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Region: Libertatem

History

Funkytopia wrote:

While nation-building is not an option, we can keep hitting them with drones and airstrikes every time they start to build up their capability. Until the situation changes on the ground, that's really the West's only option.

That sounds like a recipe for endless war.

Pevvania wrote:What are your thoughs on deflation?

It's pretty good. It lowers prices and increases value of savings so it encourages savings, not loans, which is positive.

Post self-deleted by Funkytopia.

Lack There Of wrote:That sounds like a recipe for endless war.

On the whole, I think the biggest mistake is to assume that there is a "solution." We are going to have to deal with low intensity conflicts for decades, whatever we end up doing.

Using drones and limited airstrikes / special ops is the least costly option. The others are (1) going back to the 1990's and allowing IS to grow in capability until they can launch a high-level strike on US targets and then overreacting or (2) pursuing a major nation-building operation.

Funkytopia wrote:On the whole, I think the biggest mistake is to assume that there is a "solution." We are going to have to deal with low intensity conflicts for decades, whatever we end up doing.

Using drones and limited airstrikes / special ops is the least costly option. The others are (1) going back to the 1990's and allowing IS to grow in capability until they can launch a high-level strike on US targets and then overreacting or (2) pursuing a major nation-building operation.

or just not do anything and leave letting the natives to sort it out. If alqueda is a direct result of US intervention in Afghanistan during the 80s and ISIS is a direct result of US intervention in iraq during the last decade, I hate to think what another intervention will produce. It is an endless cycle. This is the part of the world that literally invented the concept of "an eye for an eye" I completely agree that there is no solution. My lack of understanding revolves around why we would take action if there is no solution to be had.

Lack There Of wrote:or just not do anything and leave letting the natives to sort it out. If alqueda is a direct result of US intervention in Afghanistan during the 80s and ISIS is a direct result of US intervention in iraq during the last decade, I hate to think what another intervention will produce. It is an endless cycle. This is the part of the world that literally invented the concept of "an eye for an eye" I completely agree that there is no solution. My lack of understanding revolves around why we would take action if there is no solution to be had.

I don't agree with the popular myth that the US involvement directly resulted in Al Qaida's creation. Afghanistan was already destabilized and ripe for extremism due to the Soviet invasion. Al Qaida didn't attack us using decades old Soviet weaponry we provided, they did so using funds and an infrastructure they developed while being left alone in 1990's era Afghanistan and Sudan. Al Qaida's history could just as easily serve as evidence that we shouldn't allow a region to fester and extremist groups to develop their capabilities.

If you take your argument and switch "Assad/ISIS" and "FSA" with "Taliban/Al Qaida" and "Massoud/Northern Alliance," you will have the exact same argument the old men in Washington made when they decided to leave the Afghans to fight it out.

Sorry guys I was at counciling.

Funkytopia wrote:I don't agree with the popular myth that the US involvement directly resulted in Al Qaida's creation. Afghanistan was already destabilized and ripe for extremism due to the Soviet invasion. Al Qaida didn't attack us using decades old Soviet weaponry we provided, they did so using funds and an infrastructure they developed while being left alone in 1990's era Afghanistan and Sudan. Al Qaida's history could just as easily serve as evidence that we shouldn't allow a region to fester and extremist groups to develop their capabilities.

If you take your argument and switch "Assad/ISIS" and "FSA" with "Taliban/Al Qaida" and "Massoud/Northern Alliance," you will have the exact same argument the old men in Washington made when they decided to leave the Afghans to fight it out.

^This. Al-Qaeda were newcomers to the Soviet-Afghan War, only arriving in 1988 as a training organisation for foreigners that wanted to join the mujahideen. It's my understanding that they didn't partake in any combat. Afterwards, they just helped fill the power vacuum that resulted from the collapse of Communism.

Pevvania wrote:^This. Al-Qaeda were newcomers to the Soviet-Afghan War, only arriving in 1988 as a training organisation for foreigners that wanted to join the mujahideen. It's my understanding that they didn't partake in any combat. Afterwards, they just helped fill the power vacuum that resulted from the collapse of Communism.

You're right. This is the guy who got the bulk of our help during the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

Probably one of the greatest allies the US has had since the end of the cold war...

The Amarican Empire wrote:Sorry guys I was at counciling.

For a second I thought you said "conceding" ;) lol

Pevvania wrote:^This. Al-Qaeda were newcomers to the Soviet-Afghan War, only arriving in 1988 as a training organisation for foreigners that wanted to join the mujahideen. It's my understanding that they didn't partake in any combat. Afterwards, they just helped fill the power vacuum that resulted from the collapse of Communism.

emphasis added. The point being we have no concept of what will happen once we leave.

Lack There Of wrote:emphasis added. The point being we have no concept of what will happen once we leave.

Like I said, it's unrealistic to assume that we even can "leave" (whatever that means) in the foreseeable future. Luckily, drone technology has limited the cost in blood and treasure of keeping a permanent (primarily aerial) presence.

Funkytopia wrote:Like I said, it's unrealistic to assume that we even can "leave" (whatever that means) in the foreseeable future.

how so

Lack There Of wrote:how so

I've already answered that:

Funkytopia wrote: In order [for a terrorist group] to achieve a high-level attack, the main obstacles are training operatives, obtaining travel documents, building networks of safe houses, and (above all) funding. All of these things require a base of operations that Islamic State-controlled territories in Iraq and Syria provide. That's why we cannot stand by while Islamic State militants turn half of the Levant into Afghanistan 2.0. While nation-building is not an option, we can keep hitting them with drones and airstrikes every time they start to build up their capability. Until the situation changes on the ground, that's really the West's only option.

We basically have two choices:

1. Ignore the problem while we know the Islamic State is planning major attacks against US and other targets. This results in a major attack and then we overreact, resulting in major US military involvement. In the end, this option is expensive, requires much more US involvement, and results in a lot more people dying on both sides.

2. We use drones, targeted airstrikes, intelligence gathering, and special ops to keep pressure on the enemy until the region stabilizes. The west will need to continually try to find some partner that we can feasibly deal with. In similar situations, it has taken decades for that to happen. For that reason, this may fit the description of "endless war," but in the long run the cost is certainly manageable and results in far fewer western casualties.

There are numerous examples of Option 2 actually working (Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc...). We know what happens when we choose Option 1. If there's a third option, I haven't heard it yet.

Post self-deleted by The Liberty State.

Northern Prussia wrote:That is by far the most ignorant and biggoted statement I have read all day. Who on this planet will create a "defense agency" to fight ISIS. Open your eyes and look around, these extremist are killing scores of innocent and you are in belief that they can get up and just leave. There is a war out there and these people are being shot for any reason. You are ignorant as all Americans.

Somalians would...

Most Americans WOULD jump to go to war. I am the ultimate liberal reactionary.

plus, I was born in Canada, so I am not 100% ignorant.

Kazakhstan greatest country in the world all other countrys are run by little girls.

Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium!

Other countries have inferior potassium.

Kazakhstan home of the tinshein swimming pool it's length thirty metre ans width six metre.

Filtration system a marvel to behold it removes 80 percent of human solid waste.

Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place, from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.

Kazakhstan, friend of all except Uzbekistan, they very nosey people withe bone in theire brain.

Kazakhstan, industry best in the world, we invented toffee and the trouser belt.

Kazakhstan, prostitutes cleanest in the region, except of course for Turkmenistan's.

Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place, from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.

Come grasp the mighty phenis of our leader, from juction with testes to tip of its face.

Post self-deleted by The Amarican Empire.

So...

Umm

Russia and China have Vited No against attacking Syria.

Russia has moved troops to it's Western and Southern Borders. They have moved ships to the Eastern Border and have warned if America continues Airstrikes they will have to get involved.

The Feds have reported that there could be lone wolf attacks on America using "dirty bombs" (Suitcase sized Nuclear Bombs that if blown up in a city can reportedly kill millions)

It's time to leave the Middle East. If we don't we could start World War 3

Would have never happened if we asked for permission from assad yo bomb isil.

Funkytopia wrote:I've already answered that:

We basically have two choices:

1. Ignore the problem while we know the Islamic State is planning major attacks against US and other targets. This results in a major attack and then we overreact, resulting in major US military involvement. In the end, this option is expensive, requires much more US involvement, and results in a lot more people dying on both sides.

2. We use drones, targeted airstrikes, intelligence gathering, and special ops to keep pressure on the enemy until the region stabilizes. The west will need to continually try to find some partner that we can feasibly deal with. In similar situations, it has taken decades for that to happen. For that reason, this may fit the description of "endless war," but in the long run the cost is certainly manageable and results in far fewer western casualties.

There are numerous examples of Option 2 actually working (Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc...). We know what happens when we choose Option 1. If there's a third option, I haven't heard it yet.

The latter sound tempting if not to good to bet true. If we keep up the spec ops and drones the pressure will be great and the terror networks will become crippled if not dissolve. Such tactics have proven to be spectacular in preventing new terrorist attacks on american soil and have greatly weakened the pull of terrorist groups, except when they havent.

1) this strategy did not prevent the underwear bomber (stopped by passengers) the time square attack (stopped by passerby) and most notably the Boston Bombing (not stopped). Even with the escalation of drone warfare and special operation forces terrorists still threaten the country. Not only has this proven to be a futile effort the assaults on national sovereignty on our "allies" in the region have fulled recruitment for terrorist organizations.

2) I would argue a third option is available, among others, to let the Arabs sort out their own problems. As we have seen with the Arab nations assisting with the air strikes in syria, they are more then willing to step up to he plate when they feel they are threatened. We have no concept of what a self-supporting middle east would look like simply because there hasnt been one since the release of the colonies. The western powers have been in a constant state of meddling since world war 2 and we can see the fruits.

30 While this may sound like "ignoring the problem" the state already does a pretty good job at ignoring the other elephants in the room that are far more dangerous in a real and literal sense than some hoodrats living in caves half way across the world. Let us not forgot the unprecedented violence that seeps through our southern boarder. It is a literal warzone and its only getting worse, a conflict that shows the true barbarity of human nature, and furthermore a conflict that could be nullified by a liberalization of american drug policy at little cost to anyone. If were going on a simple "lives saved ratio" how about addressing intercity violence in places like Chicago where more people died from gun fire during the iraqi campaign than soldiers in actual battlefield. The real violence that effects americans everyday are already being ignored so we can keep the warmachine going.

Your argument is akin to "We locked our doors, but we had an attempted break in. We might as well just leave the windows and doors open." The attempted Times Square and the underwear bomber were not simply foiled by luck- they didnt work because the operatives were untrained, lacked resources and funding. Those are the exact sort of things a secure base in Afghanistan or elsewhere would have given them. The "lone-wolf"-style Boston bombing wasn't even in the same ballpark as the 9/11 attacks with hundreds or thousands dead and hundreds of billions of dollars in damage. The fact remains that we have not had a single successful major attack since we denied Al Qaida a secure base of operations. The reason for why this non-ideological approach works is well studied and understood:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2010/RAND_MG965.pdf

Your options 1 and 3 are indistinguishable. "Let the Arabs sort out their problems"? Sure, just like we let the Afghans sort out their problems in the 90's.

Your error is trying to look at geopolitics from a grand philosophical/ideological point of view. This has nothing to do with issues of national sovereignty or the Middle East's need to "find itself" or gang-related violence in Chicago or the debate over the battle over big/little government. The issue is simple: There are organizations operating in Iraq and Syria that are planning to attack the US and its allies. It's the duty of the US government to destroy them and deny them the ability to plan their attacks. Period.

The Cooperative Union boarded, hijacked and destroyed in a two-day covert operation led by General Minerva and myself. Thanks to Private Funkytopia and Corporal Miencraft for the assistance.

A special thanks to a certain government official within The League Of Reformed Socialist States that leaked us the password.

We will not stand by while a region harbours our enemies, attacks our captures and threatens our security even while we offer peace.

Australian Liberal Democratic Senator David Leyonhjelm is having great success at advancing libertarian ideals. In just over a month in the senate, he's already managed to cut income taxes for the poor, help to repeal the carbon tax and has prevented intelligence agencies from warrantless data collection. He's Australia's Ron Paul - but more politically powerful than he ever was.

Pevvania wrote:The Cooperative Union boarded, hijacked and destroyed in a two-day covert operation led by General Minerva and myself. Thanks to Private Funkytopia and Corporal Miencraft for the assistance.

*coughs*

Muh Roads wrote:*coughs*

That wasn't Mien... lol

Muh is a Corporal.

Mien is a Colonel.

Humpheria wrote:Muh is a Corporal.

Mien is a Colonel.

Huh, didn't even know I had a rank. Eh wither way, I was involved in the raid not Mien as my puppets name might have suggested somehow.

Pevvania wrote:The Cooperative Union boarded, hijacked and destroyed in a two-day covert operation led by General Minerva and myself. Thanks to Private Funkytopia and Corporal Miencraft for the assistance...

...We will not stand by while a region harbours our enemies, attacks our captures and threatens our security even while we offer peace.

Glad to be of help!

Muh Roads wrote:*coughs*

Crap, my mistake. Thanks a lot, Corporal Roads.

Pevvania wrote:Crap, my mistake. Thanks a lot, Corporal Roads.

No problemo!

Muh Roads wrote:No problemo!

*lattesalute*

... lol

Just found out that someone in my politics class is a self-described "left-libertarian"

lol

Muh Roads wrote:*lattesalute*

... lol

Hey, the latte salutes are my job.

Congratulations Amarican.

Anyone here watch Arrested Development?

As the VP has.... strongly, put it. I have not updated the radio. So, until Pev sends me music like I asked him to. We will be listening to my shtuff. We take tri-daily requests.

Humpheria wrote:As the VP has.... strongly, put it. I have not updated the radio. So, until Pev sends me music like I asked him to. We will be listening to my shtuff. We take tri-daily requests.

You did? Well, here's one of my favourites from the 60s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLV4_xaYynY

Why not some Johnny Cash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY8_vZXo8oY

I'm sure you all would like what he sings about in this song especially.

Why not Paul?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aGAIWe3uE

OK TOO MUCH!!!

I take a new one every three days

Humpheria wrote:OK TOO MUCH!!!

I take a new one every three days

We're just shelling out some recommendations, yo.

Humpheria wrote:OK TOO MUCH!!!

I take a new one every three days

That said, I'll take any recommendations any day and then mass-send them all to the Humpster every third day to bypass that.

Fun fact: the regional map has been viewed 1000 times.

Coming soon: Conservative Idealism Rock Radio

Guys...you'll have to forgive my pedantism here...but there's an X in Hendrix.

All Along The Watchtower changed my life on the 1st of May, 2007. It sparked my interest in music for the first time. Forever grateful, I am.

Also, may I suggest a song for the radio?

You Gave Me Love by Crown Heights Affair. Beautiful, beautiful vocals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DaQ8eF31XA

How's everything going over here in your neck of the woods?

Rotgeheim wrote:Why not some Johnny Cash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY8_vZXo8oY

I'm sure you all would like what he sings about in this song especially.

YEAH

Some riveting conversation today.

So Eric Holder retired. Obama said he served valiantly, what's wrong with that statement?

Saw a really good tweet today:

"Remember to use the proper plural, as in "Eric Holder is the shi**iest of all attorneys general.""

https://twitter.com/AnthonyBialy/status/515264892971257856

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Coming soon: Conservative Idealism Death Metal and Grunge Radio

Sounds great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUh7GgE-OvE

For all you America-hatin commies.

Holder helped pick Biden as VP. Great guy...

"You burn my flag, i'll shoot you. I do it with love, like a good ol American."

I could not agree more, and I am not being sarcastic.

Uh, who is the genius that mispelled Hendrix?

Right-Winged Nation wrote:"You burn my flag, i'll shoot you. I do it with love, like a good ol American."

I could not agree more, and I am not being sarcastic.

Johnny Cash. He state before that some stuff to the effect of America is the best country ever and that we have the right to bear arms, free speech and even to burn the flag but...then the quote.

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Uh, who is the genius that mispelled Hendrix?

*hides*

Humpheria wrote:Some riveting conversation today.

Indeed. My God I decided to take a screen shot so I would never forget it.

"Cough"

Best damn conversation ever. And that lasted 6 hours

Right-Winged Nation wrote:C'mon man

You raising your voice at the Humpedent?

Right-Winged Nation wrote:C'mon man

Maybe he doesn't like the guy who would perform oral sex on a guitar

The Amarican Empire wrote:You raising your voice at the Humpedent?

If I would have used an exclamation point. Anyways, he done messed up.

Atomic Fest wrote:Maybe he doesn't like the guy who would perform oral sex on a guitar

Doesn't mean he can misspell his name.

Right-Winged Nation wrote:If I would have used an exclamation point. Anyways, he done messed up.

Doesn't matter humps not obama. Hump is allowed to mess up once in a while.

Atomic Fest wrote:Maybe he doesn't like the guy who would perform oral sex on a guitar

And hey, Hendrix was a master. He is the greatest to ever touch a guitar.

The Amarican Empire wrote:Doesn't matter humps not obama. Hump is allowed to mess up once in a while.

I know. I am just giving him a hard time because I am a major Hendrix fan.

Next ad on Nationstates. Tell humpy that you have his back!

So I am super excited, Jimi: All by my Side comes out tomorrow.

I present the Libertatem Secret Service It is the new private security force who's duty is to protect the President of Libertatem.

The Amarican Empire wrote:I present the Libertatem Secret Service It is the new private security force who's duty is to protect the President of Libertatem.

Yay

Shooting someone because they burned cloth that representing a coercive body of oligarchs?... no.

Post self-deleted by Republic Of Minerva.

Post self-deleted by Republic Of Minerva.

Lol[nation=short]DK[/nation], claiming we are the enemy of all leftist regions.

The Ucr, Communist Republic (now AAA), and our allies in The Commonwealth Of Democratic Nations disagree.

@ DK (Das Kommune)

damn Donkey Kong

Likewise, the raid on TCU is justifiable. The former founder of that region had stood against us and tried to condemn us. Among other things, I have evidence to suggest that the region had come into conflict with one of our former allies, The New British Empire, and had provided troops to the red fleet or antifa.

Zeouria wrote:Shooting someone because they burned cloth that representing a coercive body of oligarchs?... no.

Tsar understanding some conservative humor in a joking fashion? .. no.

Right-Winged Nation wrote:And hey, Hendrix was a master. He is the greatest to ever touch a guitar.

I would lean towards Eddie Van Halen

I say we only play Demi Lovato until the ears of our enemies bleed.

So I am not the only one who can't stand Demi Lovato, good to know

Atomic Fest wrote:I would lean towards Eddie Van Halen

Definitely. EVH > Hendrix.

Muh Roads wrote:I say we only play Demi Lovato until the ears of our enemies bleed.

Wouldn't something that awful violate the Geneva Convention?

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:Definitely. EVH > Hendrix.

Wouldn't something that awful violate the Geneva Convention?

Woah, I like Eddie Van Halen, great guitarist, but no one passes Jimi.

My flag is once again possible in Minecraft!

http://www.planetminecraft.com/banner/minecraft-banner-13847/

"Friday night, football is king!"

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Woah, I like Eddie Van Halen, great guitarist, but no one passes Jimi.

He wasn't that great...

Atomic Fest wrote:He wasn't that great...

Hendrix was pretty good bro.

I'm back for a couple days... my electrical controls fun has been interesting.

Humpheria wrote:Tsar understanding some conservative humor in a joking fashion? .. no.

Right-Winged Nation wrote:"You burn my flag, i'll shoot you. I do it with love, like a good ol American."

I could not agree more, and I am not being sarcastic.

I don't quite know the origin of burning the American flag, but I think I was told it had something to do with not allowing the enemy to capture the banner.

Conservative Idealism In Libertatem wrote:

Wouldn't something that awful violate the Geneva Convention?

Could be worse....

Oh yeah yeah yeah, yeah. I think I did it again.

Heheh

So these guys in this region Das Kommune told me you guys were evil imperialistic Capitalistic Equalists? Is this true?

Ad-Shabi wrote:So these guys in this region Das Kommune told me you guys were evil imperialistic Capitalistic Equalists? Is this true?

No, just capitalists.

Say, what's an equalist?

I've got a REATO thread up in gameplay, hopefully this will help our activity and revitalize cooperation between member regions.

Here: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=313787

Everyone seems to have forgotten about the Board elections. Is anyone going to run?

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.