Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
Rothbard himself recognized that industrial pollution violates the NAP and must therefore be banned. But Rothbard did not draw the full implications of his principle. Not just industrial pollution, but personal pollution produced by driving, burning wood in ones fireplace, smoking, and so forth, violates the NAP. The NAP implies that all of these activities must be banned, no matter how beneficial they may be, and no matter how essential they are to daily life in the modern world
At no point does that explain why.
Unless you've got a definition of pollution that classifies it as the initiation of force, it doesn't count as violence.
The United States Of Patriots
https://www.libertarianism.org/blog/libertarianism-pollution
That article goes on to explain that if you take a ban on aggression to be absolute, then a ban on pollution should also include a ban on such things as shining light on your property.
And, more importantly, that it would also require you to essentially destroy all modern industry. And that'd be disastrous.
I know but the NAP comes first right?
Pollution can apply to light, noise, chemicals etc. Although technically violating the NAP, it should be noted further that Rothbard would leave the enforcement of the NAP to private systems. Pollution with a disruptive or harmful effect is a most clear case as when retribution would occur. It's how such externalities are solved in a free market.
Miencraft, Rateria, Fascist Dred
Yes, but in the case of industrial pollution, it's incredibly hard to classify that as violence against anyone.
Blowing smoke in someone's face, an example used in the article, would involve a guy physically going up to another guy and actually blowing smoke into his face. That's different than industrial pollution, which just lets off a bunch of chemicals into the air.
Industrial pollution would be comparable to genocide in terms of NAP violations. And, personally, I don't really count secondary effects as being an NAP violation. The primary thing happening is some smoke is going out into the air. Directly, that doesn't really do anything or harm anyone. Where it goes and what it does after that is what causes the ham, but you can't blame anyone for wind.
Fascist Dred
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Not everyone can 'defend' themselves, not children for example. And to enforce the NAP in this case would be to close down that factory with force
I don't care if it's intentional or not, and it's not just 'some smoke'. The reason why more people aren't libertarians is because they hear people like you saying such incredibly stupid things
But, then, if secondary and tertiary consequences of an action where the primary consequence is harmless can count as NAP violations, any action at all can count as an NAP violation.
Industrial pollution, directly, doesn't do anything. Smoking a cigarette, directly, doesn't do anything to anyone other than yourself - of course, actually trying to get your smoke to end up in other people's lungs is also a violation but at that point what you're doing is literally blowing smoke into people's faces. Driving a car, directly, doesn't do anything, unless you hit someone with it. But if you hit someone with a car, the action that violated the NAP is not your driving a car, it's your hitting someone with a car.
Similarly, the action that violates the NAP in regards to industrial pollution is not the direct action. Your industry doesn't directly do anything to initiate force unless it uses slave labor or some such. The only reason industrial pollution does anything at all is because of factors that only enter into play after the factory has done what it's doing - and the planet itself can't violate the NAP.
Fascist Dred
It's not secondary effects idiot. The factory manufactures something, creates pollution, I need to breath the air, and damage my health
Truly the best way to win an argument is to resort to insults.
Here's a tip. If you want to be taken seriously, argue with facts.
Your health is really only damaged if you're in very close proximity to the factory. And generally industrial areas are pretty damn far away from residential ones.
Anything happening beyond a little radius around the factory itself can't be blamed directly on it, or any other factory.
And even in that little radius, the question becomes a question of whether or not pollution even counts as an initiation of force to begin with. Is it considered an initiation of force because it has negative effects? Or is it considered an initiation of force because you don't have the option of whether or not to breathe polluted air if you're in the area? If it's the latter, do car exhausts violate the NAP? Do pesticides violate the NAP?
Fascist Dred
Here's a tip. If you want to be taken seriously, don't say that pollution is just 'some smoke'. And it doesn't matter how close factories are to residential zones, that has nothing to do with it. And yes, I can blame factories for the bad air around me, because it wouldn't be bad if it weren't for them!
There are far more factors that contribute to air quality than just factories.
Like I said, do you count car exhausts as a violation of the NAP?
Fascist Dred
Any mass pollution based violation would most likely be dealt with as a class action lawsuit and children who don't own much property besides themselves to be violated would either be protected by a class action lawsuit or they themselves (since apparently you imply no one can act in their defense) would move away from where pollution is affecting an area. To enforce the NAP would most likely mean the factory would have to make payments to those affected by its pollution. In turn this would make companies have to find ways to produce and keep pollutants down or maybe even find to stop pollutants.
Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, Fascist Dred
Post self-deleted by Narland.
Re: Air pollution and NAP.
NAP is the underlying ethical consideration (principle) for jurisprudence, not a replacement of it. Violence (violation) against life, liberty, and property are still adjudicated by proximity and degree in accord to the hierarchy of preservation of life ranking higher than liberty ranking higher than property; with imminent and intractable down to unlikely and transient part of the equation.
With our current abilities it is feasible to expect no harm to be expelled into the atmosphere from my neighbor such that that composition would not be found in the air readily breathed by nature. The problem comes with arbitrarily defining things like carbon dioxide (a natural component of the atmosphere as a pollutant.) It is not unreasonable to consider unnatural components tortuous or criminal whether saran gas, or carbon monoxide from a neighboring property if it enters my property in such ppm to cause harm to my person.
The NAP principle encourages persons or people to not pollute in the natural sense of the term. Conscience, self-interest, and societal pressures would encourage individuals and companies to leave the atmosphere the same or better than I found it a prime interest to my well being. Ill will (in the business sense), bad press, and angry neighbors with pitchforks and torches would be detrimental to my economic viability.
Air as a naturally uncontrolled fungible asset where part and degree are factors in evidence is a complex issue regardless of which legal theory. It is readily solvable regarding NAP using property rights. Altering the composition of the atmosphere in a harmful manner to an individual and his person is the consideration. What part of that harm is transferred to another, to what part, and to what degree? Forensic order to ascertain danger, threat, and harm upon person in further consideration of natural property rights would not be ignored for arbitrary (in the legal sense) derived decree, ordinance, and legislation under color of law that we have now.
Quick and decisive arbitration would be a distinct advantage to the burdensome over-regulation, pay-to play schemes (like the Carbon Tax), and vagueries of law we currently experience.
Miencraft, Rateria, The Aradites, The United States Of Patriots, Venomringo
Huh would you look at that no responds from Neo-Ancapistan, pitty that.
Miencraft, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
Let's not be rude, however.
This, importantly, is something that's simultaneously important to a hell of a lot of things, and also ignored by most people.
Business does something bad, people stop buying goods/services from that business, business fails.
Doesn't matter if they're doing something bad for the environment, or they're discriminating against people, or whatever. You don't need regulations to get people to drive a company out of business for doing bad things. Business owner is a racist ass? People are going to find out, tell their friends, and pretty soon nobody's going to be using that guy's business for anything. Business is destroying the environment, people find out, tell their friends, business either fixes its problem or goes out of business.
I'd say I'm surprised that people don't trust the free market to resolve its issues on its own, but considering the growing support for socialism I'm really not.
Narland, Rateria
Huh would you look at that no responds from Neo-Ancapistan, pitty that.
I like a good debate
I don't blame you for wanting a longer debate.
Miencraft
How would one even go about responding to that essay of yours lol
Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, Venomringo, Fascist Dred
"I surrender to your superior intellect"
Rateria, Jadentopian Order
A MESSAGE FROM THE CHURCH
Due to the Lewdhomenism/Mhomenism merging, all Lewdonites are now Mhomenits from the perspective of the Lewdian church. Because Jadentopian Order was a Lewdonite, he is no longer fit for the position of Lewdianity's Pope. Because of this combined Condealism's disappearance, I have appointed a new Pope and a new Pepe.
The new Pope shall be Venomringo.
The new Pepe shall be Shirayuki Mizore.
That is all.
Rateria
Ooo.
I like.
Rateria
Nibbas whomst watch Rick and Morty
What do you guys think about California's self designation as a "sanctuary city?" Should the rule of law be enforced or should the states have the ability to override the Fedgov on this matter?
The Deutsch Reich
I think it would be a good idea if they were consistent with it.
These are the same assholes who have threatened to bring in the National Guard when certain cities/states threatened to do the same with gun laws.
It's a good idea, but they're only clinging to it because it's convenient. They're hypocrites of the lowest sort.
The Deutsch Reich
So the newest Firefox update broke Greasemonkey, which means the one decent NS++ substitute is also broken.
Good job Firefox. You're just turning into Chrome at this point.
Oh and also there's an edit button for the RMB now.
Narland, Rateria
States have every right to determine safe and legal emigration (the best decision is to recognize the unhindered right to lawfully travel by the most ready means of conveyance to which one is accustomed) and immigration (movement from one destination (usually country) to another). These are legally distinct from the Federal Gov's delegated authority of uniform naturalization (and who shall be conferred the rights, duties, and responsibilities of citizenship). Control over who can and cannot cross a border was never considered by the Founders to be an incidental (lesser and directly required) power related to the delegated power over naturalization.
Both the Federal Gov and State Govs have the duty to punish, remove, or expell outlaws, invaders, and insurrectionists from within their respective borders. Every jurisdiction has the obligation to confer sanctuary to those for whom due process or impartial justice has been or by evidence shall be denied, specifically those whom will be sent back to their former jurisdiction wherein an unjust death warrant awaits. None have the right to hinder those fleeing tyranny.
CA illiberality is trying to grant amnesty under color of sanctuary and typical of such pretentious obstreperousness will eventually confound, conflate, and destroy the meaningful expression of both (meaningful immigration and meaningful naturalization). The deep state establishment is continuing its march down wholesale acceptance of fascistic police state tactics as the new norm. Both should be rejected.
If CA does not wish to work with Federal "Authorities" who operate outside of their Constitutional bounds they have every right to do so. Also should CA ignore when Federal "Authorities" work within their delegated lawful (and Constitutional) bounds and CA choose to harbor violent offenders of people's life, liberty, and property they do so at their own peril and to their own shame. I think this is a necessary working out of Federalism and rule of law. It is an excellent opportunity that can be used to reduce the scope of unlawful Federal usurpation of authority, and reign in some aspects of lawlessness at the state and local levels if it is allowed to work itself out reasonably and calmly in favor of human rights.
Republic Of Minerva, Rateria
This message is not edited.
Just kidding yes it is.
Rateria
Bullsh!t!
HOLY SMOKES IT WORKS
Rateria, Just Lib Please
Now no one has to leave a long trail of deleted posts.
Post self-deleted by The States Of Balloon.
Post self-deleted by The States Of Balloon.
Post self-deleted by The States Of Balloon.
Post self-deleted by The States Of Balloon.
Post self-deleted by The States Of Balloon.
Wow this is pretty cool.
Narland, Rateria, Just Lib Please
RIP Ipianning, 2014 - 2017
Narland, Rateria
I love it how Balloon just did it anyway.
Miencraft, Narland
I would just like to inform the members of this region and its respected leaders that the UEI still maintains a presence here. Under the Deputy Secretary-General Kawther, we look forward to strengthening our relationship and working together for the common good. We have not forgotten Libertatem and we value it as one of our best friends and greatest allies. Thank you for your continued support and cooperation.
(I apologize for not making myself more known and I will try my best to be more active here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask by telegramming my main account, Western Arab Empire. Thanks again.)
Miencraft, Kawther, Pevvania, Narland, Rateria, The Aradites, Jadentopian Order, The Pakistani Federation
So some book about a really short dude and this old guy with a stick and how they go to kill a dragon or whatever and take his gold, and there's also some ring involved, is now 80 years old.
Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Tricksy hobbitses and Gandalves...
Rateria
I have returned from a painful period of computer troubles, and am now ready to continue to the fight to Make Libertatem Great Again!
Rateria
We are humbled by your presence.
Kawther, Rateria, Uei Ambassador To Libertatem
Office of the Chancellor of War:
We want [B][I]YOU[/B][/I] to join the Libertatem Armed Forces! The Chancellor of War is calling on you to protect and serve the great region of Libertatem through providing your endorsement services to the military. Our region is strong not only through our liberty-minded foundations in our laws and constitution, but also through the active participation of our current soldiers. Without our courageous soldiers guarding us than our sovereignty and independence would not only be threatened, but likely taken advantage of by our enemies! Do you love your region? Do you care enough to protect its values? And do you want to see your region become great again - greater than ever before? If so, join the Libertatem Armed Forces and show other regions who has the most dedicated patriots!
[spoiler=How to Join]If interested in joining, please telegram me![/spoiler]
Pevvania, Rateria, The Aradites, The United States Of Patriots
Why does all trap music sound like sh!t
Nevermind I figured it out
wb
Pevvania, Rateria
South Park anime
Rateria
Embassy requests
Enadia
After several weeks of discussions between myself and President Latrovia, I've agreed to his request that Enadia and Libertatem construct embassies. Their region is relatively new, but a strong roleplay community and active governance have propelled it to great size and increasing influence. Their enthusiasm and zeal paired with our experience means we can each mutually benefit and prosper from a strong bilateral relationship.
The Minarchist Alliance
Application rejected due to the size and age of the region.
Miencraft, Rateria, The Aradites, Truemerica
I rejoined the WA, so you guys can add me back on the "list of citizens" or whatever it be
Rateria
Trump has enacted a 220% tariff on bombardier.
When will lolbertarians get their head out of their arses and abandon this moron?
5$ says that's actually a good thing but the left just wants another reason to hate Trump
I changed my mind.
Death to Bombardier
What happened? I honestly don't know what's going on.
Canada gave like a billion dollars in subsidies to Bombardier, so 220% tariff on Bombardier was put so because Boeing filed a complaint that Canada was using unfair practices
Rateria
WHAT'D I TELL YA
Now I get it more. Thank you.
my presence here is most pleasurable, thank you
Rateria
Post self-deleted by Qovenza.
Embassy requests
Free Market Federation
The Federation shares our political values of individual liberty and free markets and have a seemingly active and inquisitive population, so their request has been approved.
Rateria
They used to have embassies with us.
You're correct, embassies were closed 118 days ago. Why was this?
Rateria
Whomever was in power wanted to shrink government via closing embassies.
Can any Senior government official here please contact me?
Rateria
Hello everybody!
Rateria
Hello there
Rateria
So I forgot that there are supposed to be Senate elections. Any citizens who want to run for Senate, please do that.
Rateria
Surprise Im alive
Jadentopian Order
No clearly you're lying
REGION OF LIBERTATEM:
At this hour, a choice has befallen your region. That choice is war or peace.
This region is being targeted by the agents of Dáxlam due to your relationship with Radiant Republic. A prolonged campaign that will bring misery to this region will continue if you persist in fostering a diplomatic relationship with an embassy with Radiant Republic.
Be it known that I, All Father of the Glorious Faith of Dáxlam, was the one who approved our membership in the Interregional Cooperation Treaty. Radiant Republic was never officially admitted to this treaty organization, and The Radiant was never officially removed.
This region is treaty bound to defend The Radiant and dereliction of duty will not be tolerated. No vote, to the contrary, was ever taken.
If treaties are to be signed, they should mean something.
Radiant Republic has declared war upon The Radiant, which was previously at peace. Shall this region continue to befriend an aggressor, we will have no choice but to escalate this conflict and place your fate in our crosshairs.
We will send our enemies to Osiris. Please, consider our plight. This rebellion occurred as I was bedside and was a crime against all that is good.
I anticipate a response from your leadership, as your president has reached out to me. Apologies if I have brought offense to any of your fine peoples, but I must defend what I built. Please understand.
-Dux Bradford John
I can't speak for anyone else in the government here but I for one don't care about your conflict. Have your war, but leave everyone else out of it. Libertatem is not a part of your war, so don't bring your war here.
Narland, Rateria
Unfortunately, you have signed the Interregional Cooperation Treaty and if your word is to mean more than the paper it's written on you should care. We are signatories and were never removed.
-Dux Bradford John
Which is to say we've been declared war upon, and this region is treaty bound to defend us. If you don't like it, don't sign treaties.
Czekania
The ICTO is defunct by now, and even if it wasn't, we withdrew from it a long time ago. We have no obligation to anyone still bound by it.
Narland, Rateria
This is unfortunate news. Will this region consider an argument considering why relations with Radiant Republic should cease? We wish to make a case and respect the internal affairs of these nations.
We wish to establish our case for legitimacy over the rebels. And we wish that this region chooses the appropriate embassy with Our Faith.
This war will come and go but we are Dáxlam, and that will not go.
Or must I regain the followers to be taken seriously once again? Is that how fickle we are? Please, my region has insurmountable glory, as does this one.
We would be proud to maintain relations with this region if you will do us the service of realizing the truth behind our plight. Please. Have decency. This battle is being fought and opining about its occurrence is an act of weakness, you all know that.
Relations with Radiant Republic must be cancelled. The Radiant is who you befriended. Honor that.
[B]OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT
President Pevvania
I speak on behalf of our entire region when I say that our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Las Vegas, particularly the victims and their families. Whatever the motive, this was a heinous and reprehensible crime against humanity. Nobody deserves to have their lives ripped away like this. God save Las Vegas.
Yours in liberty,
Pevvania
President V of the Second Republic
Libertatem
Miencraft, Einsiev, Narland, Republic Of Minerva, New Bradfordsburg, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Can someone put a list of those running for Senate in the World Factbook Entry or whatever it's called?
Rateria
No go away
Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
The communists couldn't defeat us, the fascists couldn't defeat us, and now you wish to take on Libertatem? Don't make me laugh.
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, Rateria, Fascist Dred, Truemerica, Jadentopian Order
I'm late to the party on this one, but:
You've been in this retarded civil war for like a month now. Please tell us how you are going to destroy us. Come on, I'm listening...
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, Rateria
Yes it is.
It's being fought between two Radiants. Nobody else is involved. Don't pretend anyone else is involved.
You want to play your little game, that's fine. But don't try to get anyone else to play with you.
Einsiev, Narland, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
doing gods work here
https://strawpoll.com/9c3kg2ag
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
I'll run for Senate
Rateria
Which seat?
Quick announcement
I wanted to let you know that I have started a mentorship program for nations that are new to this region or the game. If you want to become a member contact me and you're in. Here is the link for the factbook, I decided to keep this simple: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=neo-icelandic_commonwealth/detail=factbook/id=main
Rateria
I intend to run for my seat, my campaign message will be posted later this week.
Rateria, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
I might as well run for my seat again.
The United States Of Patriots, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Post self-deleted by New Bradfordsburg.
As The Radiant is currently hopeful of mediation of this conflict, through the United Empire of Islam, we have cancelled embassy closures. The words of your leaders are wise and we wish not to involve this region in our terrible conflict.
-Dux Bradford John
Rateria
Seat 4
Rateria
Announcement
I am going to run for seat 5 in the upcoming Senate elections as an independent. I am an active member of the community here and I believe my time has come. What I want to do as a senator is:
-Changing the voting system. I think we can all agree that the current voting system, especially for the Senate, is very silly.
-Changing the law code. The law code needs to be much more detailed and more in-depth. We must have better definitions of crimes so that nations can know if they are committing crimes or not.
-Bill of rights. The right to free speech, freedom of opinion, freedom of religion and so on must be guaranteed, and I will fight for that if I become Senator
-Merge with smaller regions. I think that the best way to expand our population is by merging with smaller, dying regions, but only if they are libertarian in nature. We don't want Libertatem to become another one of those 'everyone's welcome' type of region
#LibForSenate2017 #MakeLibertatemGreatAgain
Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Truemerica, Jevoruz
...That's what I thought.
Miencraft, Rateria
Constitution, Article 6.
Elaborate.
Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Article 6 is not clear enough
What are you talking about?
Rateria
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.