Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
To be honest, I'm afraid it's been less of a civil dialogue gone harsh than it has been two cliques of gabby teenagers making vicious allegations about the other group. For a couple of supposedly civilized regions, I'll be the first to admit we've handled the long-since-soured relationship quite poorly.
Indeed, that could be confusing, since the name of the region is from Latin, meaning "liberty."
Also, there is a faint sense of hostility (possibly benin or malicious) that one can easily sense between our two regions. Putting a stop to this would be another wonderful goal.
Cylthropia, you have no right to dictate how our region believes and its ideology and so forth. It actually is in the constitution. In the Article regarding Parties, there is a link to the Parties, which include the "Libertarian Party".
What do you both propose regarding the IRU and embassies?
Agreed, Mars. Although I have never sent any hostile telegrams to any of your citizenry (for I was not around at the time), I do represent the FFS, therefore absorbing all previous actions done by the State.
*Takes the Tea*
Ok. I have natural rights: Life, Liberty and Property. Those are mine, and can not be justly taken away. I have the Freedom of Speech. I can say what I want about you.
As for the Recruitment Telegram, it was from Balkans.
Cylthropia, I would work towards that goal.
I would start with a mor thawed relations such as permanent embassies with ambassadors and the issue over the IRU may be discused later
Yes, Balkans was the Minister of Foreign Affairs and now the President. He is obviously not responsible for recruitment.
Representing GOR I am here to make sure Cylthropia behaves himself and more specifically to publicly say the reason we have a Libertarian tag in the FFS is because it is a welcomed idea not necessarily representative of the populace.
I happen to be strong allies with Balkans. Whatever he has done, I hope it can be rectified.
I wish to create permanent embassies as well. The question is, will you accept them?
*sets down tea*
Excuse me, but in no way did I dictate your region's beliefs. I literally told you what your Vice WAD practices.
Why did you interpret it as such? I am confused.
The FA Ministry has no jurisdiction over the recruitment now, that would be the Interior Affairs Minister
GOR, I am a women. :|
Good. Thank you. I wish that had been clarified, but no one said that. Balkans said it was a libertarian region.
Balkans was President at the time actually.
I am glad you are now informed. This meeting has already benefited us both! :)
Cylthropia, take up thy tea once again. I merely wish for comments on my region's government to be...severely...limited.
@Saxons
I never said that he wasn't. I was just informing our friends what position our President has held to show that he was in no position to make an offical recruitment telegram.
So, I am right. You are Neo-Conservatives. Not Libertarians.
Western Mars proved this, a few weeks ago. That's why I left.
yes Liberosa, lets begin talks on embassies and permanent ammbassadors
Let us cease the recruitment talks. They are past problems, easily forgiven.
@Cyl
Someone could have said this and it seemed pretty formal. He's the President, and personally invited me. I guess that's not enough.
I do apologize, dear Liberosia. I was not trying to target your government (or people's-whichever term you wish to use), but just pointing out that one of your advisor's political principles were different from what your region, generally stands for.
I believe you should request embassies with my region. We have extended an olive branch to you multiple times, which were, summarily, rejected. I will accept the request.
@NST
Balkans has a way with words, doesn't he. :)
Please, Liberosia, do not just immediately to our goal.
We should 'smooth out the road underneath us before building the bridge'.
jump*
the discusion over the IRU is a sensitive talk, may we postpone this delegation till tomorow at 8pm central, im going to bed
Good night.
@Cyl
I believe in liberty. The difference between you, me and Libertatem is a believe in more freedom than you do. And Balkans confused me, so you should carry this out with him.
I support embassies, because we have bigger problems than internal differences of anti-communism and anti-fascism.
I am a direct kind of person, Cylthropia.
However, my cup is only 1/3 empty. I would like to continue talking. :)
I do not want to retread these tired personal arguments. We're here strictly on business.
Embassies are a tricky thing. We in the Federation have tended to consider embassies signs of some kind of alliance -- at the very least, it's an implicit endorsement of the other. It's simply that some of us feel that Libertatem and the FFS do not and likely will never see eye-to-eye on certain issues. The question is, is this an issue contentious enough to proscribe embassies between us?
Your 'kind of person' seems a truly wonderful one, but on the other hand, I am not. Let us solve all of these problems instead of just masking them.
West Mars:
Do you oppose communism and fascism?
Do you believe in liberty (any form)?
Then we as regions agree.
@NTS
I will take it up with our President to be 'less confusing' in his recruitment telegrams should he feel the need to send out more.
Absolutely. All anti-communist regions should be considered allies, geopolitically. We are also moving towards a stance of anti-fascism, so that brings us closer.
We agree on the two, very broad point you have listed. Again, jumping to embassies is just foolish at this point.
Here's how it should work: embassies.
They foster peace. We shall never be rid of each other, so we might as well embrace each other.
@Cyl
The only problem is you called me a communist for saying "neo-con tyrants". What? I'm the communist? Anyone who knows me can testify that I hate communists. I'm an Objectivist, mild Anarcho-Capitalist and pro-libertarian. Haven't truly decided which to go with yet.
Liberosia, if you are moving against a stance of anti-fascism, then I suppose you would have to end your war on communism, for that in its self is fascist against communists, which is a legitimate economic system.
I did not call you a communist.
*facepalm* Cylthropia, no...
The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Right?
We have common enemies. It is not a military alliance, nor ideological. Just a anti-communist alliance.
*wipes Liberosia's face*
Honey, don't do that to yourself. :(
Listen. NST's questions get at the heart of it. After all, the Federation has built embassies with regions who are further away from us ideologically than Libertatem. What justification do we have except personal grievance and the occasional fundamental disagreement to distance ourselves from you?
On the other hand, I don't want to downplay the very fundamental nature of our disagreement. If I can paint broadly, you believe in empire; we do not. You believe in taking on other regions to spread capitalism, liberty, and the like; we prefer a much more "live and let live" policy. Your system of government is much more centralized, and ours is less so. These are not trivial matters.
...
@Cyl
Ok. I Roleplayed as a Nazi so I could understand their ideology. It's and educational thing, ok? That's what it was. Fascism is not just anti-communism. Wow, gosh no. Absolute Totalitarianism, Socialism, Social Conservatism, Anti-Semitism, Aryan Supremacy? Heard of those?
The War on Communism is justified because it is a defensive war: we are defending the people from a big, red leech.
Actually, I believe that your 'War on Communism' is just really a 'War on Despotism'.
Communism is an economic system, which obviously can not apply to NationStates. The government owns all business and means of production in a communism. In NationStates, there are not means of production. However, the government can control the people for radical political change, otherwise known as a Despot, whom runs a despotism.
The last two have some truth to them. However, I must correct you on the Empire. It functions as a confederacy; it is Empire in name only.
@ Western Mars:
I have been pushing for decentralization since I arrived. And we are not the aggressors. Who attacked first? The Communists, in 1848. They killed 85-140 Million People. I take that as justification for a war. It's Self-Defense and defense of humanity, in a way.
This war is not only correlating to NS, Cyl. It is also a real life opposition to communism. Also, you're talking about socialism.
A War on Communism demonstrates a fascist attitude to those whom want to spread that "read leech". I suppose you can adopt a more refined anti-fascist policy, such as ours...?
See, you don't understand communism. Communism, in reality, is anarchism where everyone shares the production of everything.
You think of Stalinism, Bolshevism and Socialism. Not real Communism. We oppose all of these ideals because they crush liberty.
Communism is a branch of Socialism except the government does not take human rights into consideration in a communism, but that is all bureaucratic.
The fact still remains that the economic system of a communism is still what I described.
I have read the writings of Carl Marx, the father of communism.
Cylthropia...
...
...
We don't tolerate communism because it spreads death and destruction. Marx thought about economics and politics as one and the same, so we shall too. Inevitably, what we call communism which is really iron fist socialism, relies on authoritarianism, just like fascism.
The name is misleading then, and I'm not in a position to judge whether it is fact or falsehood, but I'm going to agree that it is a Confederacy in truth.
It reminds me of the scene in The Godfather, where Don Vito Corleone is talking with the heads of all the other families in the Cosa Nostra, negotiating peace and safety for his son's return. One of the heads remarks that all they want is for the Corleones to allow the use of their resources for the others to use, because times have changed. Then he jokingly reminds the families, "After all, we are not Communists."
It is true. We are not Communists. But that doesn't necessarily mean our goals are aligned. Some systems are still better than others, even though they share the same virtue of Not Being Communism.
Don't we all recall when Anticomintern was dissolved over just this question? Who is allowed in the Anti-Communist clubhouse?
Ugh. You again do not understand fascism, or communism:
Communism is parasitism. Institutionalized theft of individual labors on a massive scale.
Fascism: Absolute Authoritarianism, both socially and economically.
We are strictly defending the NS from communist aggressors.
anarchism is the belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.
Communism, along with Socialism involved extreme amounts of government.
Post self-deleted by Liberosia.
Communism is not a branch of socialism. Socialism, in a modern sense, is communism that was modified to become statist.
Fascism is an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
*Ahem.* I don't think that our time and energy is spent productively arguing over political definitions. Intellectuals devote entire careers arguing over political definitions.
Socialist powers came before Communist ones. The nature greed of man lead to communism, evolving from Socialism.
Mars, I get it. Here's the deal. We just want an embassy with you so that we will be held responsible, both of us, for any misgivings, also reducing the possibility of war. We don't have to get into more than that for now.
What the F-ck.
Anarchism is not that, that is Voluntary Anarchism. My kind. Anarchism by itself is the dissolution of the state.
Communism is Anarcho-Communism. Read.
Agreed, Mars. *sips tea*
Moving on.
Please, Vice WAD New Sea Territory, I wish to commit to an educated debate. Please refrain from using such language.
Fascism is not, and NEVER has been right wing.
You see politics in two-dimensions. It is 3D.
Communism is anarchism.
Socialism is authoritarianism.
Liberosia, we are here so that you 'may go into it'.
Cylthropia, I think you have read a great deal of Marx and communist authors. I think you have an extensive knowledge of history and ideology. I think you've been in this argument before. I also think you're fundamentally mistaken and there's nothing I can do to change that.
Mars, let us return to embassy talks.
I am sorry, but the definition of Fascism was from my college dictionary.
Well, no. You know why? Because you are arguing what the communist argues: Fascism as right wing. I experienced it and was actually taught from real Nazis. I wanted to know the truth about it from them: it is NATIONAL SOCIALISM. Right Social Laws, Left Economics. You don't understand that Social Axis and Economic Axis are different.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/index
Read.
Liberosia, may I remind you that exchanging embassies is an ultimate goal. We must first establish a mutual culture of respect between our regions.
I think that's a fair goal, Liberosia. If we can coexist, that'd be enough, I think, and a war between us would hardly help the overall cause.
Respectable Senatress, it seems to me that the idea is that embassies come first, mutual respect follows.
Nazi is an acronym. It is translated to Nationalsozialismus, which is where we get the letters from. Nationalsozialismus, in English mean the Nations Socialist Party of Germany.
You were taught by Socialists what Communism meant?
I tend to not trust the word of intellectuals who write definitions. My history text book is extremely biased and I know it. It was written by highly qualified...leftists. Economically, fascism is left-wing. Politically, we libertarians do not see the left-right scale. We see authoritarian vs. libertarian and that's all. Both socialism and communism has traditionally been authoritarian governments and left-wing economies.
I see, but sadly I can not agree to this. At least in a real world scenario, this would never happen, and frankly I am not willing to take a chance. I will gladly show mutual respect if it is received.
Really? Ok. You act as If I don't know this. But "Nazi" is the acronym for them. So, you admitted they are National SOCIALISTS. Economic leftism, and anything with "national" in front of it means right-wing social conservatism and racism. National Bolshevism. National Anarchism. National Liberalism.
Cylthropia, I am going to back away from this.
Mars, do we have a plan, then?
Because of your political belief you just block out an entire spectrum's worth of political systems?
That is the first step in building embassies with us.
NST, please telegram me.
NTS, your founder just said you don't use left or right to categorize political ideologies. I am confused as to what you interpret Socialism as.
Liberosia, may I remind you that I, too am a Senator of the Federation of Free States. You need a majority's vote to build an embassy in our region.
Socialism: only an economic system (left wing). It utilizes authoritarian politics, usually.
No. We see a spectrum that measures social libertarian/authoritarian and economic left/right. You don't understand this. You live in the simple conservative-liberal world were everything is absolute. Nothing is absolute in politics.
Dear Senatress, I acknowledge this, but you were preoccupied.
Yet your region remains absolute in defying "communism"...
Absolute
Ugh: Socialism is social libertarianism (liberalism) and economic leftism.
Fascism: Social Authoritarianism (conservatism) and economic leftism.
Libertarianism: Social Libertarianism and economic rightism.
I am by no means preoccupied.
I have entertained a wonderful conversation with one of your advisors while maintaining one with you regarding relationships.
That is different. That is a war against something that threatened us, and by self defense we defend ourselves. That;s not politics, but philosophy.
That is a joke, for socialism is not liberalsim.
Very well.
Let's get something straight. When we say Communism, we mean any and all left-wing nations/regions (not libertarian) that support a revolution. This includes Leninism, Stalinism, Marxism, Maoism, etc.
..............................
SOCIAL LIBERALISM. SOCIAL. As in, pro-gay marriage and abortion and drugs and other stuff like that. Yes they are. They are socially liberal.
I'm done. I can't do this. You deny reality.
Those are the extrems of left-wing nations. What about the mixture of left and middle? (a lesser extreme of left-wing politics)
I support embassies, as I told Conservative Idealism a few days ago I decided to forget our somewhat conflicted past, the fact remains we are two of the largest conservative regions around. I believe the problem always was a lack of understanding of the other regions political system, they are quite different, but I think we can move past that.
EVERYBODY FREEZE! Okay, moving onto regional politics.
Saxons, I agree wholeheartedly.
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.