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Region: Libertatem

History

Sir, while I admire your perseverance and resolve, I am growing quite tiresome of your taunting. I welcome civil debate, but when you have a small army of trolls with an endless supply of ad hominems and flawed logic here with the sole purpose of spamming and cluttering our RMB, the charm wears quickly.

However cute you think your being "sticking it to the man" and whatnot, you are really not. I have asked kindly and I personally have not provoked any of you, and discourage it from any of my colleagues, yet here you still are obnoxiously making a nuisance of yourself.

No one is going to make you leave, we are a free region. But please take whatever quarrel you have with us to action in the proper outlets. I know that you all can be mature, as pointed out by yourself earlier you are older than fourteen. This is commendable, it would be even better if you acted like it.

This is past debate. You ALL stopped debating a long time ago. This is just petty squabbling and a few big egos ramming into each other. If you all would like to actually debate, find a platform to do it on and actually debate, this is just childish.

I know that we can all be big boys, so I would appreciate it if we all started doing that now.

Miencraft, Kings Island

Humpheria In Libertatem wrote:This is past debate. You ALL stopped debating a long time ago. This is just petty squabbling and a few big egos ramming into each other. If you all would like to actually debate, find a platform to do it on and actually debate, this is just childish.

it'd be interesting to have an actual debate, but that'd require y'all to find better sources than your Bulgarian friends when it comes to the Holodomor genocide question.

but since there's no point in it continuing, I'll stop posting and ask that Red Fleet sailors follow suit.

KPA is an entirely separate group, so I can't tell them what to do.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:it'd be interesting to have an actual debate, but that'd require y'all to find better sources than your Bulgarian friends when it comes to the Holodomor genocide question.

but since there's no point in it continuing, I'll stop posting and ask that Red Fleet sailors follow suit.

KPA is an entirely separate group, so I can't tell them what to do.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate your maturity. If you would like for an actual debate to be attempted, please contact my office and I'll see what can be done.

Miencraft

Pev, I respect your willingness to fight the good fight. It's noble. But I swear to St. Baloney... if you try and continue this debate with these yay-hoos... I'm gonna be quite... Unsettled... I think I speak for a lot of people when I say, "The debate is over." Can we please go back to trying to run this region?

Pevvania wrote:I'll read Capital if you read Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Economics%20in%20One%20Lesson_2.pdf

Ugh no don't not worth it

Pevvania

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:it'd be interesting to have an actual debate, but that'd require y'all to find better sources than your Bulgarian friends when it comes to the Holodomor genocide question.

but since there's no point in it continuing, I'll stop posting and ask that Red Fleet sailors follow suit.

KPA is an entirely separate group, so I can't tell them what to do.

Thank you. I think the 'debate' should have ended long ago.

"Holodomor? There's no evidence it was intentional"

"Holocaust? There's no evidence there were gas chambers"

Miencraft, Kings Island, Hallo Island

Apparently, genocide and mass murder is only OK if Daddy Stalin did it.

Hallo Island

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:...it's simple economics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mdzFhG6UM

Pevvania wrote:"Holodomor? There's no evidence it was intentional"

"Holocaust? There's no evidence there were gas chambers"

"I don't know anything about history, but I'm going to puke words about history all over a video game anyway."

Equating people who challenge the Cold War propaganda that the Holodomor was intentional with Holocaust deniers is putrid. Shame on you.

Just to be clear, the Holodomor was absolutely intentional. Ukrainian authorities had warned of a famine as far back as 1930 (1), but they were ignored and no preventative action was taken. After a bad harvest in 1932, the Soviet Union introduced a rationing system, and gradually cut back rations to urban areas of Ukraine (2), triggering mass starvation, cannibalism and death. Dr. Michael Ellman of the University of Amsterdam points claims that three factors indicate that the Holodomor was intentional and used by the Stalin regime to crush Ukrainian nationalism: the USSR exported 1.8 million tonnes of grain during the famine, which could have fed over five million people for a year; migration from famine-affected areas was restricted, leading to hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths; and the attitude of the Stalin regime was very much that the victims of the famine were "idlers", "thieves" and "counter-revolutionaries". (3) According to Steven Rosefielde, "Grain supplies were sufficient to sustain everyone if properly distributed. People died mostly of terror-starvation (excess grain exports, seizure of edibles from the starving, state refusal to provide emergency relief, bans on outmigration, and forced deportation to food-deficit locales), not poor harvests and routine administrative bungling." (4)

If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, then why were rations cut and food and grain diverted away from famine-afflicted areas? If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, why did Stalin export several million tonnes of grain during the famine? If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, why did Stalin prevent people from moving out of famine-afflicted areas? If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, why was edible food seized from the homes of the starving? If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, why did the Stalin regime refuse foreign aid?

The real academic debate is not whether the Holodomor was intentional. This question has been settled within the historiographical community. The debate lies in whether the Holodomor is genocide as defined by the UN or an 'ordinary' mass murder.

Regardless, denying the existence of the Holodomor for political reasons is pretty freaking disgusting. No, it's not putrid; you're in exactly the same league as Holocaust deniers.

1- Dawood, M; Mitra A (December 2012). "Hidden agendas and hidden illness". Diversity and Equality in Health and Care 9 (4): 297–8.

2- Davies, Robert W.; Wheatcroft, Stephen G. (2010). The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1931–1933. Houndmills: Palgrave Macmillan.

3- http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/soviet/famine/ellman.pdf

4- Rosefielde, S. Red Holocaust

Liberosia

This is the kind of crap that comes from central planning. When all the power is concentrated into a single institution, it is inevitably hijacked by maniacs with delusions of grandeur. The problem with central planning is that it puts too much trust into the hands of the planners. There are no checks and balances to make sure that the planners do not abuse their power. Because of this, centralised control often leads to disaster, either through poor policies or state violence. A pluralist society, where power is not concentrated but instead spread across thousands of competing centres of power, disperses power widely so there is a marketplace for ideas. A voluntaryist society is the most pluralist, in my opinion, since it places corporations, workers, consumers, the self-employed, the unemployed and so forth on a relatively level playing field that cannot be manipulated by the state to benefit one group or the other. In our current system of global corporatism, favoured unions and corporations have amplified power as a result of government cronyism. Under anarcho-capitalism, corporations rise and fall truly based on the support of consumers, and workers can bargain with employers either individually or collectively without using forces, while said employers can freely compete without being suppressed by larger corporations who have contacts in the government.

This all depends, of course, on protecting freedom within an anarchist society. I think this heavily depends on educating the populace about libertarian ideals.

Pevvania wrote:The real academic debate is not whether the Holodomor was intentional. This question has been settled within the historiographical community.

this isn't true, at all, though. and i'm really glad you cited Davies & Wheatcroft so I can throw this in your face:

Davies And Wheatcroft wrote:In a further contribution to the discussion, Hiroaki Kuromiya judiciously summarises his provisional conclusions about various strands of these Ukrainian, Russian, and international debates:

"Although Stalin intentionally let starving people die, it is unlikely that he intentionally caused the famine to kill millions of people. It is also unlikely that Stalin used famine as a cheap alternative to deportation. True, the famine affected Ukraine severely; true, too, that Stalin distrusted the Ukrainian peasants and Ukrainian nationalists. Yet not enough evidence exists to show that Stalin engineered the famine to punish specifically the ethnic Ukrainians. The famine did not take place in an international political vacuum. The sharp rise in the foreign threat was likely to have been an important aggravating factor."

These debates may be followed in the journal Europe-Asia Studies.

(Vol. 57 (2005), 823–41 (Ellman), vol. 58 (2006), 625–33 (Davies and Wheatcroft), 973–84 (Tauger), vol. 59 (2007), 663–93 (Ellman), 847–68 (Wheatcroft), vol. 60 (2008), 663–75 (Kuromiya), and vol. 61 (2009), 505–18 (D. R. Marples).)

what's that? the debate actually says that "not enough evidence exists to show that Stalin engineer the famine to punish specifically the ethnic Ukrainians"? but that undermines your whole entire point!!!

since you think Davies & Wheatcroft are credible, you should agree with Davies and Wheatcroft, then, when they also say this:

Davies And Wheatcroft wrote:In our own work we, like V. P. Kozlov, have found no evidence that the Soviet authorities undertook a programme of genocide against Ukraine.

(Preface to Revised Edition, xiv)

also since you brought up "Red Holocaust" I figured this was appropriate: http://i.imgur.com/UgkOJqg.png

Pevvania wrote:I have cited every claim I've made with evidence. You have not been able to counter a single one of my points. I urge you that instead of rejecting what we say, think about it with an open mind. You might learn something.

Pev, I am beginning to doubt you even read my posts, the one about nature (the meme) somehow stealing the value of your labour, makes no sense what so ever, I even explained why.

Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.

Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.

Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.

Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.

I will refrain from making new arguments, even when I see things that make me want to pull my hair out.

Yes, even things as non-nonsensical as nature is oppressive memes, (starting now).

Pevvania wrote:If the Holodomor wasn't intentional, then why were rations cut and food and grain diverted away from famine-afflicted areas?

Oh no, now, oh my god, all I can do is slam my face against a wall now.......

Pevvania wrote:Pol Pot was not supported by the US

Pangaean Brigade wrote:

Nope, you don't read my posts.

Ok, let's clear this up. "Holodomor" in Ukrainian literally means "extermination by hunger". Last I checked, the word "extermination" doesn't imply an accident. It is described by the United Nations, the European Parliament, and the majority of civilized nations as a "man made genocide".

Kings Island

Ukrainian Historian Stanislav Kulchytsky said:

"The way Stalin dealt with the Ukrainian countryside lifted the events out of the category of merely a famine and into the realm of genocide. In the fall of 1932, on orders from Moscow, government troops came to villages requisitioning grain to meet Stalin’s unrealistic quotas. At gunpoint they took away grain, even when peasants did not have enough for themselves. Those peasants who had no grain were deprived of other food stocks. Those who resisted were shot. Then a Jan. 22nd, 1933 directive from Stalin and Molotov sealed off Ukrainian borders to prevent famished peasants from escaping"

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:I remember being 14. It was pretty neat!

You mean just yesterday? Happy birthday lad! Soon you'll grow up and get a fine job working for a capitalist. You'll put in the hours, work hard, and succeed in life. Or maybe you wont. It's your choice.

Happy treason day 'merican dudes!

Muh Roads wrote:Happy treason day 'merican dudes!

I am lacking in bombs and this makes me sad.

PEV!!! STOP!!! I'm sick of having our RMB spammed by these guys!!! If you get off to trolling people, that's fine, just don't do it here! If you stop fighting with them, they'll leave! Geez...

according to margaret thatcher they only supported the more moderate elements of the khmer rouge, which is so much better.

spoilers: it actually wasn't and they still just wanted to "just chop people up" in the words of the SAS soldiers sent to train them

Alyakia wrote:according to margaret thatcher they only supported the more moderate elements of the khmer rouge, which is so much better.

spoilers: it actually wasn't and they still just wanted to "just chop people up" in the words of the SAS soldiers sent to train them

They may have been moderate for the Khmer Rouge, which is still pretty damn radical.

Hallo Island wrote:Ok, let's clear this up. "Holodomor" in Ukrainian literally means "extermination by hunger". Last I checked, the word "extermination" doesn't imply an accident. It is described by the United Nations, the European Parliament, and the majority of civilized nations as a "man made genocide".

hey sweet racism buddy. since you can't say "majority of nations" you say "majority of civilized nations" because Africa and Asia are full of brute savages! classy with a kkk, that's hallo island!

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:hey sweet racism buddy. since you can't say "majority of nations" you say "majority of civilized nations" because Africa and Asia are full of brute savages! classy with a kkk, that's hallo island!

It's funny because you're the only one bringing Africa and Asia into this.

Miencraft wrote:It's funny because you're the only one bringing Africa and Asia into this.

i'm the real racist!!!!!

but if you look at the nations that consider the 1933 famine a genocide, not a single nation in Africa or Asia agrees. they must be uncivilized, right? otherwise Hallo wouldn't be able to say that "a majority of civilized nations" agrees that it was a genocide.

http://i.imgur.com/UVsRi95.png

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:i'm the real racist!!!!!

but if you look at the nations that consider the 1933 famine a genocide, not a single nation in Africa or Asia agrees. they must be uncivilized, right? otherwise Hallo wouldn't be able to say that "a majority of civilized nations" agrees that it was a genocide.

http://i.imgur.com/UVsRi95.png

Except for Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and numerous African countries which haven't adopted backwards socialists policie. They're uncivilized because of there government and ideology.

Ah, the race card. Great for shutting down arguments!

i mean not even Israel, the only state in the world that was created out of a response to genocide, doesn't agree that the 1933 famine was one. but since the majority of the world doesn't believe that the famine was a genocide, let's rewrite the rules so we can exclude a lot of them and say a majority of "civilized nations" instead.

23 out of 196 = a majority, to Hallo Island

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:23 out of 196 = a majority, to Hallo Island

Hallo apparently has his own unique (and quite creative) way of interpreting statistics.

Hallo Island wrote:It is described by the United Nations, the European Parliament ... as a "man made genocide".

you might also want to read Wikipedia more closely next time:

Wikipedia wrote:A number of international organizations adopted resolutions recognizing Holodomor as tragedy or crime against humanity but did not use the word "genocide":

[list][*]European Parliament

[*]General Assembly of the United Nations[/list]

...

I'm just wondering why you think nations in Africa and Asia would have even cared about the Holomodor, considering that many of them had hunger problems (and despots) of their own to deal with.

Miencraft, Kings Island

Where did America's missing millions go? Holodomor Lessons

http://rt.com/news/prime-time/where-did-americas-missing-millions-go-holodomor-lessons/

Condealism wrote:I'm just wondering why you think nations in Africa and Asia would have even cared about the Holomodor, considering that many of them had hunger problems (and despots) of their own to deal with.

a majority of African nations aren't suffering from major food scarcity though and neither are most Asian nations, though (and they weren't in 2003 when there was a big push to recognize the famine as a genocide)? you're just pulling this out of your ass to find an excuse that'll stick.

but they must all be just too tuckered out from talking about non-existent emergencies in their own nation to worry about anything else!

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:you might also want to read Wikipedia more closely next time:

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:you might also want to read Wikipedia more closely next time:

Oh, and I suppose a crime against humanity is much better.

Also, the number would be higher than 23, because more than one nation is in the UN and European Parliament. Also would like to just remind you of this.

Hallo Island wrote:Ukrainian Historian Stanislav Kulchytsky said:

"The way Stalin dealt with the Ukrainian countryside lifted the events out of the category of merely a famine and into the realm of genocide. In the fall of 1932, on orders from Moscow, government troops came to villages requisitioning grain to meet Stalin’s unrealistic quotas. At gunpoint they took away grain, even when peasants did not have enough for themselves. Those peasants who had no grain were deprived of other food stocks. Those who resisted were shot. Then a Jan. 22nd, 1933 directive from Stalin and Molotov sealed off Ukrainian borders to prevent famished peasants from escaping"

Hallo Island wrote:Oh, and I suppose a crime against humanity is much better.

Also, the number would be higher than 23, because more than one nation is in the UN and European Parliament.

you can find the actual resolutions adopted by the European Parliament and UN. I've read the UN resolution; it just calls the famine a "tragedy" -- not even a "crime against humanity", so no, the number is not higher than 23. you specifically said "genocide" - you don't get to change that when you find out that the facts don't fit the argument you hastily slapped together.

you can't say, as you did, that

Hallo Island wrote:It is described by the United Nations, the European Parliament, and the majority of civilized nations as a "man made genocide".

when it is only described by 23 out of 196 nations as a "genocide", and the UN and EP have not called it a genocide at all. this isn't difficult stuff. you're arguing based on lies and then moving the goalposts when you're called out.

Famine in Niger - the horror of capitalism

http://www.marxist.com/famine-niger-horror-capitalism241005.htm

Do we have to do this again? Are just not going to respond to this?

Hallo Island wrote:Ukrainian Historian Stanislav Kulchytsky said:

"The way Stalin dealt with the Ukrainian countryside lifted the events out of the category of merely a famine and into the realm of genocide. In the fall of 1932, on orders from Moscow, government troops came to villages requisitioning grain to meet Stalin’s unrealistic quotas. At gunpoint they took away grain, even when peasants did not have enough for themselves. Those peasants who had no grain were deprived of other food stocks. Those who resisted were shot. Then a Jan. 22nd, 1933 directive from Stalin and Molotov sealed off Ukrainian borders to prevent famished peasants from escaping"

hmm it is almost like genocide and recognition of such is in fact a very political thing

Hallo Island wrote:Do we have to do this again? Are just not going to respond to this?

"uh oh! I don't have a good response to being called out on my lies, so I'm going to hide behind a quote instead!"

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:a majority of African nations aren't suffering from major food scarcity though and neither are most Asian nations, though (and they weren't in 2003 when there was a big push to recognize the famine as a genocide)? you're just pulling this out of your ass to find an excuse that'll stick.

but they must all be just too tuckered out from talking about non-existent emergencies in their own nation to worry about anything else!

Had. Past tense. Besides, my point was more that they didn't associate mass starvation with genocide, as opposed to the Western world, which did.

And didn't you agree to stop posting?

Pevvania wrote:"Holodomor? There's no evidence it was intentional"

"Holocaust? There's no evidence there were gas chambers"

And you - why did you do that? Our RMB was quiet.

Condealism wrote:Had. Past tense. Besides, my point was more that they didn't associate mass starvation with genocide, as opposed to the Western world, which did.

and maybe they believed, like the majority of the world and the actual consensus among most historians, that the 1933 famine was not an intentional killing?

Condealism wrote:And didn't you agree to stop posting?

that was before I was compared to Holocaust deniers. until I get an apology from Pevv, which I don't see happening, there's open season on this RMB as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:and maybe they believed, like the majority of the world and the actual consensus among most historians, that the 1933 famine was not an intentional killing?

that was before I was compared to Holocaust deniers. until I get an apology from Pevv, which I don't see happening, there's open season on this RMB as far as I'm concerned.

Except, that's completely false, there isn't a consensus.

Hallo Island wrote:Except, that's completely false, there isn't a consensus.

okay, you're right. Davies, Wheatcroft, Tauger, etc. - they're all wrong. I am now going to believe the guy who cited his Bulgarian friend as a source and misread Wikipedia over the scholars who have spent years of their lives poring over all of the data and debating in peer-reviewed journals.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:okay, you're right. Davies, Wheatcroft, Tauger, etc. - they're all wrong. I am now going to believe the guy who cited his Bulgarian friend as a source and misread Wikipedia over the scholars who have spent years of their lives poring over all of the data and debating in peer-reviewed journals.

I'm going to go ahead and say that someone who has been taught about communism since he was in elementary school knows more about it than you, but okay.

Hallo Island wrote:Except, that's completely false, there isn't a consensus.

Ok, whatever...you win.

Hallo Island wrote:I'm going to go ahead and say that someone who has been taught about communism since he was in elementary school knows more about it than you, but okay.

Lol. That's an argument?

Hallo Island wrote:I'm going to go ahead and say that someone who has been taught about communism since he was in elementary school knows more about it than you, but okay.

"someone who has been taught to hate communism by a post-Soviet curriculum knows more than someone who has read actual books on the topic"

you are a farce

Hallo Island wrote:I'm going to go ahead and say that someone who has been taught about communism since he was in elementary school knows more about it than you, but okay.

i would love for you to try that argument with Mark Tauger. you can email him right here: mtauger@wvu.edu

please post his response

Hallo Island wrote:I'm going to go ahead and say that someone who has been taught about communism since he was in elementary school knows more about it than you, but okay.

You're a real funny guy, actually. :P

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:"someone who has been taught to hate communism by a post-Soviet curriculum knows more than someone who has read actual books on the topic"

you are a farce

He hates communism because it ruins lives. His paternal grandfather was forced to murder, and his maternal grandfather was sent to a forced labor camp for being drunk.

Hallo Island wrote:He hates communism because it ruins lives. His paternal grandfather was forced to murder, and his maternal grandfather was sent to a forced labor camp for being drunk.

capitalism ruins lives, too, but I don't hear you complaining about that.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:i would love for you to try that argument with Mark Tauger. you can email him right here: mtauger@wvu.edu

please post his response

I'll pass on Professor Genocide Sympathizer.

Hallo Island wrote:I'll pass on Professor Genocide Sympathizer.

nice ad hominem bud!!!

even Robert Conquest doesn't agree that it was intentional.

you know who did, though? fascist propagandists!

http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:nice ad hominem bud!!!

even Robert Conquest doesn't agree that it was intentional.

you know who did, though? fascist propagandists!

http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf

Don't pull the fascist card when concetration camps were basically knock offs of your precious gulags.

Hallo Island wrote:Don't pull the fascist card when concetration camps were basically knock offs of your precious gulags.

"don't present facts when I can pull claims that have no basis in fact directly from my own asshole!!!"

I hate to be that guy, but will you commies kindly get the f*ck out?

Kings Island, Hallo Island

Right-Winged Nation wrote: I hate to be that guy, but will you commies kindly get the f*ck out?

no.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:"don't present facts when I can pull claims that have no basis in fact directly from my own asshole!!!"

Rudolf Höss, organizer of many death camps said:

"The Reich Security Head Office issued to the commandants a full collection of reports concerning the Russian concentration camps. These described in great detail the conditions in, and organization of, the Russian camps, as supplied by former prisoners who had managed to escape. Great emphasis was placed on the fact that the Russians, by their massive employment of forced labor, had destroyed whole peoples."

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:until I get an apology from Pevv, which I don't see happening, there's open season on this RMB as far as I'm concerned.

...You're waiting for an apology? You're kidding, right? I thought you were trying to be mature, or at least appear mature.

Miencraft

Hey, why don't we just not allow embassy posting?

Guys.

Remember how there was an agreement to cut out this nonsense?

Maybe we should all just relax and stop this nonsense, because obviously it's not going to get anywhere beyond name-calling at this point.

Condealism

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:no.

Listen we get it you are red enough

Also I like it when several posts to that effect show up right as I click "lodge message".

Hallo Island wrote:Hey, why don't we just not allow embassy posting?

What are we, savages?

Miencraft wrote:Guys.

Remember how there was an agreement to cut out this nonsense?

Maybe we should all just relax and stop this nonsense, because obviously it's not going to get anywhere beyond name-calling at this point.

I remember that. it was pretty neat. and then Pevvania had to be petty and get in a Nazi joke at our expense.

Turn off embassy posting or ban us from the region if you want it to stop.

Condealism wrote:What are we, savages?

your words.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:I remember that. it was pretty neat. and then Pevvania had to be petty and get in a Nazi joke at our expense.

Turn off embassy posting or ban us from the region if you want it to stop.

Well perhaps if you would quit trolling and denying historical fact

Miencraft, Hallo Island

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Well perhaps if you would quit trolling and denying historical fact

I don't deny historical fact. the 1933 famine happened.

y'all are sitting here pretending that it was intentional when consensus among historians, even the most rabidly anti-Soviet among them (that'd be Conquest) is that the famine was not intentional.

Hallo Island wrote:He hates communism because it ruins lives. His paternal grandfather was forced to murder, and his maternal grandfather was sent to a forced labor camp for being drunk.

>communist state forces man to kill

>communism's fault

>capitalist state forces man to kill

>not capitalism's fault

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:I don't deny historical fact. the 1933 famine happened.

y'all are sitting here pretending that it was intentional when consensus among historians, even the most rabidly anti-Soviet among them (that'd be Conquest) is that the famine was not intentional.

No one denies the famine, we are aware it occured. What we are not denying is that stalin was a savage and a brute and murdered millions of his own people with his purges and he sent poles to gulags where they died.

Alyakia wrote:>communist state forces man to kill

>communism's fault

>capitalist state forces man to kill

>not capitalism's fault

Yeah, we'll capitalists didn't force anyone to participate in Prague Spring. That sh*t was brutal.

Right-Winged Nation wrote:No one denies the famine, we are aware it occured. What we are not denying is that stalin was a savage and a brute and murdered millions of his own people with his purges and he sent poles to gulags where they died.

Aw darn. I'm a pole.

KILL EVERY ONE OVER TEN

Alyakia wrote:KILL EVERY ONE OVER TEN

You mean... *puts on shades* ...decimate?

YEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

Miencraft, Tyrinth, Right-Winged Nation

And maybe i am just some right-winged nut, but wasn't the famine a man made one to kill people in Ukraine who wanted independence?

Right-Winged Nation wrote:And maybe i am just some right-winged nut, but wasn't the famine a man made one to kill people in Ukraine who wanted independence?

no. read a book.

try Tauger or Davies/Wheatcroft. (Pevvania likes Davies/Wheatcroft so you know it's not a biased source for reds only!!)

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:no. read a book.

try Tauger or Davies/Wheatcroft. (Pevvania likes Davies/Wheatcroft so you know it's not a biased source for reds only!!)

The term Holodomor refers specifically to the brutal artificial famine imposed by Stalin's regime on Soviet Ukraine and primarily ethnically Ukrainian areas in the Northern Caucasus in 1932-33. You sure about that?

Right-Winged Nation wrote:The term Holodomor refers specifically to the brutal artificial famine imposed by Stalin's regime on Soviet Ukraine and primarily ethnically Ukrainian areas in the Northern Caucasus in 1932-33. You sure about that?

"imposed by Stalin's regime" implies that you still believe, in the face of overwhelming evidence and scholarly debate on the topic, that it was intentionally caused by Stalin.

There's no discussion if you're going to live in a fantasy world.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:"imposed by Stalin's regime" implies that you still believe, in the face of overwhelming evidence and scholarly debate on the topic, that it was intentionally caused by Stalin.

There's no discussion if you're going to live in a fantasy world.

Okay and you are living a world of reality where stalin was a wonderful guy and that the USSR prevailed. Oh wait a minute 😂😂😂

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:There's no discussion

Well, you heard it here first, folks - argument's over.

Miencraft

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Okay and you are living a world of reality where stalin was a wonderful guy and that the USSR prevailed. Oh wait a minute 😂😂😂

I never said Stalin was a wonderful guy. I said he didn't intentionally cause the 1933 famine.

and the USSR did prevail over Nazi Germany, soooo

(lol if you think Reagan had anything to do with the fall of the Soviet Union)

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:"imposed by Stalin's regime" implies that you still believe, in the face of overwhelming evidence and scholarly debate on the topic, that it was intentionally caused by Stalin.

There's no discussion if you're going to live in a fantasy world.

Well comrade i am done going back in forth with you let me know how communism works for you or if it ever works for anyone in the future. Hail the motherland!!!!

I thought we'd agreed to stop.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:I never said Stalin was a wonderful guy. I said he didn't intentionally cause the 1933 famine.

and the USSR did prevail over Nazi Germany, soooo

(lol if you think Reagan had anything to do with the fall of the Soviet Union)

You're right, it was Rocky IV that did it 😀

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Well comrade i am done going back in forth with you let me know how communism works for you or if it ever works for anyone in the future. Hail the motherland!!!!

why don't you read something and educate yourself?

the communist manifesto is a quick afternoon read: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

Kings Island wrote:I thought we'd agreed to stop.

We had, but then Pevvania decided to be cute and get a quick snipe in at the end, so we're back.

Kings Island wrote:I thought we'd agreed to stop.

He still has fight in him unfortunately. I tried asking nicely too

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:why don't you read something and educate yourself?

the communist manifesto is a quick afternoon read: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

We had, but then Pevvania decided to be cute and get a quick snipe in at the end, so we're back.

Oh yes the communist manifesto. Kill the rich and everything will work out fine. No thank you

Right-Winged Nation wrote:Oh yes the communist manifesto. Kill the rich and everything will work out fine. No thank you

I see you're scared of anything that challenges your pre-defined worldview. It must be a big, scary world for you.

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:I see you're scared of anything that challenges your pre-defined worldview. It must be a big, scary world for you.

It must be scary for you to actually work and earn things in life. Because everything should be handed to you and everyone should just be the same and not be able to strive for greatness

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:We had, but then Pevvania decided to be cute and get a quick snipe in at the end, so we're back.

Oh, I see how it is: It's not your fault that you backed out of the agreement, because Pevvania drove you to it.

It's not your fault that you're invading New Republica, because they had an embassy with Libertatem, and that's terrible.

It's not your fault that you antagonized REATO forces in the first place, because they had a "War on Communism", which was clearly a sign of aggression.

So please, keep inventing new ways to avoid responsibility. We can see the truth - you just can't be held accountable for anything, not because of who your enemies are (or what they've taken from you), not because of the clauses you sneak into WA proposals, and not because leftist unity justifies the means, but because you're not willing to let go of your pride.

Miencraft, Right-Winged Nation

Right-Winged Nation wrote:It must be scary for you to actually work and earn things in life. Because everything should be handed to you and everyone should just be the same and not be able to strive for greatness

yeah you know nothing about my life though so this lame attack falls really flat. I'm employed full-time and enjoy what I do, thanks. :)

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:yeah you know nothing about my life though so this lame attack falls really flat. I'm employed full-time and enjoy what I do, thanks. :)

Oh but you shouldn't be employed because isn't your employer abusing his power over you and impressing the evils of capitalism?

Trf Submarine Group I wrote:yeah you know nothing about my life though so this lame attack falls really flat. I'm employed full-time and enjoy what I do, thanks. :)

I know what you do, I think - you're a schoolteacher, right? (Though that does little to answer the question of why you engage in vitriolic arguments with teenagers and young adults in your free time...)

And, I mean, hey, to each his own - I just find that a bit weird.

Condealism wrote:And, I mean, hey, to each his own - I just find that a bit weird.

I am just surprised, i mean his employer is forcing evil capatilsitic methods on him, how does he do it?

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