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Region: Libertatem

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Miri Islands wrote:I was trying to find ways to ensure the Dictatorship is accountable to the people and I figured the one way to do that would be to have an armed populous to keep the regime in check and have a right to protest so those in charge know they made the public angry. They're ideas I've grown increasing interested in as I see it repeatedly in history where people vote for a welfare state or even vote for authoritarians. I like this place, nobody has ever engaged with these ideas seriously before

Libertatem is a great place to be. Welcome.

If the Government sticks to the Law and refrains from ordinating policy (except to its officials, agents, and operatives) like good government should, the best check is to allow the deliberative bodies of the People be live and be their own policy (public weal).

A well armed citizenry is a polite citizenry. It is better for the dictatorship to be afraid of the People than the People to be afraid of the dictatorship.

A strong local independent grand juries (free from fealty and indenture from a prosecutor's office).

Locally elected justices of the Peace bound by a Basic/Organic/Common Law (in the Classical Liberal sense).

A citizenry with access to strong Common Law writs by which the dictatorship is bound to administer justice when a person is wronged.

Guarantee of the free flow of information could be a good check.

I see Romania as a contemporary example of a former dictatorship turning into a relatively "free" nation in the Classical Liberal sense, but struggling to remove the corruption from the former unbridled Statism from its ranks. Each election pulls the People either back a bit toward state control, or bit by bit more free in a Parliamentarian Democratic sense. Their republicanism (little r) looks to antique Rome despite formerly heavily influence by Marxism so government leadership tends toward Premiers/Pro-Consul style within a 5th Republic French Constitutional Semi-Presidential System. Everyone who heads a government body whether a team of dog-catchers, to a head of Government seems to be titled a President.

Governments are by default are force and coercion, and in that sense dictatorial. Even in a constitutional limited government (small letters) such as originally envision for the US and their home States by Jefferson or Madison), the Authority (or State of the State at both State and Federal arenas) was to justly secure the blessings of Liberty and Equality under law for the People peaceably but with powerful efficiency and put down invasion and insurrection with brutal expediency. In everything else it was to be slow and cumbersome to dissuade it from encroaching on the myriad of things that did not pertain to proper external governance regarding 17 specific things the were contracted to do (Federally, and the 100+ things retained by the several States -- not to mention the uncountable number of things retained by the People themselves).

By definition Dictatorships are not accountable to the people, nor bound by and fixed legal rules or duly constituted Law. It is this lack of restraint to legality and lawfulness that makes a dictatorship so dangerously prone to practice illegitimacy and lawlessness, especially through creeping arbitrariness and ambiguity. By being above the Nation He/She/They control, they are likely to suffer from Golden Child Syndrome whose wants, needs, expectations and sensibilities (or lack thereof) are easily so out of touch that they keep the People/Nation from self-determination to the point of tyranny and despotism.

What are your thoughts?

Rateria

Erinzanski wrote:Hey yalls, new here

Greetings

Erinzanski

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Narland wrote:Libertatem is a great place to be. Welcome.

By definition Dictatorships are not accountable to the people, nor bound by and fixed legal rules or duly constituted Law. It is this lack of restraint to legality and lawfulness that makes a dictatorship so dangerously prone to practice illegitimacy and lawlessness, especially through creeping arbitrariness and ambiguity. By being above the Nation He/She/They control, they are likely to suffer from Golden Child Syndrome whose wants, needs, expectations and sensibilities (or lack thereof) are easily so out of touch that they keep the People/Nation from self-determination to the point of tyranny and despotism.

What are your thoughts?

I don't agree. I think Dictators are indeed accountable to the people. It's part of the reason Dictators are sometimes overthrown. They have to be able to provide some measurements of prosperity and security otherwise they will lose legitimacy like the current Maduro reigme. On the other hand Dictators like Lee Kuan Yew who are able to lead their countries to prosperity even at the expense of civil liberties can be extremely well liked by the populous despite not technically being accountable to the public.

Unpopular Dictators will have a hard time maintaining order and good Dictators will have good support from the public. If a dictator doesn't want to die they will please the public and make sure they have support

Miri Islands wrote:I don't agree. I think Dictators are indeed accountable to the people. It's part of the reason Dictators are sometimes overthrown. They have to be able to provide some measurements of prosperity and security otherwise they will lose legitimacy like the current Maduro reigme. On the other hand Dictators like Lee Kuan Yew who are able to lead their countries to prosperity even at the expense of civil liberties can be extremely well liked by the populous despite not technically being accountable to the public.

Unpopular Dictators will have a hard time maintaining order and good Dictators will have good support from the public. If a dictator doesn't want to die they will please the public and make sure they have support

No one man has the right to rule over everyone else. Regardless of how popular they are

Narland, Rateria

Thanks for the reply. I re-edited the previous post that accidentally got cut to include possible checks of the People against a dictatorship. The best protection from any power is a strong constitution.

I agree that dictatorships need the people's support, and even an oppressive dictatorship must placate the people to such an extent as to not be overthrown. But this is not the same as accountability -- being subject to the same laws and legal processes as everyone else and subject to investigative scrutiny socially, politically, and criminally. The dictator at some point is above the law he seeks to enforce instead of under it like everyone else.

Rateria

I'm an atheist, so this is just a hypothetical, but if the one true God came down from heaven and made himself known, and declared himself ruler of Earth, would you grant him legitimatcy? Do you think the monotheists would come together and recognize him?

Rateria

Narland wrote:Thanks for the reply. I re-edited the previous post that accidentally got cut to include possible checks of the People against a dictatorship. The best protection from any power is a strong constitution.

I agree that dictatorships need the people's support, and even an oppressive dictatorship must placate the people to such an extent as to not be overthrown. But this is not the same as accountability -- being subject to the same laws and legal processes as everyone else and subject to investigative scrutiny socially, politically, and criminally. The dictator at some point is above the law he seeks to enforce instead of under it like everyone else.

Not all dictators are absolute, Constitutional Dictatorships are a way to keep a dictator in check. With rights guaranteed by a constitution. It would allow a populous to better hold a dictator accountable while still holding principled views and not be subjected to a democratic process. In this system the Dictator could not abuse rights to suppress opposition which would mean the Dictator would have to work on making things better to satisfy the populous. Then again it would take alot to get people out in the street to riot against a leader who hasn't abused his power. However, if the Dictator was truely awful, like we've seen in many regimes in the world, the people engaged in violent overthrow because of human rights abuses and generally terrible living conditions. It does seem that often Dictators are held more to account that politicians in democratic systems because the Dictator is the recipient of all scorn and will even pay with their life if they upset the public. On the other hand politicians can royally screw up a system and then leave office as their worst consequence

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Skaveria wrote:I'm an atheist, so this is just a hypothetical, but if the one true God came down from heaven and made himself known, and declared himself ruler of Earth, would you grant him legitimatcy? Do you think the monotheists would come together and recognize him?

Any sapient being stepping into the space-time continuum declaring Divinity and unable to prove it would be resisted as a pretender to the ineffable Supreme Being by those looking for someone who can be deduced by either natural or divine revelation as the Primus Movens. Any sapient being claiming to be a Saviour/Champion/Hero/Leader who satisfies People's wants, needs, desires, and expectations and are willing to grant divine worship (count as worthy to be the God) can be fooled. Since we do not know the why of who believes, until this happens it could be any ratio.

Jesus Christ claimed divinity and gave proof by (amongst other things) by raising a friend, and then himself from the dead according to the witnesses. He then commissioned a bunch of followers to go and proclaim the Good News that those who believe in Him will eventually be set free from the bondage of sin and death; and that as Judge of the Universe will return in the same manner back as he left (through the clouds).

Now someone who:

1. exerts absolute dominion over all matter and energy, and all that is, ever was, and will be;

2. raises bodily the souls of all the dead and living for judgment;

3. permanently removes those who insist on remaining in their fallen state (and thus fight against redemption) thrown permanently into a realm divorced from his common good graces --e.g., truth, justice and beauty;

3. transmogrifies the entire universe back to a negentropic/paradisaic/immaculate state including a new earth; and

4. against whom no created being can withstand

will have my full undivided attention.

Someone claiming to be God while acting like a created being, especially a fallen sapient being I will resist as the greatest of deceivers.

Miri Islands wrote:Not all dictators are absolute, Constitutional Dictatorships are a way to keep a dictator in check. With rights guaranteed by a constitution. It would allow a populous to better hold a dictator accountable while still holding principled views and not be subjected to a democratic process. In this system the Dictator could not abuse rights to suppress opposition which would mean the Dictator would have to work on making things better to satisfy the populous. Then again it would take alot to get people out in the street to riot against a leader who hasn't abused his power. However, if the Dictator was truely awful, like we've seen in many regimes in the world, the people engaged in violent overthrow because of human rights abuses and generally terrible living conditions. It does seem that often Dictators are held more to account that politicians in democratic systems because the Dictator is the recipient of all scorn and will even pay with their life if they upset the public. On the other hand politicians can royally screw up a system and then leave office as their worst consequence

IC. I tend to use the term Monarch (a good lone ruler) or Autocrat (netrual term), and Dictator, Tyrant, and Despot as negative terms as the dictionary such as [url]https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/dictatorship/[/url] does. Yes a lone ruler with strong executive, legislative, and/or judicial powers with the proper moral/ethical bounds can work as you describe. :)

Narland wrote:IC. I tend to use the term Monarch (a good lone ruler) or Autocrat (netrual term), and Dictator, Tyrant, and Despot as negative terms as the dictionary such as [url]https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/dictatorship/[/url] does. Yes a lone ruler with strong executive, legislative, and/or judicial powers with the proper moral/ethical bounds can work as you describe. :)

I use the term like the enlightenment philosophers used them monarch refered to a one ruler with a divine right to rule. The more secular philosophers used the term enlightened Dictator to refer to a single ruler who does not carry the divine right in favor of a constitution. The term to lable a dictator who abuses fundamental human rights was referred to as a Tyrant in Voltaires work he commonly referred to the French monarchy as tyrannical

Miri Islands wrote:I use the term like the enlightenment philosophers used them monarch refered to a one ruler with a divine right to rule. The more secular philosophers used the term enlightened Dictator to refer to a single ruler who does not carry the divine right in favor of a constitution. The term to lable a dictator who abuses fundamental human rights was referred to as a Tyrant in Voltaires work he commonly referred to the French monarchy as tyrannical

Keen. As a Christian Humanist on the Scottish Enlightenment side of the fence I find a monarch who asserts divine right is no monarch at all but a petty despot with illusions of grandeur (ala Samuel Rutherford, et al.) Thanks for explaining.

Narland wrote:Keen. As a Christian Humanist on the Scottish Enlightenment side of the fence I find a monarch who asserts divine right is no monarch at all but a petty despot with illusions of grandeur (ala Samuel Rutherford, et al.) Thanks for explaining.

Yea, if there's anything I've learned it's that definitions matter alot otherwise people end up talking past each other. The enlightenment has to be my favorite era of philosophy as there are so many wildly different and interesting ideas

Skaveria wrote:I'm an atheist, so this is just a hypothetical, but if the one true God came down from heaven and made himself known, and declared himself ruler of Earth, would you grant him legitimatcy? Do you think the monotheists would come together and recognize him?

No I would tell him to F off and let me live my life

Miencraft, Highway Eighty-Eight

I really like all the activity in the forum now.

Jadentopian Order wrote:No I would tell him to F off and let me live my life

Edgy

Jadentopian Order

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Plot twist, "God" is just Zues, the lesser gods are arch-angels, Hades is Satan, and Mary was just one of Zues's well- known visits to mortal women, and Jesus is a demi-god.

Miri Islands

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Edgy

~Lib 2019

Rateria, Jadentopian Order, Kongeriget Island

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Edgy

My overwhelming need to make Lib mad is leaking onto the rest of Libertatem

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:I'm an atheist, so this is just a hypothetical, but if the one true God came down from heaven and made himself known, and declared himself ruler of Earth, would you grant him legitimatcy? Do you think the monotheists would come together and recognize him?

I mean I think religion would disappear as it requires a faith in the unknown that no longer exists with God's confirmed presence. At that point, it's not a question of monotheism recognizing him as the legitimate authority, but all of human civilization. However, given God's omnipotence, he could just kill all who reject him and we're just stuck with a monarchy

Venomringo wrote:I mean I think religion would disappear as it requires a faith in the unknown that no longer exists with God's confirmed presence. At that point, it's not a question of monotheism recognizing him as the legitimate authority, but all of human civilization. However, given God's omnipotence, he could just kill all who reject him and we're just stuck with a monarchy

Given his track record, God is a really crappy Tyrant and his omnipotence doesn't help

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

[discussion about libertarianism occurs]

^_^

[discussion turns to how statism/authoritarianism can be used to promote libertarian ideals]

0_o

[discussion takes another turn, this time to the idea of God establishing an Earth-wide monarchy]

O_O

Narland, Rateria, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order, Highway Eighty-Eight, Erinzanski

What do you guys think of the situation surrounding white land expropriation in South Africa?

New Scotish Republic Of The Pacific wrote:What do you guys think of the situation surrounding white land expropriation in South Africa?

It's not good, not good at all. It won't be long before South Africa is in a race war.

People in the west either don't know about it or don't care.

Back when I was taking this one Polisci class, I brought this up, and one kid said "Well I don't feel bad about white people getting their land taken."

West Smolcasm wrote:[discussion about libertarianism occurs]

^_^

[discussion turns to how statism/authoritarianism can be used to promote libertarian ideals]

0_o

[discussion takes another turn, this time to the idea of God establishing an Earth-wide monarchy]

O_O

Well, if a genuinely all-powerful and all-good being, which is what I'm using for the definition of God, gave you direction, it'd behooth us to listen, no?

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:But the God of that the Jews describe in their book is a mass murderer, who, among other things, forced people to do things he said were wrong and then punished them for it. I think it'd it'd be perfectly moral to oppose such a being (ignoring that this thing is all powerful and can't actually be opposed.)

I'm not talking spacifically about any particular God. I'm actually of the opinion that if there were a god, they wouldn't be the god of any current religion.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Skaveria wrote:Well, if a genuinely all-powerful and all-good being, which is what I'm using for the definition of God, gave you direction, it'd behooth us to listen, no?

An all-powerful God wouldn't need to remind the Earth that He is its suzerain overlord, nor would an all-good God rescind His gift of the Earth to mankind. Besides, the King of Kings reigns from Heaven; Earth would be a step down for Him.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

As much as I hate rules, we should implement a comment a day minimum, so our chat doesn't die.

If you see the last comment was 18 hours ago, go ahead and post something, ANYTHING.

we're all interesting people. Ask questions, publish manifestos, rant, meme, whatever.

Narland, West Smolcasm

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Skaveria wrote:As much as I hate rules, we should implement a comment a day minimum, so our chat doesn't die.

If you see the last comment was 18 hours ago, go ahead and post something, ANYTHING.

we're all interesting people. Ask questions, publish manifestos, rant, meme, whatever.

Hey, at least I can say this one's not on me; I was just the last poster

Insufficiently high shower heads are evil

Miencraft, Narland, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order

The United States Of Patriots wrote:Insufficiently high shower heads are evil

As a tall guy, I agree.

The United States Of Patriots

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Are you a giant?

Depends on which gas station I'm in.

Agressively average height ftw

New Scotish Republic Of The Pacific wrote:What do you guys think of the situation surrounding white land expropriation in South Africa?

When I first read the question, I was thinking "exportation -- hmmm, fuller's earth, bauxite, chalk, or lime? Because some are more profitable than others..." derp. Glad I waited to wake up more fully and got some coffee before answering.

Non-cogent, irrational or unreasonable behaviour, acts of force from government (in this case; moral, ethical and criminal culpability inhered through genetic composition and phenotype variance and compounded with guilt by association of one's assumed forebears) to the extent of depriving life, liberty and property without due process of law (punishment of one's own felonious offence against the life liberty or property of a real person through force or fraud) should alarm any sane person. Blaming someone for their ancestry is beyond untenable, offensive, and the height of intolerance. Using racism to combat racism is as asinine as using cyanide to fight asphyxiation. Watching Angola and Zimbabwe self-destruct over the decades was sad.

I served with a few former Rhodesian military personnel who were forcibly expatriated from Zimbabwe. Watching RSA fall to the Afro-Socialist Vanguard-ism that destroyed the entire region with the ensuing ethno-tribal racism as a Soviet experiment to destabilize Western Europe by incapacitating their former colonies through knowingly selling an even more broken form of Socialism (were that even possible) than what the Russians had oppressed themselves with is an epic tragedy of historic proportion. I still get mildly upset at the lies, damn lies, and Marxist claptrap lapped up and regurgitated by the American Statist news media (and BBC) over the scorched earth politics practiced in the south of the African Continent in the latter 20th Century that was and still is promulgated to the outside world.

My hope was that SA would overcome its illiberalism and unique paleo-darwinistic view that African tribes were (somehow through the magic of science) less evolved than Europeans, and return to its Common Law/Evangelical roots that all humans are of one brotherhood each equal one to another. But they failed. The Statists through Socialist action won. Black is the new White, Whites are the old Black, Coloureds (their legal terms) are still just as marginalized and disaffected as ever and there is even less legal recourse to Liberty and Equality. Like Zimbabwe it will start a genocide against those of European descent, Coloured (mixed ancestry) will continue to be despised by both, and like both Zimbabwe and Venezuela, SA will will destroy itself. Socialists will continue to blame all else but their own damn fool Statist zealotry.

***Narland needs another cup of coffee. :)

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:As much as I hate rules, we should implement a comment a day minimum, so our chat doesn't die.

If you see the last comment was 18 hours ago, go ahead and post something, ANYTHING.

we're all interesting people. Ask questions, publish manifestos, rant, meme, whatever.

Like dictatorial Libertarianism? You will exercise your prerogatives or else we will leave you alone!

Rateria, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order, Miri Islands

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:Giants are subhuman.

Technically it is dwarves that would be subhuman. Giants would be superhuman. Showerheads at the wrong height are always evil, but not as evil as government mandated toilets that have to be flushed multiple times defeating the purpose of low water usage.

Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Skaveria wrote:As much as I hate rules, we should implement a comment a day minimum, so our chat doesn't die.

If you see the last comment was 18 hours ago, go ahead and post something, ANYTHING.

we're all interesting people. Ask questions, publish manifestos, rant, meme, whatever.

Thank you for encouraging chat in Libertatem. Those of us who do not have Discord sometimes wait a few days for a post in which to reply.

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:As much as I hate rules, we should implement a comment a day minimum, so our chat doesn't die.

If you see the last comment was 18 hours ago, go ahead and post something, ANYTHING.

we're all interesting people. Ask questions, publish manifestos, rant, meme, whatever.

No

Miencraft, Highway Eighty-Eight

This is late but happy pride month to all the lovely lgbt+ tatemites!!

Rateria, West Smolcasm, Highway Eighty-Eight

Jadentopian Order wrote:This is late but happy pride month to all the lovely lgbt+ tatemites!!

Yes, happy pride month y'all.

Rateria, West Smolcasm, Highway Eighty-Eight

New poll in Zentari. Come and vote!

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=143365

Rateria

Jadentopian Order wrote:This is late but happy pride month to all the lovely lgbt+ tatemites!!

Skaveria wrote:Yes, happy pride month y'all.

Pride month is a but of a touchy subject for me. On one hand it is great to feel pride in yourself but on the other hand it's working against the movement. Seeing scantily clad men in leather and strapons doesn't seem like the way forward In trying to get the rest of the country to not see them as moral heathens. When you throw kids into the mix like Desmond is amazing or lactatia it becomes a big problem for even people who otherwise wouldn't care. They see these people as dangerous to their kids and become fearful of them. It's not what we want. We want acceptance and at the very least tolerance. The best way to do it is to make the community seem like up standing citizens. That is the way forward not making the community seem like moral degenerates out to sexualize kids. Just my thoughts

Miri Islands wrote:Pride month is a but of a touchy subject for me. On one hand it is great to feel pride in yourself but on the other hand it's working against the movement. Seeing scantily clad men in leather and strapons doesn't seem like the way forward In trying to get the rest of the country to not see them as moral heathens. When you throw kids into the mix like Desmond is amazing or lactatia it becomes a big problem for even people who otherwise wouldn't care. They see these people as dangerous to their kids and become fearful of them. It's not what we want. We want acceptance and at the very least tolerance. The best way to do it is to make the community seem like up standing citizens. That is the way forward not making the community seem like moral degenerates out to sexualize kids. Just my thoughts

Yeah I agree with that. It's counter productive, sometimes people are literally naked at pride parades. Assless chaps and body paint don't make you seem like a responsible citizen.

Then again, people can do whatever the hell they want. I think people have the right to walk around naked if they want. The human body isn't inherently sexual unless it's in a sexual situation.

Skaveria wrote:Yeah I agree with that. It's counter productive, sometimes people are literally naked at pride parades. Assless chaps and body paint don't make you seem like a responsible citizen.

Then again, people can do whatever the hell they want. I think people have the right to walk around naked if they want. The human body isn't inherently sexual unless it's in a sexual situation.

I'm not saying it should be illegal. I just find it annoying when these people complain about people not liking them, being homophobic, etc and they go out and grind on eachother in the streets making hyper-sexualized poses and gestures. It's counter productive is all and I figured they would get the idea unless they fundamentally don't understand the people who don't like them

Miencraft, Skaveria

Yes congratulations on being a sodomite, great job you're all doing

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Kongeriget Island wrote:Yes congratulations on being a sodomite, great job you're all doing

If you are going to heaven I would much rather burn in hell for an eternity than have to live the rest of my existence in heaven with you

Rateria, West Smolcasm

Sorry that was mean, I meant to say that I will come to Iceland and give you a swirlie in the most disgusting toilet I can find.

Rateria, West Smolcasm

Trump administration is forcing pharmaceutical advertisements to fully disclose cost of drugs. It is also requiring the companies running rebates or discounts to offer it to the patient instead of the middlemen. Is there justification for ordinate full-disclosure (or transparency) and truth-in-advertising from the HHS, or should the People be able to demand this on their own without govt. intervention?

My thoughts are in favor of truth-in-advertising laws that prevent all the usually suspects with snake oil salesman quackery (bait-and-switch, low-balling, etc) as long as it done through an appropriate lawful agency (such as the person's States Attorneys Generals, their delegated offices, FBI where appropriate) by an aggrieved party, but never by fiat through the HHS, FDA, or FCC which for the sake of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (in the distinctly Americanist POGG sense). I also think that schools should go back to teaching education instead of just calling their schooling education, so that it is second nature to the Citizen to question such questionable practices and reject the tyranny of the mind under which they have allowed themselves to suffer.

I have to agree. Part of the problem of high medical bills is partly due to a lack of transparency. People have no idea how much drugs and procedures will cost. There's this funny meme where this guy got bit by a rattle snake and it caused something like 150k in health care expenses related to the bite and one comment said "I would have just died". When I went to the hospital for a severe burn I had no idea how much it was going to cost. An ambulance ride to a burn center was $800!!! Thankfully most of it was covered by insurance but the medical costs are outrageous and having drug companies tell customers how much their drugs cost is a good first step

Rateria, Jadentopian Order

Jadentopian Order wrote:If you are going to heaven I would much rather burn in hell for an eternity than have to live the rest of my existence in heaven with you

Hell's where all the sinners are anyways, and sinners are just more fun to be around.

Rateria

Miri Islands wrote:Pride month is a but of a touchy subject for me. On one hand it is great to feel pride in yourself but on the other hand it's working against the movement. Seeing scantily clad men in leather and strapons doesn't seem like the way forward In trying to get the rest of the country to not see them as moral heathens. When you throw kids into the mix like Desmond is amazing or lactatia it becomes a big problem for even people who otherwise wouldn't care. They see these people as dangerous to their kids and become fearful of them. It's not what we want. We want acceptance and at the very least tolerance. The best way to do it is to make the community seem like up standing citizens. That is the way forward not making the community seem like moral degenerates out to sexualize kids. Just my thoughts

Miri Islands wrote:I'm not saying it should be illegal. I just find it annoying when these people complain about people not liking them, being homophobic, etc and they go out and grind on eachother in the streets making hyper-sexualized poses and gestures. It's counter productive is all and I figured they would get the idea unless they fundamentally don't understand the people who don't like them

Mine is just one opinion out of many, but I've come to something of a realization: I don't particularly care what reasons a person might cite when they say they hate me, especially when it comes to LGBT issues.

As society's changed, so too have the narratives surrounding gender and sexual minorities. A rhetoric of hate continues to spread regardless of how often it's beaten back; no matter how much society validates the various colors of the rainbow, some folks just want to maintain their black-and-white way of thinking and will keep flipping the script to justify it. And the thing is that they really don't have to; they probably won't change even if one were to fully exhaust their list of reasons to hate gay and trans people. They don't need a legitimate reason, really - they just do.

This bigotry has a number of direct and indirect causes and effects; this is to be expected, seeing as it's one of many small aspects of the concept of human identity. I can no more sum up, in few words, why a bigot thinks the way they do than I could sum up why I am the way I am. For this reason, I'm not obliged to respond to whatever flavor of the month this sort of thing takes; I don't have to conduct extensive research to kiss my fiancée, I don't have to win a debate in order to put on a dress, and I don't have to schedule a psychiatric appointment on behalf of anyone who takes issue with me. Don't get me wrong - I used to jump through hoops to try to make myself valid in the eyes of other people, and even after I gave up on that, I'd make a habit of trying to convince people of my validity despite my lack of conformity. The truth is, though, that these endeavors are hardly necessary - I've learned that my self-worth is derived not from how others judge me but from how I perceive myself.

That's what makes pride so appealing to me; anyone who thinks it's because the LGBT movement has something to prove is missing the point. Pride is our way of saying "I'm here, I exist, and I'm not going away anytime soon." It's not a request for permission to be included in society, it's not a recruitment drive for public support, and it's not a plea to be taken seriously - instead, it is exactly what it should be: a celebration of our diversity and uncompromising dedication to just being who we are. If people choose to perceive it as dangerous, unwholesome, or degenerate, that's on them. I can't decide what people think of me, no matter how much I may try; rather, my choice is whether I should be true to myself, and the thing I love about pride is that it's such an empowering encouragement to make my answer a resounding "yes."

Rateria, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order, Highway Eighty-Eight

Miencraft wrote:Hell's where all the sinners are anyways, and sinners are just more fun to be around.

Satan: Do you regret your actions?

Me (In unimaginable pain): No, I got to meet all of my favorite celebrities. The pain is wor-

*Bill Clinton walks through the gates of Hell*

Me: LET ME OUUUUTTTTT

Miencraft, Rateria, Skaveria

You guys should check out the Joe Rogan, as well as the Rubin Report, interviews with Michael Malice. He wrote a good book that outlines the origin of the particular political circumstances we find ourselves in. He even chases it back to it's Paleo-conservative/Paleo-Libertarian/Anarchist roots. I'm talking pre-Ron Paul 2012. He goes ALL the way back.

I had a similar idea for a book after noticing that everybody in the anime club I was in at my high school (I'm not really into anime, I went there for a girl I had a crush on) either went fully tumblr or fully 4chan.

I had a title, but that was about it. It was gonna be called : Nerds are conservative, Geeks are Liberal, an inside look into the internet culture war.

I wasn't really researched on my politics until 2015, so before that I was just a vaguely liberal high school student, which is what you get through government education.

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:You guys should check out the Joe Rogan

thats crazy, I love Joe Rogan, you ever done DMT?

Rateria

Narland wrote:Trump administration is forcing pharmaceutical advertisements to fully disclose cost of drugs. It is also requiring the companies running rebates or discounts to offer it to the patient instead of the middlemen. Is there justification for ordinate full-disclosure (or transparency) and truth-in-advertising from the HHS, or should the People be able to demand this on their own without govt. intervention?

My thoughts are in favor of truth-in-advertising laws that prevent all the usually suspects with snake oil salesman quackery (bait-and-switch, low-balling, etc) as long as it done through an appropriate lawful agency (such as the person's States Attorneys Generals, their delegated offices, FBI where appropriate) by an aggrieved party, but never by fiat through the HHS, FDA, or FCC which for the sake of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (in the distinctly Americanist POGG sense). I also think that schools should go back to teaching education instead of just calling their schooling education, so that it is second nature to the Citizen to question such questionable practices and reject the tyranny of the mind under which they have allowed themselves to suffer.

Ideally I would like for people to be able to actuate this change without the government getting involved. I'm concerned though that the government is so intrenched in the healthcare regulatory system that change would be dificult if not impossible to affect without massive limitation of the alphabet soup of bureaucracies, which I would love to see happen. I would prefer that this requirement be decided by congress rather than the executive though, even if they "delegated" the regulatory powers to the appropriate agency.

Narland

Jadentopian Order wrote:thats crazy, I love Joe Rogan, you ever done DMT?

Yeah bro, it's preposterous stuff man, chimps are viscous; muscles like corded steel man. Pot makes you more aware.

Jadentopian Order

Miri Islands wrote:I have to agree. Part of the problem of high medical bills is partly due to a lack of transparency. People have no idea how much drugs and procedures will cost. There's this funny meme where this guy got bit by a rattle snake and it caused something like 150k in health care expenses related to the bite and one comment said "I would have just died". When I went to the hospital for a severe burn I had no idea how much it was going to cost. An ambulance ride to a burn center was $800!!! Thankfully most of it was covered by insurance but the medical costs are outrageous and having drug companies tell customers how much their drugs cost is a good first step

Ever since that Statist (government dominated service fully controlling a lowest bidder their (lowest bidder's) equipment, training, and procedures) 911 System was put in place (here in the late 70s to mid 80s) amid our futile protest, we (our family, neighbors and friends) have unwritten agreements to take each other to the hospital unless it is a beyond a corpsman's ability to stabilize. Before that, Ambulance service was a volunteer arm of the Fire Department, Community, or Hospital with medically trained people filling the billet. It is amazing how much "Progressivists" have regressed our Freedom and Liberty to the point of gross inefficiency. Not to say the people caught in the system aren't doing an outstanding job in most cases, but it is in spite of the oppressive system that forces them to bleed the taxpayer dry.

When I was a kid (IDK when I became my Grandfather) a really good snake bite kit could be had for about $50, and a cheap one (not recommended) for anywhere from 25c to $12.50. It was a part of any basic first aide kit kept in a car or hiking backpack, or in our saddlebags when riding herd.

***Begin Anecdote Alert***

I grew up on a ranch in rattle-snake country. There were so many one summer that some of us boys (i think i was 8) would each catch the biggest rattler we could find. We would then wire its mouth shut with baling wire, hold them near the tail end, and then chase the girls (our cousins and their friends) with the snakes. Some of us were having a great time until Grandpa showed up.

I have never been punished so harshly in my life. Grandpa would calmly give us a lecture on what it is we were about to be punished for. Then he would wait until evening (or sometimes the next day to announce/administer the punishment) I still remember the reasons: 1. reckless disregard for others 2. wanton cruelty to animals and 3. playing the hooligan (as Grandma called it, or jack-assery as Grandpa put it) for the assault.

***End Anecdote Alert***

Rateria

Post self-deleted by Narland.

Skaveria wrote:You guys should check out the Joe Rogan, as well as the Rubin Report, interviews with Michael Malice. He wrote a good book that outlines the origin of the particular political circumstances we find ourselves in. He even chases it back to it's Paleo-conservative/Paleo-Libertarian/Anarchist roots. I'm talking pre-Ron Paul 2012. He goes ALL the way back.
:) to Wm F Buckly Jr? :)

Skaveria wrote:I had a similar idea for a book after noticing that everybody in the anime club I was in at my high school (I'm not really into anime, I went there for a girl I had a crush on) either went fully tumblr or fully 4chan.
***Narland wishes he could say that***

Skaveria wrote:I had a title, but that was about it. It was gonna be called : Nerds are conservative, Geeks are Liberal, an inside look into the internet culture war.
That is an intriguing observation. The problem with the geek-nerd-dweeb-dork-twerp taxa are its changing meanings that vary in time and place. Nerd and geek seemed to swap meanings for about 20 years here and then flopped back again in the early 2010s. Our Cosplay group (please don't snicker) prefers nerdity to geekery but the more radical Leftist in our group does prefer the term geek. The Cosplay community seems to be comprised of mostly bohemian-esque apoliticals who enjoy the hobby for the hobby's sake (and gravitate to Libertarianism while hostile to Establishmentarianism rife in both parties) but many seem to be self-loathing Leftists using Cosplay as escapism). But then what is a Voltron-loving Paleo-conservative Classical Liberal sympathetic to the cause of Liberty to do? What a great time to be alive.

Skaveria wrote:I wasn't really researched on my politics until 2015, so before that I was just a vaguely liberal high school student, which is what you get through government education.
To never letting public schooling interfere with one's education is the beginning of erudition. Or as my grandfather used to say, "Never let public schooling interfere with your education."

Malice's "The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics." looks like a book worth reading. Thanks for bringing it up.

Rateria, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order, West Smolcasm

Narland wrote:To never letting public schooling interfere with one's education is the beginning of erudition.

Just want to say that I've always loved the quote your statement is based on.

My story's kind of the inverse of Skaveria's, though; I leaned conservative on most issues (even those that, in retrospect, made very little sense to me) and didn't have much tolerance for anything liberal until high school ended and I stopped hearing impressionable peers (pathetically attempt to) parrot the common talking points of leading Democrats. Now I'm something of an ideological amoeba - morality is disappointingly flexible, so I've started to judge politicians and policies on their practical merits and ramifications instead.

If only schools were for raising generations of scholars instead of workers - a lack of critical thinking is the bane of political discourse, but critical thinking is in short supply wherever the Department of Education is involved.

Narland, Rateria, Venomringo, Skaveria

I can't believe it's already been two years without Condy. Time sure flies

Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm

Very interesting article! The Trump campaign is working on a pathway to 270 electoral votes through New Mexico, Nevada and New Hampshire. Trump lost all of these states in 2016, but only lost NH and NV by a few thousand votes.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/04/trump-campaign-2020-election-map-1352437

Howdy y'all.

I can't recall if I was ever in this region before, but I was inactive in the dead Realism and RP region for a while before reviving into Lazarus, and this seemed like one of the better places for me to come.

Patridam is capitalist and pro-personal liberty, I'm aiming to be classified as Capitalizt but the Rand index is tough. I don't do a ton of political RP, I more enjoy the economic and cultural parts of the country than the government itself. I hope cold war era PT is okay?

I just wanted to introduce myself, see how active this place is, and see about how I'd get citizenship and/or on the map.

Rateria

Patridam wrote:Howdy y'all.

I can't recall if I was ever in this region before, but I was inactive in the dead Realism and RP region for a while before reviving into Lazarus, and this seemed like one of the better places for me to come.

Patridam is capitalist and pro-personal liberty, I'm aiming to be classified as Capitalizt but the Rand index is tough. I don't do a ton of political RP, I more enjoy the economic and cultural parts of the country than the government itself. I hope cold war era PT is okay?

I just wanted to introduce myself, see how active this place is, and see about how I'd get citizenship and/or on the map.

Howdy, citizenship is a mandatory five day wait. We don't do much RP here. We do have interesting conversations though and we have a discord.

Rateria

Skaveria wrote:Howdy, citizenship is a mandatory five day wait. We don't do much RP here. We do have interesting conversations though and we have a discord.

I see the political discussions, they look pleasant enough. So I'd take it the talk on discord is soley focused on real world topics and not our nations?

If I were to be become a citizen (after 5+ days of course, I understand why) is there a regional map?

Rateria

Patridam wrote:I see the political discussions, they look pleasant enough. So I'd take it the talk on discord is soley focused on real world topics and not our nations?

If I were to be become a citizen (after 5+ days of course, I understand why) is there a regional map?

Our Discord is just an extension of this community so all things related to the Libertatem political process occur as well as general tomfoolery occur there

Rateria

Venomringo wrote:Our Discord is just an extension of this community so all things related to the Libertatem political process occur as well as general tomfoolery occur there

Yes, Realism and RP was like that too.

So, I take it no map then, given the responses. Not trying to be a broken record but it's just something I've had trouble with in every region I've tried, that all the maps have been full or out of date or nonexistent. I just wanted some geography to help base my factbooks off of.

Rateria

Patridam wrote:If I were to be become a citizen (after 5+ days of course, I understand why) is there a regional map?

Technically yes but I've stopped upkeeping it and I don't have plans to reboot it any time soon. You can probably still find it if you dig through my factbooks, it's accurate enough for what little RP we have done here.

Narland, Rateria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:If you want to he involved in our community, please note:

1. You will have to put up with a cocktail of long-haired hppies

So, my parents.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:self-righteous Bible thumpers, ignorant Americans

So, pretty much everyone else I grew up with.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:obsessive gun-nuts, militant Republicans, the Jewish Deepstate

So, me.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:homosexual mobsters, the asocial Fascist, and those Satanists hiding under beds and behind closed doors.

Sounds like a Neil Gaiman novel.

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:

2. My faith is the true faith of Libertatem, don't believe the heretics. Obey the Church of the Holy Longboat.

3. There aren't many rules. Rules are super-duper dumb.

These would appear to be contradictory.

Narland, Rateria, Highway Eighty-Eight

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:homosexual mobsters,

Nyeh, if you know what's good for you, you'll cut the slander, nyeh. Else you'll be sleepin' wit' de fishes, see?

Rateria, Highway Eighty-Eight

West Smolcasm wrote:Nyeh, if you know what's good for you, you'll cut the slander, nyeh. Else you'll be sleepin' wit' de fishes, see?

It's Myah see? Not, Nyeh see? Myaah!

Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm, Highway Eighty-Eight

Patridam wrote:Howdy y'all.

I can't recall if I was ever in this region before, but I was inactive in the dead Realism and RP region for a while before reviving into Lazarus, and this seemed like one of the better places for me to come.

Patridam is capitalist and pro-personal liberty, I'm aiming to be classified as Capitalizt but the Rand index is tough. I don't do a ton of political RP, I more enjoy the economic and cultural parts of the country than the government itself. I hope cold war era PT is okay?

I just wanted to introduce myself, see how active this place is, and see about how I'd get citizenship and/or on the map.

Welcome to Libertatem. Libertatem RP tends to be very rare, impromptu and relatively short lasting at most a bantering of 10 or so posts. I am one of those Liberty-lubbing Murikans, a pre-Burkean Paleo-Conservative Classical Liberal that I guess fits in the ignorant American category (genus: americanus indoctore ignarissimi) with occasional Bible-thumping, and gunnutting. My militancy is in small r republicanism not in the Establishment GOP which has lost its way far from the ideals of the GOP founders. I hope you enjoy it here.

Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

So, if the people here not from the U.S don't know. The price on store tags doesn't include tax. It only shows what the store is charging and the tax is added at the till.

Usually lefties say we should be more like Europe and the business owner's should include tax in the price; I think not.

What if, instead, we make it a responcibility of the IRS to come through and post the tax on each item?

It's the government giving us the bill. They should post how much it is. No other institutions make you do the math yourself to get the damn price.

Miencraft, Narland, West Smolcasm

Post self-deleted by Narland.

[quote=west_smolcasm;35590444]Just want to say that I've always loved the quote your statement is based on.[/quote] Thanks. My grandfather was a WW2 Vet, unsung hero, and had a rapier wit. He helped make the world a much better place. [/quote]

[quote=west_smolcasm;35590444]My story's kind of the inverse of Skaveria's, though; I leaned conservative on most issues (even those that, in retrospect, made very little sense to me) and didn't have much tolerance for anything liberal until high school ended and I stopped hearing impressionable peers (pathetically attempt to) parrot the common talking points of leading Democrats. Now I'm something of an ideological amoeba - morality is disappointingly flexible, so I've started to judge politicians and policies on their practical merits and ramifications instead. [/quote] Pragmatic Utilitarianism -- the Great American Fallback™ :)

[quote=west_smolcasm;35590444]If only schools were for raising generations of scholars instead of workers - a lack of critical thinking is the bane of political discourse, but critical thinking is in short supply wherever the Department of Education is involved.[/quote]

I do not think they teach anything but wishful thinking/magical thinking either vocationally or academically anymore. They certainly no longer teach one how to be feasibly autodidact as to the degree that maturity warrants, nor do they instill a love for or desire to the arts and sciences as a great life-long adventure. They no longer teach what meaningful employ (as an trade, vocation, occupation, or profession either academically or vocationally) entails in a free and open market whether for oneself or another, or what it takes to make one's way in this world with beneficence, industry (hard work) and enterprise (risk taking in offering a product or service) as part of Civics and Civic Virtue as a responsible self-governing individual. Being taught to "Go to college or go out and flip burgers" is not an education.

***begin anecdote alert***

They changed our county public school system i was in in the 4th grade. It had been using what is sometimes referred to as American Eclectic Classical Education Model (a mixed and graduated Trivium and Quadrivium with Civic Virtue and self-government subjects in their own right)and a lot of the old-school* teachers were fired or quit. The elementary school went from a Pioneer/Western (States) Style grammar school to the NEA domineered Progressive Modern Education model primary school that immediately dumbed us down almost two grades --that is not a hyperbole. (Thanks a lot Dewey!) I am saddened that most high school graduates are functioning at a 4th to 8th grade academic level with the current Common Core, and Colleges and Universities must play catch up. Many of them have embraced the age and lowered their Liberal Arts Associate's curricula to a High School level or less.

*no pun intended

***end anecdote alert***

Rateria, West Smolcasm

Skaveria wrote:So, if the people here not from the U.S don't know. The price on store tags doesn't include tax. It only shows what the store is charging and the tax is added at the till.

Usually lefties say we should be more like Europe and the business owner's should include tax in the price; I think not.

What if, instead, we make it a responcibility of the IRS to come through and post the tax on each item?

It's the government giving us the bill. They should post how much it is. No other institutions make you do the math yourself to get the damn price.

The IRS: they know if you're lying about how much you're supposed to pay, but they won't tell you how much you're supposed to pay.

Narland, Rateria, West Smolcasm

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:You will have to put up with a cocktail of long-haired hippies

Hey...

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:homosexual mobsters

HEY

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:ignorant Americans

HEY!

Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Skaveria, West Smolcasm, Highway Eighty-Eight

Skaveria wrote:So, if the people here not from the U.S don't know. The price on store tags doesn't include tax. It only shows what the store is charging and the tax is added at the till.

Usually lefties say we should be more like Europe and the business owner's should include tax in the price; I think not.

What if, instead, we make it a responcibility of the IRS to come through and post the tax on each item?

It's the government giving us the bill. They should post how much it is. No other institutions make you do the math yourself to get the damn price.

I've been in favor of removing sales taxes as they are inherently a regressive tax and puts extra unnecessary cost on consumers. IDK why lefties don't want to remove those taxes if they want to help the poor

Skaveria, West Smolcasm

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Miri Islands wrote:I've been in favor of removing sales taxes as they are inherently a regressive tax and puts extra unnecessary cost on consumers. IDK why lefties don't want to remove those taxes if they want to help the poor

Have I mentioned I love living in Oregon B)

Narland

Narland wrote: I am saddened that most high school graduates are functioning at a 4th to 8th grade academic level with the current Common Core, and Colleges and Universities must play catch up. Many of them have embraced the age and lowered their Liberal Arts Associate's curricula to a High School level or less.

*no pun intended

***end anecdote alert***

I have to agree. Outside of my AP class the entire school was completely devoid of critical thinking. Yet seemingly all of them were going to college to "get a good job" but when asked what degree they were going for it was crickets if not they would answer "a bachelor's". I think part of the problem is they see education as something to sit through instead of an opportunity to learn. It makes me wonder why we even enfore truancy laws it would free up lots of resources for people who actually care. Get people literate then let them do what they want. Just my 2cents

Rateria

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

West Smolcasm wrote:Have I mentioned I love living in Oregon B)

In LA county it's something ludicrous like 10% sales tax

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

What if we removed all taxes

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:You should be ashamed.

Not my fault I live here. At least I'm in the middle of nowhere where California doesn't give a

Post by Highway Eighty-Eight suppressed by a moderator.

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