Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
I think that instead of bailouts and other forms of economic stimulus, I much prefer giving cash to American consumers (and taxpayers) directly in order for the economy to be stimulated organically- through consumers purchasing goods from private enterprise.
I know personally of many working people who have been laid off and are unpaid for the coming weeks; as taxpayers, I think the government has a responsibility to provide a safety net for them.
[quote=pevvania;37928679]Just throwing this out there, I don't have strong views on this either way and can be convinced: but aren't the coronavirus stimulus packages necessary for this crisis? [quote]
Debasing the currency (stimulus, corporate welfare, throwing money at problem X through bureau and corp) and inflating the economy (free money to non-producers) from both ends has never helped a country. It sends too many dollars chasing too few of and the wrong sort of goods. It sends noise into the market signals, and creates massive collapse of information exchange from both top down (manufacturer -- jobber -- retailer -- costumer) and bottom up (customer -- retailer -- jobber -- manufacture). When that happens the Statists then say, see- capitalism (free enterprise) doesn't work. We propose Government-X command economy rule Y to fix you for good.
[quote=pevvania;37928679]Of course, ordinarily I oppose Keynesian economic "solutions" and believe governments botched the response after 2008. But what we're facing isn't the result of government intervention (at least not ours), price bubbles or bad market behavior, it's due to a global pandemic that threatens the livelihoods of billions of people. Surely it makes sense to give relief to the people who will be out of work or struggling to pay off their loans?[/quote]
Best served by fixing the root problem -- the problems are:
fraudulent banking practices protected by government,
>>>banks get to call their assets liabilities and their liabilities assets, (what other business could get away with that? -- not to mention how consulted that makes the economic signals)
>>>generally, they get to force someone to prove they do not need a loan in order to get that loan (avoiding risk, and creating ruinous habits) -- unless the government wants to tank housing then they sell you underwater.
>>>that loan is upon receipt of collateral (your stuff) which is then monetized as a fiduciary instrument and sold to the domestic and foreign Banksters/governments who trade them like game cards.
>>>defacto counterfeit (fiat) currency (Federal Reserve Notes masquerading as US Notes). Basically we circulate fungible IOU's to each other (other people's debt) as if it were real money. When authority tries to fix a monetary problem as if it were real money, it makes things worse -- because its not real money.
>>>hindrance of free and open markets masquerading as regulation. If regulation doesn't "make trade and commerce (economic exchange) more regular" i.e. not constipated, hindered, or allayed (open and free for anyone with a bauble and a shingle to participate) then it isn't what our Framers meant as regulation, but more like what Dewey (yeah, that Dewey) had in mind.
>>>unabashed interference with the interest rates to our own peril.
>>>idiot laws that protects the banks against the People like with what Congress did in changing the Bankruptcy laws so that banks could make predator loans that Students could never get out of. They would not have been able to do if they had to compete in the free market.
[quote=pevvania;37928679]If not, what's the right solution?[/quote]
Audit the Fed according to the Federal Reserve Act 1913 itself. If it has failed to do these three things:
1. Boom and Bust Cycles (bubbles);
2. Massive Bank Failures;
3. Inflation (the 1913 dollar is worth less than 2c on that dollar)
The Federal Reserve Bank must sell its assets and revert the monies (gold) of the people back to the US Treasury on par with its value of 1/35 troy ounce = $1.
They have failed, and did so spectacularly in 1929. But the Senate has been too cowardly to do the right thing. Today, there isn't enough gold on and in the planet for them to pay back the fraud they have committed against the securities of the United States.
[quote=pevvania;37928679](All that being said though, of course I realise how dangerous it is to a) blow up our debt at a time when it's already so high and b) increase spending without making cuts elsewhere. But my specific question is whether this can be considered a different crisis, as its origins are biological rather than economic?)[/quote]
The only thing that has stopped this house of cards from completely collapsing is the productivity and ingenuity of the American people (and flukes of history like Reagan, (Bill) Clinton turning fiscally conservative and Alan Greenspan, recently Trump eviscerating bureaucracy and over-regulation), and those things aren't going to happen forever. If we do this we go the way of hyperinflation, and we are toast. We do not have the time or resources to return our manufacturing back to the US in full productivity. The Fed Banksters know this, Mnuchin knows this, and the Chinese know this.
This is a good start:
https://mises.org/print/40768
If the Trumpicans can be shown that Mnuchin and these ideas are swamp creature tactics to tank Trump, the economy, and return to anti-business as usual, they can be persuaded.
If I am a trapeze artist and I want a safety net done right, I am not going to a government safety net provider (cheapest made and sold by the lowest bidder) or a bureaucrat safety net installer (someone who can't be fired for misfeasance or even malfeasance). I am going to find the best safety-net provider and installer from the freest most open market I can afford. It is my life that is on the line, and I can hold another private enterprise responsible. But, I cannot hold the government accountable because they print the money, and have the guys with the guns that can shoot me if (in their humble opinion) I get unruly to their dissatisfaction. They have no market incentive for my safety, only a vague sense of doing just enough to get re-elected and a generic sensibility so as to just do poorly enough to not get overthrown.
The worst words someone can hear from a supposedly beneficent government is, "I'm here to help you" and "You have no other choice."
Miencraft
First off, the U.S economy is not the freest most open market and to pretend so as to offer free market solutions to it is ridiculous, we must cut a lot of red tape, destroy the bureaucracy, have campaign finance reform, tax reform, and so much more; right now, there are many workers who can not afford to pay their rent and for basic necessities. Give them cash to they can spend in our markets and keep them from plummeting.
You can not hold a private enterprise vendor accountable yourself, except through a court of law provided to you by the government. Any other system of accountability would be bigger gun diplomacy or mob rule.
I think you fail to realize that we actually do elect the government and in theory, the government should be by, of and for the people. I agree that it is not that and for so many reasons, but dont just be against anything government at face value without actually taking the context and actual substance of an idea.
Jadentopian Order
I didn't say it was. Some of my ventures have been with Singapore and some other countries because the US is no longer the freest, but until Obamacare it had some of the best. E.g., when I was in Europe, my underwriting was through a Bavarian Health Cooperative because God forbid if I needed to be hospitalized in UK, I wanted to be afforded a private hospital. Do not even get me started on the sad state of Marseilles or Naples medical provision. Thankfully I was young and not so stupid as to get myself mangled when there.
In free and open markets the economic response is quicker and more direct than any government decree. When the government gets too despotic, grey and black markets will afford a solution to their moral vacuity. As you probably know Americans are some of the most opinionated and ruthless when it comes to how they treat their business relationships, and the role of the courts in aiding their fury has always been based on Common Law practice, not the pestiferous civil laws that clog up most European courts.
However when it comes to the despotic administrative state the abuses have to heap up until it becomes so intolerable that there is a Waco, or a Ruby Ridge, or a Bundy Ranch stand off. If Reagan had not been elected those WWII Vets that fought against the Nazi and Fascist forms of Socialism were ready to march on DC and hang the Communist necks of the asses that brought us Stagflation, and destroyed our economy, viz, Bo Gritz' call to arms, et al.
Government governs best that governs the least. Of, for, and by the people in the American sense means self-government. Just the opposite of letting some bureaucracy have rampant run of one's life decisions.
It is the middle of the night and I woke up to do something (i remember not), I hope I am being clear and precise but fear I am rambling. If I did not answer your question, I will take a look tomorrow evening.
Have a good night. Aux.
Auxorii
at the very least western governments should hold china responsible for CCP Virus
Pevvania
the ccp virus is what we should call covid-19
We should call it the Chinese Flu. It's their fault, they didn't deal with it properly when they could, instead they tried to keep us in the dark, and now Europe and America is in crisis because of their inaction. Shame on them. The Chinese Flu
Pevvania
The Chinese government did, yes. However, insisting on calling it the Chinese flu is just childish and distracting from the real issue of defeating this virus.
I know that the CCP has been awful and have been lying consistently about it, but you are invoking the ethnically of more than a billion people- and because of that, attacks against Asians have risen during this crisis.
Hate crimes in the U.S have risen against Asian-Americans, and its because of the troll rights insistence that we call it the Chinese flu. You are purporting stigma. The name of the virus is COVID-19, and anything else is just trying to stir the pot and is just another form of sensationalism and driving the divide further between the country(/world).
Rateria, Venomringo, Jadentopian Order
The catalog name is Sars-CoV-1, and I prefer it. Covid-19 is just fine as well. Colloquially Wuhan Flu is accurate also. China Flu is too vague, as there are many China flu strains.
I am going to push back on the hate crimes angle though. All crime is hate, but not all hate is crime. For example, truth is hateful to those who hate the truth. Power happy madmen are all too happy to use FUD, ill defined badthink and anomalous badfeel to assert domination (unquestioning obedience in conforming to the despot's will).
It is preferable to deal reasonably in responsible maturity and winsome grace to those with whom they disagree. But people are people and they need the freedom to grow, mature, learn, and change for the better.
Prejudice and bigotry are overcome by education, communion, and building bonds of friendship of the communities themselves. It is never overcome by sending the State with fines, and jail sentences, or worse with brown-shirt jack-booted goons to club ignoramuses into silent submission. The bigotry and prejudice with the latter only grows and festers until it erupts into domestic violence.
I never said that the state needed to be the one to overcome prejudice and bigotry in terms of speech (as obviously the state has and should be used to overcome bigotry in some cases). I also never said that all hate is crime, and you are assuming I hold a lot of political positions that I do not and are not actually responding to my actual point.
I actually said the exact same thing as you, we shouldnt be calling it the Chinese virus. Not only is it inaccurate, but in your words, people who are immature and use it hatefully need to grow, mature, learn, and change for the better. This is exactly my point.
Also, I dont understand how you can push back on my angle on hate crime. The use of calling coronavirus Chinese flu and blaming the Chinese for it has incited a lot of discrimination and actual hate crimes against Asian Americans in the past few weeks. Do you deny that or something? As there are plenty of examples in the past few days.
Yes, I heartily agree with you on being accurate. I don't like Chinese Flu because it is vague -- vaguely accurate thus not necessarily accurate.
But not because it is necessarily hateful (at best innacurate, and at worst prejudiced). It is certainly not racist in and of itself. That is the point of the push back (not out of hostility) but to open the topic to discussion.
Viewing this through the Cultural Marxist lens guarantees precipitation into Statist goonery and responding as through Hegelian political determinism guarantees the continuation of civil strife.
Yes, I question the veracity of those who will use the force of law to deprive people of their right to non-criminal self-expression for Statist societal control within a narrative that treats truth as an obstruction to their goals. The one's being hateful are generally those who do not like that someone else would dare not conform to their political correct worldview.
When did I view anything through a cultural Marxist lens? I said that the use of the inaccurate term Chinese flu has led to the rise of hate crimes against Asian Americans in the U.S. This is just a fact.
You are taking a lot of this conversation personally. I am not being personal, I was hoping to be conversational.
My point is that all crimes are hate/hateful. The term hate crime is oxymoronic. You first have to hate an individual enough to deprive a person of his life, liberty, or property.
Punching someone in the face is violence against a person's life, and the perpetrator has to hate that person enough to do it. The proximate cause is irrelevant. The ultimate cause is that the person volitionally made a decision to commit a criminal act. To separate some crimes over others with the vagaries of hate is disingenuous.
What is important is whether the person is responsible enough to control his feelings. If not he is a danger to himself and to others. The pathos expressed is important upon conviction in a court of law. It is prejudicial and bigoted act in and of itself thus hypocritical to determine that a hate crime is somehow worse than violating others by another excuse.
I didnt take anything personal. Im just saying that you say you disagree with my angle on hate crime when my angle is just that people should stop calling the coronavirus the Chinese Virus as it implicates an entire ethnicity. There has been a rise of attacks on Asian Americans due to the ignorance of people being told that China is to blame and so Asian people in the U.S are being targeted in hate crimes. As in, they are being physically attacked by people for being Asian in wake of this crisis. As such, we should not be using the term Chinese virus as not only is it inaccurate, but it is also giving ignorant people another reason to attack.
Hate crimes are defined differently as the motivation for the crime was hate. We have this type of crime defining in other crimes as well, such as aggravated assault or premeditated murder being different to domestic abuse and manslaughter. As such, spitting on someone for being Asian and saying that they are diseased is a different kind of crime than say, punching someone because of what they said to you.
I honestly cant understand how you dont think the motive for a crime is relevant to the case.
I guess the »Spanish« flu is now racist as well...
Hopefully some good comes out of this; perhaps this will be the death knell of globalism and open borders.
Narland
Only idiots blame Chinese people for the virus. It's perfectly acceptable to blame the Chinese government however. I haven't seen the data saying hate crimes have risen, but excuse me for being skeptical. Lefties have been calling literally everything racist for five years now. They've "boy who cried wolf'd" themselves. Not buying it.
Also, I've taken to calling it the "Kung Flu"
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland
No, because people didnt call it that though political motivations.
By calling it the Kung Flu you are implicating an entire ethnicity, and doing so has proven in the U.S these past few weeks has proven to be a bad idea, as it gives incentive to ignorant people to follow through with their ignorance by attacking Asian Americans. It confirms their ignorance that Asians are dirty and diseased. The problem is the virus, not the Chinese.
Just because you are unaware of the problem doesnt make it true. I dont like cultural marxism either, but that doesnt mean that racism can never exist in the United States, as it clearly does. I think you should educate yourself more on the topic as you said yourself, you havent looked into it at all. A rise of hate crime against Asian Americans in the past few weeks due to the epidemic is literally just a fact, and its not my problem if youre just intentionally ignorant of that because youre seeing it as a political issue where the right needs to push back against all the blue hair think that comes from the left, rather than what the coronavirus epidemic actually is.
I find it really funny that people are going out of their way to defend a misnomer that was solely created with out of political spite. I find it even funnier that these people are willfully ignoring that racially-motivated attacks have risen in this country, but they rather talk about the semantics of the term hate crime. It must be pretty easy to focus on definitions when you have never had to deal with someone swinging a baseball bat at you.
Auxorii, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
No, they called it that because people thought it originated in Spain, and this virus originated in China so it makes total sense
Narland
As Narland already explained, calling it the Chinese virus is actually pretty vague and if anything, Wuhan flu makes more sense if you are wanting to call flus by their region of origin.
That being said, you missed my entire point. People arent calling it the Chinese flu simply because it originated in China; they are calling it that out of political motivations and that in turn is leading to a rise in hate crimes against Asians, whether that is even your intention or not.
Rateria, Venomringo
I'd push back on my calling it the kung flu as implicating the Chinese people. I think any rational person who isn't going out of their way to find racism would assume that was a joke.
Me making a joke isn't contributing to hate crimes. People who commit hate crimes against asians would've done so regardless of what they saw on t.v. or heard me joke about in some bar.
I think the comparison between Covid and the Spanish Flu is rather apt actually. I mean, there's not really a way to measure it, but how do you know the people saying "Chinese virus" aren't simply naming it that because it came from China?
Miencraft, Narland, The United States Of Patriots
i wouldn't say willfully ignoring as much as reasonably suspicious. I generally don't trust media when researching these things considering they're blatantly partisan at this point.
Im not going out of my way to find racism, nor did I ever say that some people are calling it the Chinese flu simply because its from China with no political motivation (although I have yet to see one).
Hate crimes have gone up against Asian Americans since the coronavirus epidemic started, and just because you yourself havent taken the time to learn about these events and being willingly ignorant about them doesnt mean they arent happening; and whether you are intending a racist effect or not, by calling it the Chinese virus or Kung flu (which is just stupid and childish btw) you are implicating an entire ethnicity and giving a green light, even intentionally, to racists to attack. Ignorant people are seeing people blame China and because they are ignorant racists, they see any Asian person as diseased and a problem. Thats why its not good to continue calling it the Chinese flu or Kung flu, because it implicates an entire ethnicity and whether it is your intention or not it is a fact that attacks on Asians have risen because of the insistence on blaming China or making fun of Chinese culture by using childish terms like kung flu
Again, I'm not implicating an entire ethnicity. Do I really have to deconstruct the joke?
"Covid comes from China, Kung Fu comes from China, but... Wait for it, Fu actually sounds like flu, which is another term for an illness, which Covid is, funny right?"
And we have every damn right to blame China for this, meaning the Chinese government. They've lied about this for four months. It should be taken as a given it's not a reflection on Chinese people.
As for hate crimes going up. That seems like a good ol fashioned case of coorilation doesn't equal causation. Unless you can literally prove that the people commiting the hate crimes are doing so because of Covid, then you have no proof.
Narland
Yeah I really don't care about those so-called hate crimes; everything is a hate crime according to some
Narland
First off, its not even funny lol. Its just immature and makes you look stupid- and it also makes the right look incredibly ignorant and uncaring about cultural minorities, which is something we struggle with enough in the mainstream.
As I have said again and again and again and again, of course the Chinese government is to blame for COVID. That doesnt mean we should be calling it kung flu.
This is the willful ignorant part: you obviously have not even attempted to look up and see if attacks on Asian Americans have been increasing during the COVID epidemic. A lot of Asian Americans are getting attacked because they are constantly being seen by ignorant people as diseased and a threat because of the throwing around of the inaccurate and politically motivated term kung or Chinese flu. The literal facts and statistics show that yes, hate crimes against Asian Americans have risen due to the ignorance of people being green lighted and justified by people who insist on calling a virus by ethnic terms in order to further their political agenda.
Even if you are not intending to implicate an entire ethnicity, that is literally what you are doing.
Okay? Im not some. Actual, literal physical attacks and violence has been carried about against Asian Americans because of the inaccurate and again, politically motivated usage of Chinese/Kung flu. I actually do care about these hate crimes.
Everyone keeps putting words in my mouth as if I am some SJW burning Berkeley down. I have never advocated for the state to restrict free speech as Narland assumed I did, and nor do I view everything as a hate crime. Im just pointing out the fact that you are implicating an entire ethnicity whether intentionally or not and that has led to an increase of actual hate crime against Asians as ignorant and racist people see that;
and obviously and ironically, the very people using the term Kung flu and Chinese flu dont care to stop any of the hate crimes or even care that theyre going on. Instead, they just want to continue triggering liberals and brush them off because, well, its funny right? When that brushing off and tendency of the right to say that its not a big deal and continue purporting the ignorant and inaccurate narratives is exactly whats driving these attacks. You are not even listening to my actual points and putting two and two together.
Technically, it's not wilful ignorance because you're the one making the claim and therefore providing the sources is your responsibility.
Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Skaveria, Highway Eighty-Eight
Can you show an example where using the term 'Kung flu' actually incited violence against asians, (or just violence against asians in general)
Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with using the term where nobody got hurt because of it.
Narland, Rateria
Its willful ignorance because the only response to the rise in hate crime against Asians is well I havent seen it; it shows a lack of objective thinking and an apathy to whats going on.
There has been a general increase of hate crime against Asians throughout the United States, whether it was from the direct usage of kung flu or Chinese flu is irrelevant, as my entire point is that the willful ignorance of the right and insistence on not being accurate for the purpose of advancing a political point and because its funny fosters a negative and divisive culture in the United States and by implicating the entire ethnicity, it greenlights ignorant people to carry out violence because it makes coronavirus an issue of the Chinese, which whether your intention is that or not, it gives racists justification for their attacks. Its irresponsible and inaccurate to use those names, especially one as childish as kung flu.
If you just want proof that Asian American hate crimes are on the rise due to the corona virus epidemic, then I can provide that.
Okay, prove it
Heres just the first article I found after googling it. There are obviously many more:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wlns.com/news/health/coronavirus/hate-crimes-towards-asians-increase-during-coronavirus-pandemic/amp/
It's not irrelevant, it's literally the entire point of contention.
No, my point of contention comes after that-you know, the part of my quote that you cut off (literally at the comma):
Interesting, is calling the virus the "Chinese Virus" or the "Wuhan Chinese Virus" racist as well?
I never even explicitly called it racist. I said its inaccurate and gives ignorant people a greenlight to be racist and attack Asians- and its entirely for the point of a political one.
The main issue is that its inaccurate. Its not the Chinese virus, and the only people who are calling it that are people doing it for political reasons; and then, ignorant people then see this and because it literally implicates an entire ethnicity, it leads to a rise in hate crime. Its inaccurate and implicates an entire ethnicity which then greenlights racists.
It doesn't implicate them though. If the virus started in England, it'd be fair to call it the English virus and people would understand that it's reffering to the country of origin. Besides, if the Chinese government weren't so openly racist, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Your argument would be null if the Chinese population weren't 99.9% ethnically homogeneous.
Miencraft, Narland
I agree with the sentiment, but everyone and their grandma knows about the virus and where it came from. Telling the people where the virus came from helps people know is they need to test or quantine themselves to stop the spread and a clear message that it came from Wuhan is the only way to do this. It is very, very unfortunate that asian people are getting blamed and hurt by this, but telling people exactly where it came from early is the only way to stop the virus from killing and injuring more people.
First- it wouldnt be accurate to call it the Chinese flu as Narland previously explained just because the flu originated in China.
People also arent calling it the Chinese flu because it originated in China either; everyone who I have seen use it, including everyone on this RMB, uses it to enforce their political view that the Chinese government is to blame- or in your case, because you think its just funny to use their culture to describe the virus. which isnt specified at all in childish terms like the kung flu, nor do you care about being specific about the origin of the virus or its implications.
Its actually entirely inaccurate to call it the Chinese virus (as there are plenty of viruses and flus that originated in China) and no, people should not be more weary of Asian people or people from China because thats where the virus originated.
Of course anyone coming from a high risk area has to have precautions taken, whether theyre from China or Italy; my point is that by insisting on calling it the Chinese virus or other variants is leading to an increase in hate crime against Asians, and its especially concerning that there is no real issue amongst people who use the term as this. I dont understand why its so simple to just brush off well, yeah I guess it leads to discrimination against Asians but I mean it was originated in China right? when we could use a more accurate and the actual term for the virus that doesnt implicate an entire ethnicity or stir up political tensions for no reason.
You can't both have people in high risk areas take precaution and not reveal that the virus isn't heavily infecting China.
Auxorii care to respond?
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
No one is saying that we dont reveal that the virus is heavily infecting China?
Im saying that youre implicating an entire ethnicity by calling COVID-19 the chinese flu or kung flu and the irresponsibility and ignorance of using those words has led to a rise in hate crime against Asian Americans.
Of course, let everyone know where the high risk areas of COVID-19 are and take precautions necessary; that has nothing to do with calling it kung flu.
Lol okay big guy. If you actually quoted me I probably wouldve responded faster.
I think you got a point. 'Kung Flu' is as racist as the minimum wage
Pevvania
-ese -an -ian -ish -ean: denotes origin
1) Spanish Flu*
2) Hong Kong Flu
3) Zika Virus
4) Ebola
All denote origin, and all are commonly used names. CNN, NBC and the rest of the ChiCom media were calling it the "Chinese coronavirus" and the "Wuhan coronavirus" until the first week of March when President Trump said it. As is par the course, the rules are different for them, so now it's racist. Was it racist when the media went on their three-year campaign of condemnation against "Russian meddling"? They used the term "Russian" possibly millions of times in all of their corrupt coverage. Was it racist then too?
It is the Chinese coronavirus because they engineered this disaster through deliberate inaction. They have cost thousands of lives and trillions of dollars in economic damage. We love Chinese people, from Communist China, from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, everywhere. But the ChiCom government in Beijing is deeply evil and genocidal, and they need to be punished forcefully by the international community for essentially letting a bioweapon on the loose.
*Spanish Flu didn't originate in Spain but people mistakenly believed it did, as Spain didn't participate in World War 1 so it didn't censor information about the virus.
Narland, Kongeriget Island
You mean the misnomer created by CNN in January of 2020?
I'm immediately sceptical of any news reports on increases in hate crimes, because a lot of the time they turn out to be legitimate hoaxes, which of course is scarcely reported by the media because they have a narrative to spin. Can't let the facts get in the way! However, if there's been genuine racial animus towards Asian people, President Trump should forcefully condemn it, if he hasn't already. Still, it originated in China and is a global pandemic because of the CCP.
Narland, Kongeriget Island
Okay Kung Flu isn't cool, in my opinion, but I firmly believe the media manufactures much of this racism and resentment for their own political benefit. Remember how they've given actual racist thugs a platform, like the Charlottesville rally, KKK groups and Richard Spencer, and have been amplifying their ideas. Why report on these vile ideologies like they're on the same level as liberalism and conservatism if you want to discourage it?
The media has spun this racial "controversy" to distract the public from the fact that Communist China has plunged the world into recession and killed thousands of people. Don't let them play you.
Narland, Kongeriget Island
Its not a this or that. I blame the Communist Chinese government as well but that doesnt mean I want ignorant and inaccurate terms thrown around that put our Asian brothers and sisters in danger.
I see your point, but I feel like the media making such a big deal of it has amplified these problems even further, hence my points on how they started using the term. They want anything to hang around Trump's neck, anything at all. If it wasn't this it was going to be something else. If Trump cured cancer they'd try to impeach him for putting doctors out of work.
Narland
While at first I feared this crisis would hamstring Trump's reelection campaign, I think he can, and hopefully will, spin this to his advantage. Of course it sounds callous to treat the deaths of people in political terms, but we should face reality. His poll numbers are now solidly positive on his handling of the coronavirus. While the US economy is heading into a recession, which usually is a deathknell for any incumbent president, the only exception to the "it's the economy, stupid" rule of presidential politics is when there's an extraordinary national crisis. We went into recession in 2001 after 9/11, and Bush was re-elected. FDR had his 1937 recession that's much overlooked, and the private/consumer economy and living standards declined significantly during World War II.
A new poll even has Democrats' approval of Trump's coronavirus response up by 8 points, from 18% to 26%. If Trump steadies the course and handles this properly, unites the public against Communist China, casts Joe Biden as the Chinese puppet he is, and highlight Biden's age and frailty, Trump could be on the way to a 360 electoral votes+ landslide.
Narland
Where is Osmosis Jones when you need him?
Narland, Rateria, Miri Islands
Im not saying any of that and Im not the media. My points are perfectly valid and if you agree with them then just say so, instead of putting words in my mouth or assuming Im looking at it like the media or through some cultural Marxist lens. I support Trump and I havent even mentioned anything about him.
We were calling it the Coronavirus or COVID-19 til recently
Auxorii
The CCP virus, media hyperventilation, panic, and government overreach (closings) will plunge us into a recession or worse.
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
Also, can we take a moment to remember we were all talking about Epstein before this happened and now everyone forgot and the Chinese protesters are gone now.
Narland, Rateria
Coronavirus isnt real
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
I gotta get off facebook.. people with retail and gas station jobs are feeling empowered over being called "essential" workers during the pandemic. Essential doesn't equal skilled homie.
Now its an argument for minimum wage.. lefty logic kills.
Narland, Miri Islands
All I got from this is that youre saying workers should be submissive
Some were, others were TDSing over impeaching Trump for beating Hillary in an election. Three plus years of derangement. :)
But yeah, this did put a damper on the Chinese protesters crying out for Liberty from their despotic Communist masters. And most other relevant news in the world for that matter.
Rateria
Re: para 1. It does not such thing. It identifies the origin of the disease.
MERS (Middel East RS),
Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (being racist against mountain sheep are we?,
West Nile Virus,
Lyme's disease
etc., ad naseum (npi)
It has nothing to do with racism. This isn't about name calling. It is about the freedom to speak the truth.
It is also an opportunity to call out the Chicoms on their bungling an opportunity to be a mature part of the global community, but instead of informing the world in time, they tried to hide and silence those who tried to alert others, and when caught decided to blame US Army athletes on the virus.
Re: para 3. No motive, no crime -- that is the point. All crime is hate, but not all hate is a crime, except to petty despots (who which to control society without reason) and childish fools (who cannot reason).
Re: para 2. Words in and of themselves don't hurt anybody en se, again, unless one is a child (it hurts their feelings), or a fool (it hurts their exaggerated opinion about themselves), neither of which can be taken seriously without detriment. The child needs to mature into an adult capable of handling dissenting opinions, and the fool needs to learn to respect others, or go on meds, be institutionalized, or deal with their illness in a way that doesn't contaminate the rest of society with their truculence.
The point of governments recognizing freedom of speech is to allow a self-governing people without tyrants needing to step in to maintain order. People cannot mature and grow in responsibility if the state is telling them what and how to think about X under penalty of law. Despots do not want free-thinkers who can govern themselves and learn from each other as it makes their despotism irrelevant.
Hate is not a crime. Hating oneself, or others is not a crime. Saying that you hate yourself, or others is not a crime. Hating someone because they are within or without a certain hue of pigmentation is stupid but not a crime in a free and open society. In fact I want to know who hates me and why; so that it can be dealt with amiably and peaceably. If they hate me to the point of being intractable and unrelenting then I need to know that too. I do not want them seething and plotting in silence because the government is too morally stupid to let people be. If the state is that
Any act of volition to bring harm to someone's life, liberty, or property is hate in and of itself -- that is why all crime is hate. If I loose control because of hate it is a fit of passion -- it doesn't matter what the passion was --love, hate, jealously, vengeance -- it must all be dealt with with equal justice. To say that hate is more scary than vengeance disregards justice for arbitrary political agenda.
Unless there is direct physical harm wrought by the volition, such as people being trampled to death at a Who concert, or threat of harm such as brandishing a weapon which results in breach of peace. Stuff wrought by willful negligence or wanton disregard. You have to hate someone if not people in general enough to commit a crime (at least in traditional american jurisprudence).
Free countries, like America used to be, make a solid line to right to due process. It takes forensic sciences (actual meaning, not dumbed-down Hollywood meaning) demonstrated in a forum (court of law) to determine motive beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt. A hate filled sociopathic mob shouting " Hater!" at a lone dissenter speaking his opinion is not a conviction except in the maddest of jurisdictions. Despotic states do not care as long as the the apparatus remains in control -- they just bust some heads, or take from the wallet every time one of their playthings steps out of line to learn the rest of the proles their lesson. Actual justice is irrelevant to their brand of "adjverbial" justice, especially a Hegelian dialectic that hates Truth such as cultural Marxism.
Cudos to everyone posting, and all the salient points made. I wish I had been there when people were posting. Without freedom of speech there would be no dialogue and discussion, even if we disagree.
Considering someone has a Libertarian position on government assistance, meaning it should be abolished. Would them taking free government resources then be hypocritical for them? Using something doesn't necessarily mean one agrees with it's existence. If it doesn't go to them, it'll inevitably go to someone who actually wants to grow government instead of shrink it.
Narland
Or maybe, you know, earn more capital like everyone else instead of crying to the government asking them to take hostile action against employers. 🤷♂️
Narland
dude just like dont be poor
money printer go brrr
Narland, Muh Roads
Narland
Local man solves poverty by using this one easy trick!
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, Muh Roads, Auxorii, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
the real solution is to make sure we end these business shutdowns ASAP
Narland
Economists HATE him! Click this link to learn why!
Narland, Muh Roads
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
I just dont see why they shouldnt feel empowered. This crisis has shown how essential they are to the economy. Skill is entirely irrelevant, they could strike right now, and employers would be forced to give into whatever they want
Kongeriget Island
Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.
The thing is they aren't essential because a lot of people would be willing to take their place right now.
Narland, Muh Roads
Nota bene I work in retail as a weekend manager and I'm taking extra days now that I don't have school so I'm not prejudiced against retail workers and I know how fúcking draining the work can be with the insane work hours and irritating customers but the fact remains that most workers could be replaced in a second without a problem
Narland
And that is why capitalism is so alienating and makes people feel like theyre just a cog in a system, not allowing them to actually empower themselves as workers and actually take control of their own financial destiny.
No statistics, no evidence, nothing.
Also, I dont feel like anyone deserves poverty. Even if someone makes bad economic decisions, that doesnt mean they and their family should have to suffer and worry about their basic livelihood.
And just because you grew up in poverty, it doesnt give you a greater platform to speak on this. Im sure a lot of us have grown up in poverty and there are a lot of examples of people getting rich through no fault of their own as well as people becoming poor out of no fault of their own. Its obviously not as black and white as you see it.
Rateria, Jadentopian Order
Well retail actually provides one with amole opportunities to climb the ladder if you are willing to work hard enough
Narland
All dependent on your individual situation and on your bosses.
Also, the main point is alienation. Workers do not want to work in retail to begin with, let alone rise up in the industry.
Jadentopian Order
Yeah like everything else
Narland
People don't inherently "deserve" anything. I don't "deserve" to feel empowered. If I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, it's my responsibility to rectify that. If I spend all my money on meth and show up high and lose my job, it's MY fault.
I may have had unfortunate circumstances and a longer road to travel to succeed than someone else, but that's tough sh!t. It's my life, it's my responsibility. If I can't figure out a way to eat, I don't deserve to eat that day. I don't have a right to eat, be comfortable, feel safe, or even live.
The only things I have rights to are rights that protect me from you. So I have no right to food, but I DO have the right to shoot you if you try to take my food from me. I have the right to persue comfort and safety. I don't have the right to live, but I DO have the right to not be murdered.
I owe you nothing and you owe me nothing. If you passed me dying on the side of the road, you have no obligation to help me.
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland
If you complete high school, wait until marriage to have kids and secure any full-time job, you have a 95% chance of joining and staying in the middle class. If you follow none of these rules, your chances are less than 30%. So yes, a big determinant of poverty is life choices.
Narland
Well said. We as individuals are entitled to nothing.
Narland, Muh Roads, Aglonia
They should feel empowered, they're adults capable of work. No matter how easy or difficult the workload. My point is the twisted logic that they feel that they should get engineer wages for selling snickers bars because their jobs are so "essential". Sure, we as a society need someone to do some of these jobs, but there are unemployed people willing to do the work for the wages the complainers are earning now who would be 100 percent more grateful, I guarantee it.
Pevvania, Narland, Kongeriget Island, Aglonia
The catch-22 of Statism. You cannot see the fraud and inefficiency only the diminished product as the statistical sample of one (which is then touted as a success.) So the State helps one person at the cost of 12c on the dollar to the detriment of 8 other people (who must pay for the diminished productivity through taxation that they won't see); whereas the public (the People) can do it better out of their love of others, more efficiently, and in tactical response faster than any crystallized bureaucracy with a one size fits all, square peg fit in round hole mentality.
Which one is it?
That doesn't always make it fair
^^^ Yes. Or go out and make your job, go into business for yourself, make your own way. Much more satisfying.
Muh Roads
depends on the poverty. if it is a poverty of taking responsibility for oneself, it is just and deserved.
If it is because of a debilitation of some sort, then there is no shame -- poverty in 21st Century America still gets you electricity, hot and cold running water, a cell phone, a local library with internet, and a county hospital emergency room. We are much better off than emperors of 2 centuries ago. Social networking with a church/synagogue, education foundation, relief society, benevolence society (of all stripes) gives access to the things only dreamt of in fairy tales for those in the 19th century.
If you are indigent in America, move to where there are jobs. Move to where there are people outside of the Cultural Marxist mindset that can teach you to fish instead of taking the fish from someone else to give you. If you do not like being a mere employee, start your own business. Move to a place where you can make jobs.
The feeling of power is a dopamine rush that makes petty despots out of even those with the best of intentions. Who the hell wants to feel "empowered" when they can be productive and free to their own self-satisfaction? The best thing someone can do is free others from an inflated sense of their self-importance out of proportion to the life's of others. Narcisism, arrogance, and inflated self-esteem destroy the ability of people to find their own serenity and level of benevolence to offer others. A well adjusted sense of one's own self-worth, and being given the tools for their own lawful self-interest to their own benefit, FREEly (free(ly) as in freedom, not free other people's stuff), make for a more productive and content society than creating ingrates by inciting envy, covetousness, and imposing arbitrary class distinctions yelling "Empowerment!" for some guilt-manipulator's political ambition.
Muh Roads
Shouts out an Amen.
Caveat though, I would because my Lord regards it such that in that case you are my neighbor. As a free person, in a free society it is my responsibility (as a Christian) to help you if able, or find someone who can (as that is the very least that I would want done for me). I would call 911 (US emergency response) at the very least if you insisted that I go away, and take you to a hospital in my farm truck without asking. I would (and have) even stuck around to fill out the damned police reports.
***anecdote alert***
I was actually threatened with a citation because I took a bloody concussed man wandering the fields to the hospital (the next county over-- it was closer). The "police" man (I usually respect Peace Officers) but this guy needed to be sweeping streets, not carrying a badge and gun; said that I should have left him for the police to find so they could "assess the situation." The man didn' t know who or where he was. Doctors say he minutes from death when he arrived. His car had flipped into a small ravine about 5 miles over (on a non intersecting road) in someone else's plot. I would have never found the car, and and he would have died in my care or in the custody of a "police" officer "assessing the situation."
Please, if you ever find me a confused, bloodied, and battered mess meandering the countryside babbling incoherently, do not take me to the police, take me to the hospital first. Thank you.
***end anecdote alert***
Rateria
Its not as simple as, if you are wrongd, then its up to you to right it. Obviously not, as thats why we have law enforcement officers, a court system, consumer and worker protections, etcetera.
I dont agree with this premise. As a Christian, I firmly believe in people being deserving of dignity and I definitely do not believe in turning a blind eye to the hungry in any scenario, especially how you put it:
If you can't figure out a way to eat, you don't deserve to eat that day.
Regardless over whether thats now nature works, I think that human society is well advanced enough that we can afford to provide basic safety nets for our brothers and sisters.
You talk about the only thing we all have are rights, but thats simply not true. As you acknowledged earlier, some are born into wealth and some into poverty. While I agree that probably anyone can work hard enough to pay the bills in the U.S, I believe that that work is alienating and is just making that person another cog in the system. Essentially, a slave to their wages- where life is not about the great produces of capitalism that only few get to experience, but for most workers, life is living paycheck to paycheck. Just because they are getting by does not make it fulfilling. This is my entire point.
I disagree with the obligation aspect in a general way. We all pay taxes and there is a social contract within our society that as we pay into the state, the state then in turn provides us with things.
Rateria
Well there's a bit of a dichotomy there. Philosophically speaking, I do firmly believe human being have no inherent right to any good or service. That being said, obviously I help those in need, within reason, and I'd like to think others would help me.
The problem is that I don't want that help to be mandated. I'd rather it come out of genuine kindness and concern than forced taxation.
My comment about "If you can't figure out a way to eat, you don't deserve to eat that day. was to make a point. You deserve nothing other than what you produce or traded your labor for. There is no inherent right to food. There's a right to food you've aquired through labor, hell even charity. I don't snub my nose at beggars. If I give them money, that is THEIR money now. Begging is a perfectly moral way to make money. You've initiated no force. If you're presenting as filthy, but you're really fine and just don't wanna work, that borders on fraud in my mind, but regardless, I didn't ask: "Hey are you actually homeless?" That's my fault.
My opinion on inherent rights may come partially from my Atheism. I don't have a religious connection to the ideas of inherent dignity that you do, although I'd certainly like everyone to have it.
I'd ask if you could separate your religion from your philosophy though. If you operate with a religious worldview in your personal life, that's cool, but on matters of politics, appeals to religion are trouble.
Rateria
II Thessalonians 3:8-12, 13-15
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
^^^ This is the Christian thing to do according to Scripture. It is unChristian to do otherwise.
The government isn't here to give you things. The government can only distribute other people's stuff. Even if the state owns everything (the executor of the capital -- how ironic that), the government still only distributes other people's stuff held in trust (through the government operatives, bureaucrats as guardian ad litem). Two unnecessary parties (little p -- state and government) of nonstanding impairing the obligation of contract of parties of the first, second, and third parts (sellers, buyers, and those who help the buyer and seller transact) Such interference by the aforementioned is artificial and unnatural, i.e., unlawful and illegitimate), and by the latter just/right and good.
What little (external) government there is and ought be to maintain what few state functions the People are too immature, indolent, or morally incapable of doing in and of themselves as individuals, families, communities, and public institutions of the societal fabric of the body politic. Once they as a society do become mature, responsible and endevouring enough, it is their duty to take the responsibility back of those functions from the state, which is outside of its nature to accomplish beneficently. In a Christian nation, or in America's case a nation full of Christians, bureaucracy and government increases the worse the People of that generation are, and decrease the better the People of that generation are. This is to the glory of God, and not for the glory of Man (the people) or Caesar (the state).
Everything else can be accomplished apart from state interference to do through their own effort, ingenuity, and aspirations as free people operating freely in a free society with all of their God given rights, privileges and immunities intact. Render to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. If Ceasar owns the gold, give it back to him and make your own.
Caesar's purpose is to kill people, and break things (capital punishment, and stopping force and fraud -- actual criminals, those who wrongly take the life, liberty and property of others) as a minister of God. Caesar failed, nuff said about the Beast.
If someone is born into povety the most God glorifying thing a person can to is to give him the dignity and self-respect to work his way to economic freedom, giving him every opportunity in a free and open market to do so, as God commanded of Adam in Genesis.
Im not talking about people unwilling to work. Thats a whole separate issue. Im talking about workers.
You had me till the last verse, er sentence. :) Man is a religious creature by nature. Even the atheist has to make a god out of himself, his opinions or his pleasures. This is what makes Leftists so dangerous. Their politics is their religion. They deny the latter and worship the former -- anyone who disagrees is the heretic.
So am I --both productive workers and idle workers
My dude, feeling empowered because the government lets you keep your job isn't something to feel empowered about. Being a capable adult is. Does that clear things up?
Your right, it doesn't make it fair. People who would appreciate the wages aren't getting them because some ungrateful person is getting paid instead.
Narland, Kongeriget Island, Wheatonleks
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.