aren't true or would cease to be true if we stopped believing - if you want proof of this, just look at the market - but what do we do? We squander the power of that belief as an excuse to fight amongst one another; we disregard its potential for creativity because we're too occupied with using it to justify destruction.

I've heard a lot of talk about freedom here - this region is named Libertatem, after all - but so little talk about freeing ourselves from ideology, a prison of our own making. What good have conservatism, libertarianism, liberalism, fascism, communism, or any other "political belief system" done for us? They're nothing more than abstractions of our most primal instincts passing themselves off as intelligent thought as though such concepts as tradition, individualism, progress, nationalism, or collectivism were intended for anything more than soothing our compulsion to embrace patterns and familiarity. We talk a big game about our respective teams, but the sad reality is that we're so primitive that we have to demonize the other ones in order to muster up the will to get anything done - we create great works to spite others but are completely helpless when there are no others to fight.

The next step in the advancement of human civilization will come with the rejection of our desire to be right and the acceptance that there are aspects of the human condition, even insofar as politics is concerned, that lie just beyond our comprehension. Once we dispel the myth that there's a right answer to the question of what roles the individual, the community, the market, and the state truly play, our options open; once we open our minds to new information in the realm of the social sciences, discovery is possible. I can't say whether it's liberty, equality, or good old-fashioned cooperation that will be the next stepping stone on the path to sustainable mutual prosperity, but I suppose that's the point; the tunnel vision that comes with focusing on a particular value or set of values will be of no assistance in the search for the truth.

It's just a matter of waiting for people to learn that their respective ideologies have failed them, or at the very least are certain to fail them. For that reason, I tentatively align myself with certain ideologies not commonly professed here - not out of any love for liberal or socialistic agendas, but for the practical purpose of allocating resources in a manner that puts future generations in a better position to address this quandary than those of us who are working on it now.

Have you looked into anarcho-transhumanism? It's a much better thing to be than a socialist and adresses the future in a way I think you'd appreciate.

Narland, Rateria

For the record: I regularly bash extremism, close-mindedness, and ideological bullcrap...

I also tend to regularly spout extremist, close-minded, ideological bullcrap immediately or soon afterwards.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order

Pevvania wrote:Why are you so pessimistic about the American Dream? What do we have to compare it to when we're the best?

West Smolcasm wrote:They have to - the American dream over-promises and under-delivers such that only a mere subset of our country's residents can attain it in any meaningful capacity.

I'm not going to involve myself much in this discussion because I don't have an opinion besides that I like immigration, but I do just want to ask what you'd define as the American dream.

I think typically a lot of people interpret it as the ability to gain wealth and live an easy life. I don't really agree with that, I see it more as the ability to do what you want with your life without being oppressed and with full dignity. It's right in our declaration of independence, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". America was (probably still is), the place to go when you wanted that. Immigrants from across the world fled here to pursue their dreams without fear of persecution.

Pevvania wrote:This is why we need an ideological purity test for immigrants.

I would just like to say though, that I am entirely, 100%, opposed to this. I'm going to ignore all the other reasons for disagreeing because they really don't matter and I don't want to sit here and go back and forth lol, but I really do not trust any government in the world to tell me what ideology is "pure". Beyond that I don't even think a government should be telling people that. We have absolute freedom of expression for a reason. I have enough faith that private citizens are smart enough to dumb ideas.

Anyways, sorry for rambling, it's 2 am and I'm just trying to find reasons to stay up.

Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, Highway Eight, West Smolcasm

Rateria wrote:I just thought about a question that anyone here is free to answer. What is your signature issue? ....

It's a toss up between Speech and the Right to bear arms. I feel like I focus more on speech but I think that is due to the fact that I don't have to deal with really bad gun laws where I am, and that I see that limitations on speech are a more pressing and imminent issue.

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

West Smolcasm wrote:Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?

....

....

"Yeah, how dare people move into the country and not vote for the party that, by and large, would rather see them kicked out?"

I think you are not being fair in your assessment. The GOP doesn't want to kick out legal immigrants. Which you seem to be implying. Especially when you say "By and large" By and large most americans, GOP or not, support a path way to citizenship for those already illegally here. That is hardly the 'deport them all' attitude you seem to portray.

Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

West Smolcasm wrote:

We can accuse the poor of attempting to exploit a system the rich have successfully exploited for decades until the cows come home - it isn't as though there isn't a strong case to be made for it - but at the end of the day, that's all America's ideological divides really boil down to: siding either with those who have or with those who haven't.

Sorry but I 100% disagree, I would like to clarify though. When you say haves and have nots. Are you referring to wealthy vs poor?

If so how is your critique fundamentally different from marx's?

Pevvania, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

I have two final exams today, but I am so done. My desire to study is currently at 0.

Narland, Rateria

The New United States wrote:I have two final exams today, but I am so done. My desire to study is currently at 0.

My midterm exams got cancelled due to snow days

Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Look, I can say from personal experience that the Trump Administration is making it harder for legal immigrants like myself to move here. They're adding pages and rules to H1B's and other visas that are making it more difficult than it already is. I do not agree with this, both out of my own self-interest and also based on principle. However, I would never conflating this with "wanting to kick me out", and I totally respect the right of the American people to regulate who comes into their own country.

I have moved to America because I love the country as it is. If someone like Clinton or an open borders Democrat was in office, yes, it would be probably be easier for me to gain a green card and citizenship than under Trump. But I actually want to have a country left to move to, so it's somewhat of a Catch-22. If we let in hordes of Democratic voters to change America into a statist or socialist nation, it won't be the same country. Unchecked illegal immigration has ruined California, a formerly red state, and I don't want to see it happen to the rest of our great land.

So yeah, I'll take deportations and restrictionism if it protects America's soul. And I think any immigrant that votes Democrat just because of petty short-term interest is being incredibly ignorant, destructive and selfish.

Miencraft, Narland, The New United States, Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:I'm not going to involve myself much in this discussion because I don't have an opinion besides that I like immigration, but I do just want to ask what you'd define as the American dream.

I think typically a lot of people interpret it as the ability to gain wealth and live an easy life. I don't really agree with that, I see it more as the ability to do what you want with your life without being oppressed and with full dignity. It's right in our declaration of independence, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". America was (probably still is), the place to go when you wanted that. Immigrants from across the world fled here to pursue their dreams without fear of persecution.

I agree, the American Dream is about self-determination, but I think his point is about the economic aspect of it: freedom of opportunity to pursue a good job and a good income. And the fact is that bar a couple of exceptions, like maybe Switzerland, America is objectively the best country in the world for this. Both the left and the right agree there are problems and ways to improve it, but it doesn't negate the fact that the poor and middle class do tremendously well.

Jadentopian Order wrote:I would just like to say though, that I am entirely, 100%, opposed to this. I'm going to ignore all the other reasons for disagreeing because they really don't matter and I don't want to sit here and go back and forth lol, but I really do not trust any government in the world to tell me what ideology is "pure". Beyond that I don't even think a government should be telling people that. We have absolute freedom of expression for a reason. I have enough faith that private citizens are smart enough to dumb ideas.

Anyways, sorry for rambling, it's 2 am and I'm just trying to find reasons to stay up.

As I said, it's an idea that's open to abuse, but what alternative do we have? I am also pro-immigration, but frankly I don't want statists, leftists and Islamists coming here. At all, actually. I'm genuinely asking, what is the solution?

Narland

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