Post Archive

Region: Libertatem

History

Pax Osca wrote:Ethical? The government making money off of people with gambling addictions is an ethical source of revenue?

Who said anything about addiction? You say that as though most gamblers are addicted, but that is clearly not the case.

Pax Osca wrote:Not really ascribing to the "taxation is theft" ideas, I really have no problem with a democratically elected government collecting taxes the way pretty much all western style democracies do currently. If you voted them in you should know what they intended to do with your taxes, if you didn't like that party, ya shoulda voted for a different one. Voted for one that didn't get it? Tough. That's how democracy works. NO parties you like? Create your own one to spread your ideas and ideals.

An idealistic way of putting it. The unfortunate reality is that the individual vote is, essentially, worthless. Most politicians aren't about to lower taxes or fix the corruption, and the few that are, are drowned out.

Pax Osca wrote:In an ideal world I would make politicians more accountable for lying during election periods/going back on election promises, though. Corruption and lies, I think, is a bigger problem with the current system than taxes in themselves.

Bully for you. The way I see it, the biggest lie of all is where they say our tax dollars are going.

There's no government quite like no government.

Guys, if voting changed anything, they wouldn't let us do it.

The Lone Star wrote:Guys, if voting changed anything, they wouldn't let us do it.

And voting doesn't change anything. Republicans and Democrats? Different sides of the same coin.

The Lone Star wrote:There's no government quite like no government.

Nope. Anarchy Is the worst type of government. Government is needed to provide and protect basic human rights.

The Time Alliance wrote:Nope. Anarchy Is the worst type of government. Government is needed to provide and protect basic human rights.

Anarchy is the absence of government..

And that is only an assumption, do you think that no man holds morals without someone to enforce them?

Muh Roads wrote:Anarchy is the absence of government..

And that is only an assumption, do you think that no man holds morals without someone to enforce them?

Some honestly do. But in the current world honest people are becoming a minority to thieves, Murderers, Rapists etc.

How would we conduct trade?

What do we do with bad people?

Homes?

Medical stuff?

Defense?

Food?

Besides. Even in an anarchic world. Some people would eventually band together to solve issues. They'd have a leader. Most humans like being led. Without government many would be lost.

The Time Alliance wrote:Some honestly do. But in the current world honest people are becoming a minority to thieves, Murderers, Rapists etc.

How would we conduct trade?

What do we do with bad people?

Homes?

Medical stuff?

Defense?

Food?

Besides. Even in an anarchic world. Some people would eventually band together to solve issues. They'd have a leader. Most humans like being led. Without government many would be lost.

First, I guess i should say i am a minarchist, so i don't wholly disagree. But let me do my best here..

I think the stress of modern life brings about more theives, murders, and rapists. That's obviously very arguable, but just my opinion.

Trade: Same way anyone else does, make contact between two parties.. this one is kind of a no brainer.

Bad people: I would like to think expulsion, or maybe even death in Anarchy. But they do have the Non-aggression principle. This is where my Minarchy mind kicks in.. In my view, this is where the state is needed.

Homes: I don't see how this is a problem? Private industry rules here as it stands.

Defense: People are not going to stand around and just die. There will be militias and gun ownership. But again, i'm a minarchist and i am in favor of a state military.

Food: When has the government ever fed you? Sure you can get some food stamps maybe, but even with food stamps your not guaranteed food in the face of a shortage.

I forgot medical stuff, to which i say.. get the government out of healthcare. Private industry has a much better track record with healthcare.

Muh Roads wrote:First, I guess i should say i am a minarchist, so i don't wholly disagree. But let me do my best here..

I think the stress of modern life brings about more theives, murders, and rapists. That's obviously very arguable, but just my opinion.

Trade: Same way anyone else does, make contact between two parties.. this one is kind of a no brainer.

Bad people: I would like to think expulsion, or maybe even death in Anarchy. But they do have the Non-aggression principle. This is where my Minarchy mind kicks in.. In my view, this is where the state is needed.

Homes: I don't see how this is a problem? Private industry rules here as it stands.

Defense: People are not going to stand around and just die. There will be militias and gun ownership. But again, i'm a minarchist and i am in favor of a state military.

Food: When has the government ever fed you? Sure you can get some food stamps maybe, but even with food stamps your not guaranteed food in the face of a shortage.

Your entire argument is Private Industry's. Where do the Industries get paid? Regulations? Money for small businesses?

Whose to stop un equal pay without government? What about basic services? I'm not wanting to pay the fire department?

What about being paid?

Fair trade?

Guys, statism is not good. There's nothing people can't do or haven't done that can be done through voluntary, non-coercive relationships. There is no justification for using physical violence against another human being. The ends DO NOT justify the means! Damnit, you call yourselves libertarians? Violate people's rights "sometimes" when it's "needed"? NO!!!

The Lone Star wrote:Guys, statism is not good. There's nothing people can't do or haven't done that can be done through voluntary, non-coercive relationships. There is no justification for using physical violence against another human being. The ends DO NOT justify the means! Damnit, you call yourselves libertarians? Violate people's rights "sometimes" when it's "needed"? NO!!!

I'm not a libertarian. I'm a Left - Leaning Centrist with a strong belief in TRUE Marxism. Government intervention is needed economically on many levels. Socially not as much but still some.

I think its overly pessimistic to say that voting doesn't change anything. Sometimes we get reactionaries and populists, but other times we get revolutionaries like Margaret Thatcher intent on smashing the status quo.

The Time Alliance wrote:Your entire argument is Private Industry's. Where do the Industries get paid? Regulations? Money for small businesses?

Whose to stop un equal pay without government? What about basic services? I'm not wanting to pay the fire department?

What about being paid?

Fair trade?

Actually no, it's not. Homes and medical is the only place i stated anything about private industry.

Industries can be paid the same way they have been paid for years. With a precious metal backed currency.

Regulations have a way of sorting themselves out.. Business cheats individual, business loses customers.

Small business doesn't need any money from the government... it's a business.

You are! If the job has unfair wages, then don't take the job. There is a true market for employees.

Basic services are again another thing that most people already get from a private company..

You DO pay the fire department.. ever hear of "taxes"?

The Lone Star wrote:Guys, statism is not good. There's nothing people can't do or haven't done that can be done through voluntary, non-coercive relationships. There is no justification for using physical violence against another human being. The ends DO NOT justify the means! Damnit, you call yourselves libertarians? Violate people's rights "sometimes" when it's "needed"? NO!!!

No there is no justification for physical violence, but that has done literally nothing to stop it from happening.. from the beginning of time. In a perfect world everyone could simply get along and enjoy a stateless free land. But i don't exactly see how that is possible. Which is why i am in favor of reducing government down to the lowest possible form. Withholding contracts and defense.

Muh Roads wrote:Actually no, it's not. Homes and medical is the only place i stated anything about private industry.

Industries can be paid the same way they have been paid for years. With a precious metal backed currency.

Regulations have a way of sorting themselves out.. Business cheats individual, business loses customers.

Small business doesn't need any money from the government... it's a business.

You are! If the job has unfair wages, then don't take the job. There is a true market for employees.

Basic services are again another thing that most people already get from a private company..

You DO pay the fire department.. ever hear of "taxes"?

1. Metal backed currency? You expect a country with NO government to do this?

2. Small Businesses do need money to get started.

3. Look. I see the problem. You have too much faith in the fellow man to actually sit down and think of what people would do in a world where the government doesn't exist.

The Time Alliance wrote:1. Metal backed currency? You expect a country with NO government to do this?

2. Small Businesses do need money to get started.

3. Look. I see the problem. You have too much faith in the fellow man to actually sit down and think of what people would do in a world where the government doesn't exist.

1.Doesn't have to be metal. Trade is trade, anything people value could be used.. but want to see some initiative see "suns of liberty mint".

2.Sure they do, just not tax payer money.

3.The government is people.

Muh Roads wrote:1.Doesn't have to be metal. Trade is trade, anything people value could be used.. but want to see some initiative see "suns of liberty mint".

2.Sure they do, just not tax payer money.

3.The government is people.

Yes, but the government has laws set upon itself. Tell me the chances of an Anarchic state surviving? I'll tell you.

Eventually some people are going band together in a tribe. They'll make some laws eventually attracting more and more people. Bam. Anarchy over. Anarchy is total lack of government, Which means no laws. Thus even having a universal set of unwritten laws that's technically government.

Pevvania wrote:Hey guys, who's your favourite comedian? Mine has gotta be Paul Krugman. He just says the darndest things.

Definetly Louis CK or Jim Gaffigan.

Ronald Reagan And Rick Grimes wrote:Definetly Louis CK or Jim Gaffigan.

Oh yeah. Jim Gaffigan.

The Time Alliance wrote:1. Metal backed currency? You expect a country with NO government to do this?

2. Small Businesses do need money to get started.

3. Look. I see the problem. You have too much faith in the fellow man to actually sit down and think of what people would do in a world where the government doesn't exist.

1. Competing currencies would be issued by different banks and private institutions, as much as it's happened in the past and continues to happen today, to an extent. Granting the Federal Reserve monopoly rights has been perhaps the most unwise fiscal decision ever made by the United States, even more so than the introduction of the income tax and the creation of Social Security. At the root of nearly every recession of the past century lies the Fed, with its artificial stimulation of asset prices to the benefit of the rich, misallocation of resources and artificial lowering of interest rates. It benefits the corporations and the politicians, nobody else. That unconstitutional corporate mess needs desperately to be abolished, before it maximises the effects of the next inevitable recession.

2. The capital that small businesses use to start up is loaned to them by banks. Very little of it comes from the government.

3. Man's moral fallibility extends to all individuals. Government seems to attract the very worst.

The Time Alliance wrote:Yes, but the government has laws set upon itself. Tell me the chances of an Anarchic state surviving? I'll tell you.

Eventually some people are going band together in a tribe. They'll make some laws eventually attracting more and more people. Bam. Anarchy over. Anarchy is total lack of government, Which means no laws. Thus even having a universal set of unwritten laws that's technically government.

Which is one of the reasons i consider myself a minarchist. I [B]want[/B] Anarchy but do not find it plausible. I know there are a lot of voluntaryists out there who disagree with me, but that's ok.

Muh Roads wrote:

You are! If the job has unfair wages, then don't take the job. There is a true market for employees.

Easy to say when you're employed and don't have hungry kids to feed.

When you're having to work two jobs that pay a dollar an hour for a total of 16-18 hours of work per day (along with your partner who is doing the same) you might think differently. With your grand total of 30ish dollars between you, you can scrounge up at least a couple of meals per day for your kids, but forget housing, clothing or any of the other basic necessities of life.

Fact is, there aren't always nice jobs to do or businesses who will pay you enough to do them. Without regulation any smart business will abuse those who need jobs the most whenever and wherever they can to get a competitive advantage over other businesses, because they know that someone will be in a miserable enough position to take the job if they offer it. It's survival of the most cruel, cut throat and abusive in the business world.

Yes, in most cases the above example will not be anywhere near as extreme, but it has happened in the past and with zero regulation it can happen in the future. I take for an example, the abuse of freed slaves-turned tenant farmers during the Reconstruction phase of America (post the American Civil War). Rich plantation owners, able to their powers over the newly freed slaves (the vast majority of which had zero education and no experience in anything other than cotton picking), trapped these ex-slaves in cycles of debt by making them pay for housing/food with the wages they gained from picking cotton. The catch? The plantation owner owned both the housing and the cotton, so he can set the housing prices high enough to ensure the ex-slaves were eternally in his debt.

Now, imagine a large company with large quantities of capital decides to do virtually the same thing. What's to stop them effectively trapping large quantities of labour in an eternal cycle of debt by forcing them (through their employment contracts) to live in company housing and buy foods solely from company outlets? "Choice and reason on the part of the labour force!" I hear you say. Yet, if the only choice of much of that labour force is to pick that job (and end up in what is, effectively, slavery for the rest of their lives) or watch their family starve, most people would pick the job.

Unregulated markets are hell for those without capital or options.

Muh Roads wrote:

Food: When has the government ever fed you? Sure you can get some food stamps maybe, but even with food stamps your not guaranteed food in the face of a shortage.

Correct me if I'm shockingly wrong, but I do believe that governments play a huge part in importing food (and other) basic stocks into most nations. Governments stockpile things like grain, oil and gas for emergencies, and co-ordinate the distribution of these goods in times of extreme shortage.

While it is, admittedly, possible to envisage a private company doing the same thing, it would have to rely on a large number of people being willing to pay for insurance against something that might only happen once a generation. The market, (and this is pure speculation, given) for such insurance would be tiny, and likely to be dominated by a single large company, or else populated by many smaller companies that operate on 'local monopolies' - as splitting a tiny consumer base between two companies would mean that neither company would be sufficiently large to operate effectively, forcing the other out.

Anyway, after that mass of moderately constructed statements with few facts to back them up, I have to go :P

Will reply to your post tomorrow, Pax.

Election Results

A poor voter turnout this election, due to lack of awareness. I tallied 4 active voters. This is the Second Board, starting tomorrow:

Seat One: Muh Roads

Seat Two: Humpheria

Seat Three: Ronald Reagan and Rick Grimes

Seat Four: Miencraft

Seat Five: Alchandria

Pevvania wrote:Will reply to your post tomorrow, Pax.

Election Results

A poor voter turnout this election, due to lack of awareness. I tallied 4 active voters. This is the Second Board, starting tomorrow:

Seat One: Muh Roads

Seat Two: Humpheria

Seat Three: Ronald Reagan and Rick Grimes

Seat Four: Miencraft

Seat Five: Alchandria

Congrats....Only other person running.

Must be a NationStates-wide thing; hardly anyone voted on the most recent IRU legislation.

Post self-deleted by Miencraft.

The distinct lack of change is a bit disheartening.

Miencraft wrote:The distinct lack of change is a bit disheartening.

Obama, is that you?

Miencraft wrote:The distinct lack of change is a bit disheartening.

Yep.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Obama, is that you?

Liberals aren't the only ones who like change...

Change

Nothing stays the same

Unchained

Yeah you hit the ground running

Congratulations to the Time Alliance for a well-run campaign. Congratulations to Alchandria, the new Board Member. And thanks to the four voters, let's work for a better Libertatem.

Humpheria wrote:Congratulations to the Time Alliance for a well-run campaign. Congratulations to Alchandria, the new Board Member. And thanks to the four voters, let's work for a better Libertatem.

Congrats to the winners.

Post self-deleted by Einsiev.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Obama, is that you?

Nope, I'm just Amabo.

The RLP and Minority caucuses are currently meeting to elect Majority and Minority leaders. The results of the Board Chairman should be available in the next 24 hrs. Keeping the public updated on government doings, hurray for transparency!

Einsievian elections are coming up! Here are the candidates!

Helmuth Guddenstadt Premier of Lower Luzpeg - Conservative

Weiman Kelling Premier of Freisgort - Libertarian

Rotizlav Bregman Worker from Lepzan - Socialist

Dimitri Koshkonov Premier of Zunkland - Minarchist

Kaiser Oleff Hammensburg for a second term - Comservative

Einsiev wrote:Einsievian elections are coming up! Here are the candidates!

Helmuth Guddenstadt Premier of Lower Luzpeg - Conservative

Weiman Kelling Premier of Freisgort - Libertarian

Rotizlav Bregman Worker from Lepzan - Socialist

Dimitri Koshkonov Premier of Zunkland - Minarchist

Kaiser Oleff Hammensburg for a second term - Comservative

Can we see their platforms?

Einsiev wrote:Pardon?

Their beliefs and what they will do for thr country.

Helmuth Guddenstadt - Plans to increase funding for industry, defense, education, healthcare and reform the welfare system

Weiman Kelling - Plans to legalize same sex marriage, Marijuana for recreational purposes and decrease funding for welfare and defense

Rotizlav Bregman - Plans to create an entirely new form of government and will strip away the freedom of speech and right to weaponry

Dimitri Koshkonov - Plans to decrease funding for safety and increase funding for welfare

Kaiser Oleff Hammensburg - Plans to keep the current welfare system and increase funding for safety and set up a healthcare system for the poor

Whoever gets the second most amount of votes will be named Grand Premier or Vice President.

Einsiev wrote:Helmuth Guddenstadt - Plans to increase funding for industry, defense, education, healthcare and reform the welfare system

Weiman Kelling - Plans to legalize same sex marriage, Marijuana for recreational purposes and decrease funding for welfare and defense

Rotizlav Bregman - Plans to create an entirely new form of government and will strip away the freedom of speech and right to weaponry

Dimitri Koshkonov - Plans to decrease funding for safety and increase funding for welfare

Kaiser Oleff Hammensburg - Plans to keep the current welfare system and increase funding for safety and set up a healthcare system for the poor

I just read something socialists don't do...but whatever. It really seems everyone has been set up to be terrible except the 2 conservatives.

Anyways. I support Kaiser Oleff

The Time Alliance wrote:I just read something socialists don't do...but whatever. It really seems everyone has been set up to be terrible except the 2 conservatives.

Anyways. I support Kaiser Oleff

I'm kind of a noob with that. Sorry.

Einsiev wrote:I'm kind of a noob with that. Sorry.

It's okay. You just have to give each Candidate Perks and Flaws.

Yeah, thanks. I really need to practice haha!

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Look what the commies have done:

Antico

So...It was a worthless region....Trash clean up basically.

The Time Alliance wrote:So...It was a worthless region....Trash clean up basically.

Worthless!? That was a great remnant of Libertatems history! How dare you >:(

But on the bright side, I have liberated another commie held region:

Aryana

The Time Alliance wrote:So...It was a worthless region....Trash clean up basically.

It has what 5 nations? It was inactive. No Point in that region existing. Raiders like that deserve credit.

The Time Alliance wrote:It has what 5 nations? It was inactive. No Point in that region existing. Raiders like that deserve credit.

Are you saying you support commies who defile and swipe our regions?!

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Are you saying you support commies who defile and swipe our regions?!

Do I support Commies?

-Depends on their type of Communism

Do I support Raiders taking out worthless inactive tiny regions no matter who they belong to or what they stand for?

-Yes.

If they are inactive regions, then yes. I don't really have a problem with it either.

Post self-deleted by T-34 War Machine.

Correction to the last post. Some of the names were very much out of order.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=5217683

The bold spot indicates the exact spot at which Lib admits that this region was built on lies and allying with racists to achieve a cause that hasn't been accomplished since 2003. Enjoy living under your "new direction", which'll inevitably change once you all realize that the Neckbeard alliance has no real military skill.

If you're ever up for a chat or if Lib wants to cry at my place, Antisoc's password is leftsolidarity. Write that down before one of the executive powers suppresses this message.

Greetings from Nationstates's greatest Communist region, Antisoc.

-[nation=short]Bundabunda[/nation], Commander of the Regional Defense Committee, est. 2011.

Post self-deleted by The Time Alliance.

Okay. Nice post. I saved it. And the only Direction we should be going is Forward. Not backwards.

By all means, have a go at it.

Some rational, post-Keynseian economics might actually help out the "let people do whatever they want" attitude of this region which has historically had to be regulated owing to child labor.

The Time Alliance wrote:Okay. Nice post. I saved it. And the only Direction we should be going is Forward. Not backwards.

You're not going in any direction. Libertatem is a dog chasing its own tail. Anyways, this region has too much yellow and red and purple (or is that blue, I'm colorblind). Come see me at Antico if you're looking for debate.

T-34 War Machine wrote:Correction to the last post. Some of the names were very much out of order.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=5217683

The bold spot indicates the exact spot at which Lib admits that this region was built on lies and allying with racists to achieve a cause that hasn't been accomplished since 2003. Enjoy living under your "new direction", which'll inevitably change once you all realize that the Neckbeard alliance has no real military skill.

If you're ever up for a chat or if Lib wants to cry at my place, Antisoc's password is leftsolidarity. Write that down before one of the executive powers suppresses this message.

Greetings from Nationstates's greatest Communist region, Antisoc.

-[nation=short]Bundabunda[/nation], Commander of the Regional Defense Committee, est. 2011.

I kindly ask you to go be a lying troll somewhere else.

Thanks.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:I kindly ask you to go be a lying troll somewhere else.

Thanks.

Do you have proof he is lying?

The Time Alliance wrote:Do you have proof he is lying?

Got any proof that this is not pure lies?

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Got any proof that this is not pure lies?

Look. If I see something I become skeptical about it.....skeptical of both sides. I have saved it and I am going to research that to see if I can actually figure anything out. Until then I rest.

-Good night.

Darn, they took Antico. I wouldn't worry about it guys, we've made some massive gains in the last few months and this pales in comparison to our taking of New Fasces, Grenada and other regions.

Maybe I'll come debate some time, as long as it's all civil.

The RLP has lost its supermajority in the Board, with Objectivist leader [nation=short]Alchandria[/nation] replacing retiring Reaganite [nation=short]The Liberty Front[/nation]. However, the ACP as has also lost a seat, as [nation=short]Miencraft[/nation] has switched parties, now caucusing with the Anti-Corporatist Party.

I have my sights set on liberating a few former libertarian or capitalist regions taken over. If you want more information and join, please telegram me. I am working independently mostly.

Can we forget the caucus thing and all have a kegger or?

ATTENTION! The voting has ended!

Kaiser Oleff has been elected for a second term!!

Alchandria wrote:Can we forget the caucus thing and all have a kegger or?

Welcome to regional politics, you ran for it.

Ok guys, who wants to do an RP?

Einsiev wrote:Ok guys, who wants to do an RP?

What kind?

Einsiev wrote:Fallout.

Maybe. But one question. Is it another of those Fallout:Equestria ones? I mean don't get me wrong. I have Role-Played on one of them before, but a normal Fallout RP would be nice.

No it's a regular Fallout. How about on the RMB or elsewhere?

That makes soo much sense. Haha

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Another region liberated from Marxist Tyranny:

New Communist Region

But, it was created six minutes ago. What?

Humpheria wrote:But, it was created six minutes ago. What?

I refounded it.

Nice. That should be a crippling blow to CSSR's pride.

The Neo-Confederate States Of America wrote:Another region liberated from Marxist Tyranny:

New Communist Region

.......bit Marxism isn't tyranny. Stalinism yes. Marxism no.

But anyway, the RP?

It's just me, Einsiev. Don't panic.

A Fallout RP sounds pretty good. I've done a few in my time.

Welcome back Justin Empire, and welcome to all new arrivals! :) This short 'population recession' seems to be ending. I reckon we'll be back to 100 nations by the end of the month!

The Time Alliance wrote:.......bit Marxism isn't tyranny. Stalinism yes. Marxism no.

Communism.

The Time Alliance wrote:.......bit Marxism isn't tyranny. Stalinism yes. Marxism no.

In theory. But as I've explained before, all forms of socialism lead to totalitarianism. Read The Road to Serfdom to see what I mean.

I'm glad to be back :)

War. War never changes. Except when it does.

Humpheria wrote:Communism.

To broad of a term.

Pevvania wrote:In theory. But as I've explained before, all forms of socialism lead to totalitarianism. Read The Road to Serfdom to see what I mean.

No. All forms of socialism do not. Socialism is a theory of perfect Economic Equality. In its most basic form of Marxism it is one of the only two PURE forms of political thinking. The other being direct democracy.

Again, do you know who you are talking to? Just drop it, your not going to change anyone's mind.

Pevvania wrote:A Fallout RP sounds pretty good. I've done a few in my time.

Welcome back Justin Empire, and welcome to all new arrivals! :) This short 'population recession' seems to be ending. I reckon we'll be back to 100 nations by the end of the month!

Well, let's set it up!

The Time Alliance wrote:No. All forms of socialism do not. Socialism is a theory of perfect Economic Equality. In its most basic form of Marxism it is one of the only two PURE forms of political thinking. The other being direct democracy.

I'm not talking theory. In theory anything can be anything. There could be an economic system that gives everyone free ice cream all the time without needing anyone to make the ice cream. In theory. But practically, pure socialism is impossible, as rational economic calculation can only exist under a price system. Planning can definitely occur, but only under totalitarian conditions.

Humpheria wrote:Again, do you know who you are talking to? Just drop it, your not going to change anyone's mind.

Let's be respectful, Humpheria. It doesn't matter if he won't change our minds, a good exchange of ideas is always healthy.

Sorry, sorry, got carried away.

I'll be back guys.

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.