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Region: Libertatem

History

Humpheria wrote:Breaking off all of America's ties to the organizations that we started. Regardless of your condescending manner, there is such a thing as consequences. And you may feel more intelligent and cultured by being an establishment-hater, but some things you just have to do.

I don't want to break all ties. Im just stating they are organizations that don't matter. What would NATO do without us? What would the UN do without us? Nothing. Heck. Russia might like us more.

I'm not an "anti - establishment hater" I'm a person whom believes Pro- Establishment and Anti- Establishment are both poor stances and the best stance is a Neutral educated view on Establishments benifets and downfalls.

Humpheria wrote:Breaking off all of America's ties to the organizations that we started. Regardless of your condescending manner, there is such a thing as consequences. And you may feel more intelligent and cultured by being an establishment-hater, but some things you just have to do.

I don't want to break all ties. Im just stating they are organizations that don't matter. What would NATO do without us? What would the UN do without us? Nothing. Heck. Russia might like us more.

I'm not an "anti - establishment hater" I'm a person whom believes Pro- Establishment and Anti- Establishment are both poor stances and the best stance is a Neutral educated view on Establishments benifets and downfalls.

The Time Alliance wrote:I don't want to break all ties. Im just stating they are organizations that don't matter. What would NATO do without us? What would the UN do without us? Nothing. Heck. Russia might like us more.

I'm not an "anti - establishment hater" I'm a person whom believes Pro- Establishment and Anti- Establishment are both poor stances and the best stance is a Neutral educated view on Establishments benifets and downfalls.

That is the only outcome that can be accomplished by your proposals. Your talking about denouncing our entire foreign affair capabilities. The fact is that you cannot throw away all of your alliances and still maintain your way of life.

The Time Alliance wrote:Overrated? Yeah.....so Overrated. Not America, China or Russia, but Canada?

Canada isn't respected as much as it should be.

To be honest, America is probably freer than most nations, despite the numerous flaws in its political system. It's only overrated if you dislike American culture. Personally, I love it.

Canada is often portrayed as the overlooked, better-looking younger brother of America. People scream "Canada's great! It's just a better version of America, with free healthcare, friendly people and free healthcare!"

Speaking from personal experience, little of this is true. Their famed healthcare system is actually one of the worst in the Western world. Patients have to suffer extraordinarily long wait times (which sometimes kill people) to gain mediocre medical treatment by impersonal doctors and outdated techniques. Private insurance is largely restricted.

Meanwhile, Canadians have to comply with a burdensome and overcomplicated tax system coupled with erroneous regulations. And if you think that sounds bad, go to Quebec, if you're brave. That place is big government capital of the world.

And they're not even that friendly, at least compared to their southern neighbour.

Humpheria wrote:That is the only outcome that can be accomplished by your proposals. Your talking about denouncing our entire foreign affair capabilities. The fact is that you cannot throw away all of your alliances and still maintain your way of life.

You can step out of worthless organizations without stepping out of alliances.

America and Britain have more treaties than the NATO treaty.

Again, you feel the need to criticize everything that exists so you look intelligent and cultured. But you just come off as bitter and hateful.

Pevvania wrote:To be honest, America is probably freer than most nations, despite the numerous flaws in its political system. It's only overrated if you dislike American culture. Personally, I love it.

Its 19 for most free. I don't rate only by freedom. I rate by success as well.

Pevvania wrote:

Canada is often portrayed as the overlooked, better-looking younger brother of America. People scream "Canada's great! It's just a better version of America, with free healthcare, friendly people and free healthcare!"

Keyword free healthcare. Friendly? No.

Pevvania wrote:

Speaking from personal experience, little of this is true. Their famed healthcare system is actually one of the worst in the Western world. Patients have to suffer extraordinarily long wait times (which sometimes kill people) to gain mediocre medical treatment by impersonal doctors and outdated techniques. Private insurance is largely restricted.

But it's free. If you dislike it pay for better. Go to America. Land of "Freedom"

Pevvania wrote:

Meanwhile, Canadians have to comply with a burdensome and overcomplicated tax system coupled with erroneous regulations. And if you think that sounds bad, go to Quebec, if you're brave. That place is big government capital of the world.

And they're not even that friendly, at least compared to their southern neighbour.

Were friendly? Where do you live?

And we don't have complicated tax? They have big government capitals? North Korea? Russia? China? Every other nation you dislike because they aren't libertarians?

The Time Alliance wrote:You can step out of worthless organizations without stepping out of alliances.

America and Britain have more treaties than the NATO treaty.

That is the entirely wrong attitude.

Pev lives in the UK.

Humpheria wrote:Again, you feel the need to criticize everything that exists so you look intelligent and cultured. But you just come off as bitter and hateful.

But I don't. I point out things we have that aren't good.

I can say the same about non-republicans and non-democrats.

Humpheria wrote:Pev lives in the UK.

I live in America.

I have personal experiences. We aren't friendly in the slightest.

Humpheria wrote:That is the entirely wrong attitude.

Of course because you don't agree with it.

The Time Alliance wrote:But I don't. I point out things we have that aren't good.

I can say the same about non-republicans and non-democrats.

You could. And you'd be right. The biggest issue we have now isn't bad leadership, it's too many people finding ways that something won't work and condemning everything, and not enough people finding solutions and ways to make it work.

The Time Alliance wrote:Of course because you don't agree with it.

It has been proven to not work. How would making enemies with the most powerful international organizations in history a plausible option? That is the path to isolationism, which really doesn't work.

But it's free. If you dislike it pay for better. Go to America. Land of "Freedom"

Honestly, can we stop with the whole "JUST MOVE TO...." we all no thats really feasible and that a truly weak argument when addressing a disagreement regarding public policy

Lack There Of wrote:But it's free. If you dislike it pay for better. Go to America. Land of "Freedom"

Honestly, can we stop with the whole "JUST MOVE TO...." we all no thats really feasible and that a truly weak argument when addressing a disagreement regarding public policy

Thank you.

Humpheria wrote:You could. And you'd be right. The biggest issue we have now isn't bad leadership, it's too many people finding ways that something won't work and condemning everything, and not enough people finding solutions and ways to make it work.

It's both. There are ways to make NATO and EU work.

NATO

- America currently does everything other members should pull their own weight.

EU

- Look. Fix the economy. Get rid of the Oligarchy.

UN

-Work harder to prevent wars.

- Everything else UN does is pretty good. I dislike the UN but it does system.

Humpheria wrote:It has been proven to not work. How would making enemies with the most powerful international organizations in history a plausible option? That is the path to isolationism, which really doesn't work.

NATO is powerful because America is in it. We pull it's weight. EU is failing. It's markets failing across the board.

Look at Switzerland. It's not in EU or NATO but it's not isolationist.

Lack There Of wrote:But it's free. If you dislike it pay for better. Go to America. Land of "Freedom"

Honestly, can we stop with the whole "JUST MOVE TO...." we all no thats really feasible and that a truly weak argument when addressing a disagreement regarding public policy

People "VISIT" countries all the time to get better healthcare.

I never said Freaking MOVE TO.....

NATO would lose power over us, but it would also be seen as a betrayal, and they would get a stronger base because of our dropping all international pull. It would still be dangerous and unnecessary.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Switzerland isn't built like us and you can't use them as an example to promote your point, it just doesn't make sense.

The Time Alliance wrote:People "VISIT" countries all the time to get better healthcare.

I never said Freaking MOVE TO.....

"If you dislike it, pay for better. Go to America, Land of 'Freedom'"

Some people have just lost all sense of patriotism.

Humpheria wrote:NATO would lose power over us, but it would also be seen as a betrayal, and they would get a stronger base because of our dropping all international pull. It would still be dangerous and unnecessary.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Switzerland isn't built like us and you can't use them as an example to promote your point, it just doesn't make sense.

A neutral policy can be achieved by ANY nation.

So us leaving would be the best thing to happen to NATO. How would it lose power OVER US? We are the ones who do almost everything.

Humpheria wrote:Some people have just lost all sense of patriotism.

I know. I seem to be the only individual who places his hand on his heart or says the pledge of allegiance at my school.

Humpheria wrote:"If you dislike it, pay for better. Go to America, Land of 'Freedom'"

All dat sarcasm in the second part. But hey. Every other European like country comes to America. Why can't Canada?

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which It stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, for Liberty and Justice, for all.

We need one of these.

Humpheria wrote:I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which It stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, for Liberty and Justice, for all.

We need one of these.

Amen.

1 hour and 15 minutes till Ukraines deadline hits.

I am very concerned on how this will turn out for everybody.

Humpheria wrote:I am very concerned on how this will turn out for everybody.

Same. I'm hoping I'm overreacting to the situation

For some reason, I feel like everyone is. This might amount to nothing, maybe.

Humpheria wrote:For some reason, I feel like everyone is. This might amount to nothing, maybe.

I hope so.... however with Putin......and America....

I don't know.

UN just suspended Bilateral trade and investment with Russia

On another note, I have talked to CI and he has approved the Board's decision to authorize military action regarding TFI 2nd Gen. Our Constitution states "The Board shall have the authority to declare war, create peace, and check the power of the President when it deems fit through petition and redress, as well as a popular vote among the various Board Members and Managers.". Well, we debated and a popular majority has been reached wherein the Board authorizes the mobilization of Libertaten puppets that can be used in the event that they are needed in the region of The Federal Islands 2Nd Gen. We also requested that the REATO resolution be introduced. The latter has already been fulfilled. Now, if you are interested in helping out one of our chief allies reach democracy and freedom, please send a puppet to the region, said puppet must be available for military purposes. They don't have to be WA yet, but if the need arises, they will have to be. Neo-CSA has been briefed as well as the Board, feel free to ask any one of us for information. But, it is pretty self-explanatory.

I have arrived :)

Welcome to our great region, sir. Mr. President, can we please introduce the FRAUD Act up to vote in the House?

Only the first sentence was for you.

K, well, I dun goofed

Welcome to Libertatem!

Looks like I missed some fun debating while I was working.. lol

Time, I used to live in the US for a while, and have been there on vacation numerous times. From my experiences, Americans are very friendly.

I don't trust international 'freedom rankings', since they have a tendancy to overlook a lot in judging nations. For example, many indexes rank Australia in the top 5 countries for economic freedom. As an Australian, I find this ridiculous.

Onocarcass wrote:I have arrived :)

BUDDY! HI!

Pevvania wrote:Time, I used to live in the US for a while, and have been there on vacation numerous times. From my experiences, Americans are very friendly.

I don't trust international 'freedom rankings', since they have a tendancy to overlook a lot in judging nations. For example, many indexes rank Australia in the top 5 countries for economic freedom. As an Australian, I find this ridiculous.

What States?

Onocarcass wrote:I have arrived :)

Welcome!

The Time Alliance wrote:BUDDY! HI!

What States?

I've been to California and most East Coast states except Maine, Delaware, Connecticut and Rhode Island. So 11.

Humpheria wrote:Welcome to our great region, sir. Mr. President, can we please introduce the FRAUD Act up to vote in the House?

We need to deal with the WA issue first. I think we should just make it simple and require that all public officials and House members who've drafted a bill specify their WA nation.

Post the amended bill when its maladies are addressed.

Pevvania wrote:I've been to California and most East Coast states except Maine, Delaware, Connecticut and Rhode Island. So 11.

Georgia?

Pevvania wrote:We need to deal with the WA issue first. I think we should just make it simple and require that all public officials and House members who've drafted a bill specify their WA nation.

Post the amended bill when its maladies are addressed.

What if they don't have a WA nation. Are they not citizens

The Time Alliance wrote:Georgia?

Yup, I've driven through Georgia. But I don't think I stopped there.

The Time Alliance wrote:What if they don't have a WA nation. Are they not citizens

My proposal is that you don't need a WA account to be a citizen, but if you want the responsibilities of being a part of the government you are required to have one.

By the way guys, I'm a "retarded idiot". http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=5554317

Pevvania wrote:Yup, I've driven through Georgia. But I don't think I stopped there.

My proposal is that you don't need a WA account to be a citizen, but if you want the responsibilities of being a part of the government you are required to have one.

Stop here. We're an awesome state. Check out Warner Robins.

So I can't be part of the government given I'm not in the WA? Sounds Authoritarian.

The Time Alliance wrote:Stop here. We're an awesome state. Check out Warner Robins.

So I can't be part of the government given I'm not in the WA? Sounds Authoritarian.

I might go there later this year, actually. There or Texas.

Public officials serve us, not the other way around. If you want to undertake the responsibilities of working for the region, you should expect to provide your WA nation. Don't like it? Don't run for office.

Pevvania wrote:I might go there later this year, actually. There or Texas.

Good choice. Stay where it's warm.. freezing here in the mitten! (Michigan)

Muh Roads wrote:Good choice. Stay where it's warm.. freezing here in the mitten! (Michigan)

Home of Detroit, eh? How's that working out for ya?

Pevvania wrote:Home of Detroit, eh? How's that working out for ya?

I live about 60 miles north of Detroit at least in a small town. I'm closer to Flint than Detroit. Flint has been in more financial trouble throughout its history than Detroit has from what I understand. Poverty in the major cities is just something we've grown accustomed to here I think.

In my own experience, I've never had a hard time finding work. Sure theres been some times of brief unemployment, and I know people who have been on unemployment for years (older folks especially) who wont work outside their trade (its all I know is there excuse).

I've never experienced much inner city crime, I frequent Detroit's casinos and the biggest hassle is the occasional homeless trying to get cigarettes and donations for the "veterans fund". Most people in the city of Flint and Detroit are fairly kind because we're all facing the same struggle. Statistics don't lie obviously but for the most part if you keep to yourself and your car doors locked thats all it takes.

Still, it's extremely hard to have any sort of opinion against welfare here. Alot of folks are extremely dependent on the government. Sometimes I feel like the only person in the state not on medicaid or food stamps lol. I've taken advantage of unemployment benefits twice but never had to collect for more than two weeks. I find opportunity and I take it.

Pevvania wrote:I might go there later this year, actually. There or Texas.

Public officials serve us, not the other way around. If you want to undertake the responsibilities of working for the region, you should expect to provide your WA nation. Don't like it? Don't run for office.

The WA is stupid. It serves no purpose to ruin Economies of nations.

The government forcing someone to be in the WA is just as bad as The government forcing them to live their life a certain way.

Oh, and Hell freezes over every year here. (See Hell, Michigan)

It's a toasty 0°F here in Connecticut.

Alchandria wrote:It's a toasty 0°F here in Connecticut.

It's actually 9 here but with windchill it feels like -2.

I'm not a huge fan of Connecticut.

Muh Roads wrote:It's actually 9 here but with windchill it feels like -2.

Alchandria wrote:It's a toasty 0°F here in Connecticut.

Muh Roads wrote:Oh, and Hell freezes over every year here. (See Hell, Michigan)

Muh Roads wrote:Good choice. Stay where it's warm.. freezing here in the mitten! (Michigan)

Poor y'all it's freezing in Georgia too. 56 degrees.

The Time Alliance wrote:Poor y'all it's freezing in Georgia too. 56 degrees.

I thought 56 was cold when I lived in TN.. lol

FRAUD Act

Future Regional Activity Unfair Discourse Act

Section I

Purpose of the Act

Subsection I

Clarify specific laws on puppet use

Subsection II

Address voter fraud

Subsection III

Foreign puppets

Subsection IV

Citizenship

Section II

Clarify specific laws on puppet use

Subsection I

Any nation classified as a Citizen is entitled to the use of puppets

Subsection II

Said puppets must be announced as such, or they are illegal

Subsection III

Said puppets ARE NOT Citizens, and do not have voting rights

Section III

Address voter fraud

Subsection I

Any Citizen may have only one vote in any office or legislative election or referendum

Subsection II

Only Citizens of Libertatem may vote in any office or legislative election or referendum

Subsection III

No nation that has resided in Libertatem for less than ten days may be qualified as Citizens

Subsection IV

Any nation convicted of voter fraud will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Section IV

Foreign dignitaries

Subsection I

Any nation from any ally of Libertatem may send a dignitary puppet

Subsection II

These puppets must be identified as dignitaries to be granted proper rights

Subsection III

It is illegal for a foreign nation to send a puppet disguised as a sovereign nation

Subsection IV

After having membership of more than ten days, these puppets will classify as Citizens

Section V

Citizenship

Subsection I

Only Citizens may hold office and vote in public elections, they are not required to do either

Subsection II

One must be a resident by at least ten days before being eligible for citizenship

Subsection III

If a nation is a puppet, they must identify their WA nation, with the exception of known military operatives

Subsection IV

After the residency requirement is met, a nation must notify the Manager of Internal Affairs

Subsection V

The Manager of Internal Affairs will keep a public list of Citizens, only those nations may hold office and vote

Authored By:

Humpheria

Yea:

Ronald Reagan And Rick Grimes

Miencraft

Alchandria

Lack There Of

Nay

None

House Ruling

AT VOTE

Signed By:

The President of Libertatem

Pevvania (Not Yet Signed, Pending House vote)

Manager of Internal Affairs

Muh Roads

The specified issues have been resolved.

It's board only vote right?

No the Board has voted, it's the House now. Only you guys vote.

Please remember to send puppets to TFI 2nd Gen. We are mobilizing a tactical support campaign. We will have a garrison there that can be activated when needed. Your region calls on you.

Works for me. I guess I better clear out my inbox for all the TG's im gonna get for citizenship notifications if this clears lol

Better yet, if this passes ill make a formal application for citizenship in Libertatem.

I withdraw my vote from the current legislation due to the impromptu changes with which I am in disagreement with.

Due to the WA amendment? Is that it? You want the whole piece of important legislation because of one subsection? Just, wow.

I vote nay to the resolution.

I approved this before this subsection and I find this to be a restriction to those residents whom do not belong, nor wish to belong to the WA.

I recommend, for ease of passage and common liberty, that the bill is amended so that only public officials are required to give the details of their WA nation. There are still parts of the bill I dislike, but regardless I'll pledge by support of it and sign it if it clears the House.

Pevvania wrote:I recommend, for ease of passage and common liberty, that the bill is amended so that only public officials are required to give the details of their WA nation. There are still parts of the bill I dislike, but regardless I'll pledge by support of it and sign it if it clears the House.

I have no wish to belong to the WA. This is thus so a restriction.

The Time Alliance wrote:I have no wish to belong to the WA. This is thus so a restriction.

Then maybe you can propose a better idea?

Muh Roads wrote:Then maybe you can propose a better idea?

I am unopposed to the idea of a citizenship list. Why not just keep the application process, as is, and subtract the WA portion.

Muh Roads wrote:Then maybe you can propose a better idea?

Lack There Of wrote:I am unopposed to the idea of a citizenship list. Why not just keep the application process, as is, and subtract the WA portion.

Puppets are easy to find.

I have amended it to include only office holders. Just everyone understand that I cannot please everyone and if everyone has too many objections, I'll just drop it.

Humpheria wrote:I have amended it to include only office holders. Just everyone understand that I cannot please everyone and if everyone has too many objections, I'll just drop it.

I wish this is how government worked in the RW

Well. I guess I won't be running for president.

The Time Alliance wrote:Puppets are easy to find.

They are? Because NONE of my puppets have been identified during military operations as puppets.

Lack There Of wrote:I am unopposed to the idea of a citizenship list. Why not just keep the application process, as is, and subtract the WA portion.

The issue here is security.

Let me make it clear, i am not exactly a fan of the measure.. but we need some way to know we have legitimate votes.

Is all of this necessary? The purpose of this act is to ensure the security and fairness of this region. WHY IS EVERYONE COMMITTED TO FINDING PROBLEMS?!?!?!? I said it last night, people need to find ways to make things work, then take time out of your God-given day to find ways to destroy anything just to destroy it. Damn it all to hell, I'm done! Do whatever you want with the damn bill!

Humpheria wrote:Is all of this necessary? The purpose of this act is to ensure the security and fairness of this region. WHY IS EVERYONE COMMITTED TO FINDING PROBLEMS?!?!?!? I said it last night, people need to find ways to make things work, then take time out of your God-given day to find ways to destroy anything just to destroy it. Damn it all to hell, I'm done! Do whatever you want with the damn bill!

Easy there, remember the criticism is only going to make the bill better. Unfortunately thus far much of it has not been constructive. But it is as you said you cannot please everyone. If you would like Humpheria, I can amend the bill and take over from here.

What if we had someone who was in charge of checking how old all the nations who join are to protect the safety of the nation.

Muh Roads wrote:Easy there, remember the criticism is only going to make the bill better. Unfortunately thus far much of it has not been constructive. But it is as you said you cannot please everyone. If you would like Humpheria, I can amend the bill and take over from here.

I agree and there is a point where it is constructive, but when people criticize to criticize and don't offer any solutions. I am incredibly done with all of this, and Muh Roads, please take over. And good luck, I hope it works better for you.

Hallo Island wrote:What if we had someone who was in charge of checking how old all the nations who join are to protect the safety of the nation.

This would be a good idea, except that age of a nation doesnt exactly mean puppet. For example, I have two puppets here in Libertatem who are older than my main nation. Thank you for your input though.

Id like to call upon the bills two biggest critics thusfar, Lack there of and TTA to please help me with solutions. I know lack there of you wanted to see the bill without the WA subsection, how would you propose that we verify that a nation is not fraudulent? Remember we changed the amendment for only those who wish to hold office. Are we using a trust method here?

TTA, I've seen quite a bit of criticism from you but no suggestions as how to better the bill. When infact, you originally wanted a bill to protect us from this sort of concern. Correct me if I'm wrong.

For the record, you need WA status to be the president anyway.

Post self-deleted by Muh Roads.

Actually Pev, could you also touch on the parts of the bill you dislike?

Look. I'm not the one who pressed for the fraud act.

The way you are doing only allows for 11 members of this region to run for office.

According to that poll 3 are active.

Solution? Time and activity. To run for office one must be here for a certain time and must be active on NS.

In fact if this passes the entire ministry in the description of Libertatem will either have to join the WA or leave office according to the must have WA nation to run for office.

Muh Roads wrote:This would be a good idea, except that age of a nation doesnt exactly mean puppet. For example, I have two puppets here in Libertatem who are older than my main nation. Thank you for your input though.

What if we filter the activity to region changes only?

The Time Alliance wrote:In fact if this passes the entire ministry in the description of Libertatem will either have to join the WA or leave office according to the must have WA nation to run for office.

This nation doesn't have to be WA, you just have to say who your WA is, for regional security. There seems to be a large misunderstanding.

Humpheria wrote:This nation doesn't have to be WA, you just have to say who your WA is, for regional security. There seems to be a large misunderstanding.

What if you have no WA?

Than you say that. Few people don't, unless if they have a serious problem with the organization. Do you have a solution? Or will continue to find problems and not actually help?

The Time Alliance wrote:Look. I'm not the one who pressed for the fraud act.

The Libertatem President of Pevvania wrote:

Whethe or not you perform an investigation - which would be counterproductive and utterly futile - there is not any law specifically prohibiting the use of puppets to inflate the number of votes a candidate receives. So regardless of any alleged intent or actions, Alchandria or whatever party that would allegedly be responsible cannot be prosecuted or be penalised in any way according to the law.

The only way to prevent such a practice occurring is by creating a law to address it. I've been toying with the idea of a Citizenship Act for a while, and recommend that the Board and Internal Affairs Manager (as of tomorrow) convene on it.

The Time Alliance wrote:No law?

The Minarchist Society of Muh Roads wrote:

I think that was the idea Pev, or at least I hope it was.

I agree, we will get this situation sorted out.

The Time Alliance wrote:We need fixed. Make this law. Quick please.

This is where im coming from.

The problem with time and activity is that it is very hard to manage that. What exactly dictates an active member? RMB posts? Military activity? Communication through TG's? Voting record?

Hallo Island wrote:What if we filter the activity to region changes only?

Please clarify, i guess i don't understand?

Humpheria wrote:Than you say that. Few people don't, unless if they have a serious problem with the organization. Do you have a solution? Or will continue to find problems and not actually help?

Few people don't? We have 11 nations in WA.

But okay. I thought it was required. I'm for the Fraud Act.

Post self-deleted by Humpheria.

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.