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Region: Libertatem

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The WAD is worse than the EU. At least the EU pretends to care about free trade

Rateria

1 minute ago: Hyderbourg approved the World Assembly proposal "Repeal "Humanitarian Aid Expansion Act"".

best feeling ever

Macona

So I am staying with my parents while I find a new house. Now they are staunch republicans and for the past 3 days I have been subject to the Republican National convention.

I need a martini, or 2 or 3

MakeAmericadrunkagain

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Tobellya

Kumquat Cove wrote:So I am staying with my parents while I find a new house. Now they are staunch republicans and for the past 3 days I have been subject to the Republican National convention.

I need a martini, or 2 or 3

MakeAmericadrunkagain

Reminds me of visiting my Dad and everyone around the table is having a respectful, intelligent political discussion (unheard of, right?) at Thanksgiving and he pipes up with, "I'm voting for Trump because he will keep those illegals out."

*hangs head in shame*

New Jaslandia, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Salton Juncture, Nova Condealism

Muh Roads wrote:Because we dont recognize the WAD as anything but a citizen.

That's shortsighted. He has power as a WAD whether we like it or not. This legislation keeps him accountable. Isn't that good?

Miencraft wrote:The World Assembly as a whole is contrary to our fundamental ideologies, and legitimizing it is dangerous in the long run. What we should be encouraging instead of this is that our nations do not participate in the WA, but if they really want to, they're free to do so without any government regulation on our part. They get enough of that from the WA.

But this isn't about individual nations, it's about the delegate. Isn't it better to hold him accountable for the power he already has by publishing his voting records and such?

The Great Democratic Republic wrote:But this isn't about individual nations, it's about the delegate. Isn't it better to hold him accountable for the power he already has by publishing his voting records and such?

No. The Delegate is just a citizen like everyone else. His position is not important, nor is how he handles it.

What's wrong with Trump? He's much better than Clinton

Republic Of Minerva wrote:What's wrong with Trump? He's much better than Clinton

Well he diiiiiiiiid call for killing the families of terrorists (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politics/donald-trump-terrorists-families/).

And uses personal and borderline insane insults against his opponents (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/11855165/Trump-on-Fiorina-Look-at-that-face.-Would-anyone-vote-for-that.html) (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/may/03/donald-trump/donald-trumps-ridiculous-claim-linking-ted-cruzs-f/).

Also not to forget his infamous call to ban Muslims from entering the country.

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Salton Juncture

Teuberland wrote:Well he diiiiiiiiid call for killing the families of terrorists (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politics/donald-trump-terrorists-families/).

And uses personal and borderline insane insults against his opponents (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/11855165/Trump-on-Fiorina-Look-at-that-face.-Would-anyone-vote-for-that.html) (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/may/03/donald-trump/donald-trumps-ridiculous-claim-linking-ted-cruzs-f/).

Also not to forget his infamous call to ban Muslims from entering the country.

Okay go vote for HiLLARY weakling, cuz we are gointg to make america great again. also terrorists deserve it

trump 2016

Teuberland

I have family that will be voting for Trump... >.<

I... honestly can't say I disagree with their claim that he's better than Hillary, but I still could only have brought myself to vote for him in one situation -- one that will now never come to fruition, so it's a moot point.

I really dislike this year in politics.

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Teuberland, Bastians, Nova Condealism

The Great Democratic Republic wrote:That's shortsighted. He has power as a WAD whether we like it or not. This legislation keeps him accountable. Isn't that good?

Everything I post is shortsided with an order of pancakes.

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Okay go vote for HiLLARY weakling, cuz we are gointg to make america great again. also terrorists deserve it

trump 2016

Yikes.

Rateria, Teuberland, Bastians

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Okay go vote for HiLLARY weakling, cuz we are gointg to make america great again. also terrorists deserve it

trump 2016

Both Trump and Hillary would violate the Constitution to no end, but Trump has more unconstitutional proposals and plans than any candidate I've ever seen.

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Teuberland

Salton Juncture wrote:Both Trump and Hillary would violate the Constitution to no end, but Trump has more unconstitutional proposals and plans than any candidate I've ever seen.

That's the real crux of the matter isn't it? I hate being forced into damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. I'll probably vote third-party. I might not even like the third party policies, but can we have someone with a touch of integrity and human decency for Pete's sake?

New Jaslandia, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Teuberland, Libertitad, Salton Juncture, Nova Condealism

I try to violate the Constitution errday

Rateria, Teuberland, Bastians, Libertitad

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Okay go vote for HiLLARY weakling, cuz we are gointg to make america great again. also terrorists deserve it

trump 2016

1. Can't vote, but joined my local Libertarian chapter.

2. Would've rather had Petersen win LP nomination.

3. I'm going for Johnson, as he is the closest to Libertarianism that will get noticed.

4. If this is sarcasm, I didn't catch it really.

Bastians, Nova Condealism

Republic Of Minerva wrote:What's wrong with Trump? He's much better than Clinton

We all know who the best choice is

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:I have family that will be voting for Trump... >.<

I... honestly can't say I disagree with their claim that he's better than Hillary, but I still could only have brought myself to vote for him in one situation -- one that will now never come to fruition, so it's a moot point.

I really dislike this year in politics.

Choose the candidate who has pledged to take the swiftest actions.

I like me, I'm coming in at 160,000 m.p.h

Rateria, The United States Of Patriots

Salton Juncture wrote:Both Trump and Hillary would violate the Constitution to no end, but Trump has more unconstitutional proposals and plans than any candidate I've ever seen.

In a choice between the spawn of satan and the actual anti-christ I choose neither

Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Salton Juncture, Nova Condealism, Tobellya

Vote Muh Roads 2016. I'm not old enough yet... 10 more years.. ugh

Rateria, Nova Condealism

Aw. I just got the voting rights issue. I was hoping there'd be the option for voting rights only for those who served in the military, a la Starship Troopers. Service Guarantees Citizenship. Would you like to know more?

Tobellya wrote:Aw. I just got the voting rights issue. I was hoping there'd be the option for voting rights only for those who served in the military, a la Starship Troopers. Service Guarantees Citizenship. Would you like to know more?

I mean, you could dismiss the issue, bomb your political rights, and then say that's what's going on.

Teuberland

Teuberland wrote:1. Can't vote, but joined my local Libertarian chapter.

2. Would've rather had Petersen win LP nomination.

3. I'm going for Johnson, as he is the closest to Libertarianism that will get noticed.

4. If this is sarcasm, I didn't catch it really.

1. LOL good luck wasting your life FAILURE

2. me two cuz he was less of a CUCK than Johnson

3. HA HA yeah noticed and R E J E C T E D

4. Wot

Hyderbourg

Republic Of Minerva wrote:1. LOL good luck wasting your life FAILURE

2. me two cuz he was less of a CUCK than Johnson

3. HA HA yeah noticed and R E J E C T E D

4. Wot

*cries*

Teuberland wrote:*cries*

Not sure if super troll or serious.

Conservative Idealism

Was the Lcrua your doing? I just see the words "ideological gap" and there is only one person that could of influenced them to say that. Regardless it is good to see these ideals live on.

Nova Condealism

Tobellya wrote:Not sure if super troll or serious.

I'm going with trolling.

I'm back. Probably won't catch up on everything that's happened, but will try to ease my way back in.

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Conservative Idealism

Was the Lcrua your doing? I just see the words "ideological gap" and there is only one person that could of influenced them to say that. Regardless it is good to see these ideals live on.

Long story. Let's just say I'm an accidental founding member.

Hello guys...The new update for creating a nation actually got me to create an official puppet for my main nation, VenomRingo (Poptropia) from the IRU. So, yeah...Hi!

Rateria, Nova Condealism

Venomlennon wrote:Hello guys...The new update for creating a nation actually got me to create an official puppet for my main nation, VenomRingo (Poptropia) from the IRU. So, yeah...Hi!

Howdy.

Narland, Rateria, Nova Condealism, Venomlennon

Nova Condealism wrote:I'm back. Probably won't catch up on everything that's happened, but will try to ease my way back in.

Long story. Let's just say I'm an accidental founding member.

I'm in that region ([nation=short]Lord Reagan[/nation]) and are there any actual right-leaning nations besides you and me?

The fate of the Slavs:

https://www.nationstates.net/region=slavija

They couldn't get Slavia back and now seem to have been couped by their own founder.

Slavs are bad trouble, people. Except Czechs. They are cool.

Wow except that I didnt play a role in creating this new government whatsoever, infact, i strongly oppose it.

"Citizens drive tank-like vehicles with mounted machine guns." Yeessss

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Teuberland

It's incredibly discouraging that there's seemingly nowhere in the world better than America for me.

Been getting incredibly sick of how things are going over there. The good getting eliminated, the bad being built up. It's like being on a sinking ship.

But no matter where I look, everywhere else is worse. What a scary thought.

No where to move to. No escape. Just gotta cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Miencraft, Republic Of Minerva, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad, Nova Condealism, Venomlennon

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:It's incredibly discouraging that there's seemingly nowhere in the world better than America for me.

Been getting incredibly sick of how things are going over there. The good getting eliminated, the bad being built up. It's like being on a sinking ship.

But no matter where I look, everywhere else is worse. What a scary thought.

No where to move to. No escape. Just gotta cross your fingers and hope for the best.

To paraphrase Reagan, if the lamp of liberty goes out here, there is no where else to go. Also, it is very true that the price of Liberty is eternal vigilance. To repeat my grandfather, Nothing good ever comes from always taking the path of least resistance or always voting the lesser of two evils. It isn't enough to just love Liberty, we have to resist tyranny in all its forms. We have to engage each other with our minds, our hearts, and our hands in encouragement, resolve, and wise counsel--incessantly.

Miencraft, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad, Salton Juncture, Nova Condealism

Republic Of Minerva wrote:1. LOL good luck wasting your life FAILURE

2. me two cuz he was less of a CUCK than Johnson

3. HA HA yeah noticed and R E J E C T E D

4. Wot

I felt my I.Q. drop while reading that

Miencraft, New Jaslandia, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Teuberland, Salton Juncture, The Great Democratic Republic

Narland wrote:To paraphrase Reagan, if the lamp of liberty goes out here, there is no where else to go. Also, it is very true that the price of Liberty is eternal vigilance. To repeat my grandfather, Nothing good ever comes from always taking the path of least resistance or always voting the lesser of two evils. It isn't enough to just love Liberty, we have to resist tyranny in all its forms. We have to engage each other with our minds, our hearts, and our hands in encouragement, resolve, and wise counsel--incessantly.

Well said.

And people wonder why I'm voting Johnson.

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:It's incredibly discouraging that there's seemingly nowhere in the world better than America for me.

Been getting incredibly sick of how things are going over there. The good getting eliminated, the bad being built up. It's like being on a sinking ship.

But no matter where I look, everywhere else is worse. What a scary thought.

No where to move to. No escape. Just gotta cross your fingers and hope for the best.

http://www.mars-one.com

I'd say Switzerland or Mars for me!

New Jaslandia, Teuberland

Well, due to a poster in NSG challenging me to list unconstitutional stances held by Hillary Clinton, I was forced to look far closer into her beliefs than I'd ever wanted.

Holy hell. And this might be the US's next president.

Thoroughly depressed now.

And f*** this site for blocking profanity.

Miencraft, The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad, Nova Condealism

Im excited for the next president. Things are gonna go bad and hopefully people will look to anarchy.

Teuberland

Muh Roads wrote:Im excited for the next president. Things are gonna go bad and hopefully people will look to anarchy.

Or at least libertarianism.

Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Teuberland, Nova Condealism, Venomlennon

Roads is hungover. Someone bring me a tylenol, a greasy breakfast, a Marlboro red and some coffee

Muh Roads wrote:Im excited for the next president. Things are gonna go bad and hopefully people will look to anarchy.

I legitimately considered burning my passport.

Muh Roads

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:Well, due to a poster in NSG challenging me to list unconstitutional stances held by Hillary Clinton, I was forced to look far closer into her beliefs than I'd ever wanted.

Holy hell. And this might be the US's next president.

Thoroughly depressed now.

Oh, not thoroughly... To make it to thoroughly you should read this: https://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

Muh Roads wrote:Im excited for the next president. Things are gonna go bad and hopefully people will look to anarchy.

You must have several years worth of food, a reliable water source and a small army's worth of ammo stored up.

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:I legitimately considered burning my passport.

That makes no sense. Without that you cannot run away.

http://libertatem.freeforums.net/thread/36/bad-libertopia-muh-roads?page=1#post-84

[nation=short]Hyderbourg[/nation] [nation=short]New_Jaslandia[/nation]

Muh Roads wrote:Im excited for the next president. Things are gonna go bad and hopefully people will look to anarchy.

Anarchy won't ever work...All it takes is one person to gain power and then the whole system just collapses on itself; you're stuck with a government even worse than the whone you had.

New Jaslandia, Libertitad

Venomlennon wrote:Anarchy won't ever work...All it takes is one person to gain power and then the whole system just collapses on itself; you're stuck with a government even worse than the whone you had.

Most likely. Anarchy, after all, assumes a relatively-even distribution of power - utopian thinking.

New Jaslandia, Salton Juncture, Venomlennon

Shirayuki Mizore wrote:Well, due to a poster in NSG challenging me to list unconstitutional stances held by Hillary Clinton, I was forced to look far closer into her beliefs than I'd ever wanted.

Holy hell. And this might be the US's next president.

Thoroughly depressed now.

And f*** this site for blocking profanity.

I kind of want to see this.

Venomlennon wrote:Anarchy won't ever work...All it takes is one person to gain power and then the whole system just collapses on itself; you're stuck with a government even worse than the whone you had.

Wrong. Statist.

Nova Condealism wrote:Most likely. Anarchy, after all, assumes a relatively-even distribution of power - utopian thinking.

Also wrong and statist.

http://www.notbeinggoverned.com/introduction-to-voluntaryism/

Muh Roads wrote:Wrong. Statist.

Also wrong and statist.

Muh Roads wrote:http://www.notbeinggoverned.com/introduction-to-voluntaryism/

The absence of one coercive entity does not preclude the possibility of others springing up, be people "prepared" or not.

Miencraft, Venomlennon

True voluntaryism is minarchism. Look up Auberon Herbert

Nova Condealism

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:Oh, not thoroughly... To make it to thoroughly you should read this: https://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

You must have several years worth of food, a reliable water source and a small army's worth of ammo stored up.

That makes no sense. Without that you cannot run away.

I'm in Japan. Already did the running part.

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:Oh, not thoroughly... To make it to thoroughly you should read this: https://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

That is a really good book. And by that I mean depressing

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:Oh, not thoroughly... To make it to thoroughly you should read this: https://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Character-Discloses-Firsthand-Experience/dp/1455568872/

You must have several years worth of food, a reliable water source and a small army's worth of ammo stored up.

That makes no sense. Without that you cannot run away.

Thank goodness Ive spent my time gathering gu--- I mean um I have an indeterminate number of firearms...

Our people, the people of the plains, have continued their march towards the land shaped like a limp penis.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=251537

Perhaps you know it as California, Oregon, Washington, and parts of Idaho and Montana but we look at the map, and see which lands are not Purple or Yellow. We had lived in these areas before the Coumba and Libertitad came with their paint brushes to defile the land and drove us out.

Now we can enjoy all the colors of the rainbow and can rebuild our numbers, since many of our little ones died on the Trail of Tears.

Please we ask that no citizen nations of Libertatem paint the only lands that we have left to live on any other color.

If you wish to lay claim to the land shaped like a limp penis, please, we ask that you keep it plain, as we are the people of the plains, and only wish to live in peace as we always have.

Nova Condealism wrote:The absence of one coercive entity does not preclude the possibility of others springing up, be people "prepared" or not.

/sigh

http://voluntaryist.com/fundamentals/introduction.html#.V5WR6XTD9nE

Republic Of Minerva wrote:True voluntaryism is minarchism. Look up Auberon Herbert

You too. Government is inherently against voluntaryism.

Muh Roads wrote:/sigh

http://voluntaryist.com/fundamentals/introduction.html#.V5WR6XTD9nE

You too. Government is inherently against voluntaryism.

That's not entirely true: To explain why, I'll have to touch upon some older philosophies.

One of the few Hobbesian assertions I agree with is that people in an anarchy would, without exception, voluntarily form a government - or multiple governments - at some point. The nature of this sort of government, and the "social contract" that precipitated its existence, is an even greater point of contention: Hobbes believed the state necessary to ensure the security of certain natural rights by quashing self-interest; his ideals are often cited, in modern form, by today's authoritarians. Rousseau believed a direct democracy to be the only way to defend said rights; his claims gave rise to several aspects of leftist ideologies. I agree with neither.

In his Second Treatise of Government, John Locke agreed only with Thomas Hobbes' initial point that people in an anarchy would inevitably form a state voluntarily. He did, however, admit that most people would not need a government to ensure they fulfill their moral obligations to others - only to protect them from the unscrupulous few who would harm or enslave them. Therefore, a neutral third party - one dedicated to life, liberty, and property - must exist to prevent or punish any affronts to the rights of the people: such would be a just government, deriving its legitimacy and power solely from the consent of the governed.

However, I do not agree fully with Locke either: Why must an individual who has not infringed upon the rights of others surrender their right to self-defense, or pay taxes, or otherwise defer to the will of a state? Should it not be the government who serves the people, seeing as it exists a tool - and should exist as a mutually-agreed-upon institution - to ensure their natural rights are not violated?

That is why, in addition to supporting the ideal of a pseudo-Lockean government, I also believe in a social contract founded upon individual sovereignty (rather than, say, popular sovereignty, as thinkers like Rousseau would espouse). Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, for instance, believed that no person should surrender their sovereignty to others - that the social contract exists not between man and state, but between man and man. If a state exists for any reason, that reason should be a mutual decision to respect the negative rights of one another, and to obligate the state born of this agreement only to disrupt attempts at coercion, oversee contractual disputes, and hold trial (and, if necessary, pass sentence) when an individual is accused of harming another.

Some of what I'm saying should sound familiar: Indeed, the principle of non-aggression is rooted in some of the ideals I've mentioned. I assert that a minarchy, or "night-watchman state", is the best method of upholding that principle, as it would exist to defend individuals from threats to their own self-governance - particularly, those an anarchy cannot possibly mitigate - with minimal interference in their lives.

Miencraft, Rateria, Venomlennon

Muh Roads wrote:Wrong. Statist.

Also wrong and statist.

Well, I'm not exactly a statist, more like a libertarian, but please tell me why I am wrong though because I cannot possibly ever see anarchy working.

Rateria, Nova Condealism

Nova Condealism wrote:...

In his Second Treatise of Government, John Locke...

Hey thats what I'm reading right now! From what I've read of his writings (so far only his first treatises and his second to around §40 or so) I quite like him. I knew that Locke was one of the main influences to the founding fathers but I had never read them. To any one thinking to read his works DO IT.

New Jaslandia, Republic Of Minerva, Rateria, Nova Condealism

Nova Condealism wrote:...

In his Second Treatise of Government, John Locke...

Hey thats what I'm reading right now! From what I've read of his writings (so far only his first treatises and his second to around §40 or so) I quite like him. I knew that Locke was one of the main influences to the founding fathers but I had never read them. To any one thinking to read his works DO IT.

Rateria, Teuberland, Nova Condealism

Endorse my nation hoodrats lmao !!

my country has military bases in Wyoming and Montana and those places but u can keep the west coast areas of California, Oregon, Washington, and the portion of land in Utah

Coumba wrote:Endorse my nation hoodrats lmao !!

Nah, endorse Minovdigon.

Once we get the ROADS amendment passed, it'll be a crime against the Church of Roads to not do that. Obviously.

Those bases are on land stolen from the plains. Our people, the people of the plains, have lived on those lands for many years, before you came and painted them purple, Coumba. Ask the 2% indigenous population that you claim in your factbook to live in your nation. Probably they are just bruised black and blue from your oppression, and now blend in with your purple map color.

We will not keep the lands in California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana. These lands belong to the plains, we simply live there, and simply live off the lands, in harmony with it, not painting it any color, but leaving it plain as is natural.

Roads are so last year. Muh Guns are what's important now.

Rateria, Teuberland, Salton Juncture

Nova Condealism wrote:Roads are so last year. Muh Guns are what's important now.

Without government who will destroy the history?

Rateria

Coumba wrote:my country has military bases in ... and the portion of land in Utah

HAFB?

>protect private property

>civil rights drop 7%

New Jaslandia

Salton Juncture wrote:>protect private property

>civil rights drop 7%

>Do literally anything

>All freedoms drop to 0

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Shirayuki Mizore, Salton Juncture, The Great Democratic Republic

Nova Condealism wrote:Roads are so last year. Muh Guns are what's important now.
you're getting the hose.

Rateria, Teuberland

Salton Juncture wrote:>protect private property

>civil rights drop 7%

Miencraft wrote:>Do literally anything

>All freedoms drop to 0

>Pass any legislation

>Taxation increases

New Jaslandia, The United States Of Patriots, Bastians, Salton Juncture

anyone know how to make a good national map? like the one we have now in the region map but like i can make state boundaries and put cities down

Teuberland

Coumba wrote:anyone know how to make a good national map? like the one we have now in the region map but like i can make state boundaries and put cities down

http://mapchart.net/usa-counties.html

Coumba wrote:anyone know how to make a good national map? like the one we have now in the region map but like i can make state boundaries and put cities down

Well, you find a map.

Then you draw some lines.

Then you put in some dots and label the dots.

Rateria, Teuberland, The United States Of Patriots

Coumba wrote:anyone know how to make a good national map? like the one we have now in the region map but like i can make state boundaries and put cities down

I would use donjon.bin.sh for random maps. Idk if there are better map-makers, but that one works just fine.

Bonus points for establishing a pixel as being x miles on each side (for example, 30mi x 30mi pixels). Then look at a city you wish to model (e.g. New York City-present day or London c. 1500) and fill in the pixels with the color of your choice.

Teuberland wrote:

Bonus points for establishing a pixel as being x miles on each side (for example, 30mi x 30mi pixels).

Actually, I had mine 4.2mi x 4.2mi per pixel...don't remember why. Do what you think works.

Coumba wrote:anyone know how to make a good national map? like the one we have now in the region map but like i can make state boundaries and put cities down

Get a free student edition of ArcGIS. Download national, state, county boundaries from http://www.naturalearthdata.com/downloads/, add them in, color them, become a cartographer like myself.

It's fun.

Miencraft wrote:Well, you find a map.

Then you draw some lines.

Then you put in some dots and label the dots.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gif

New Jaslandia

Teuberland wrote:I would use donjon.bin.sh for random maps...

My friend has used that for DM'ing--

I mean um, I like to do manly things like wear leather jackets and get in to fights...

how do I just draw lines with map chart.net

Coumba wrote:how do I just draw lines with map chart.net

You could just go find a map of the area you want and draw lines on it with MSPaint.

Teuberland

The only legislation I pass is to increase the military

Always got to be ready

New Jaslandia, Rateria, Teuberland, The United States Of Patriots, Nova Condealism

Sometimes I really wonder why I'm still on this site.

Never come up with an answer, yet I never leave either.

Libertitad

Hey guys, uh a bit embarrased to admit, but I think I am kinda losing some of my previous views. Lots of things I thought made a lot of sense don't really anymore. I have always considered myself socially progressive, well not really progressive because I don't support lots of social issues but I think people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and I still hold most of these views. I still also consider myself to be fiscally conservative, but I used to really be into like privately owned jails and stuff, and I'm really just not digging it anymore, the idea has started to just make me feel icky inside. I read a lot of books on the privatization of these kinds of industries including hospitals and asylums and I just don't think we should be monetizing people like this. For example privatized jails literally have no incentive to offer educational programs unless they are given a larger subsidy for doing so by the government. Even in these cases you see companies going through extensive labor to ensure that this comes at the cheapest price possible, activity like seeking out the most damaged textbooks, hiring underqualified educators, and in some exteme cases the jail will purposefully fail an inmate and still seek subsidization for that inmate as they "tried" and the inmate simply was not cooperative. When one is incarcerated they need to be punished, of course, but at the same time jail is a place to improve oneself and grow as a person, not be reduced to an animal. I've always believed deeply that competition is the best way to help everybody, drive down prices while driving up quality of product, I still to this day believe this to be true. Yet, this model doesn't work in the jail system, why? Because quality is irrelevant to these companies and the consumers are well, the imprisoned and indifferent legislators. If you imagine a company selling candy, of course it's in everyone's best interest to drive down prices, yet there are also strict self imposed regulations on quality as consumers won't buy sawdust, they are rational individuals who will splurge for the best deal, even meaning paying more for quality. These inmates cannot seek imprisonment anywhere else so when these companies are paid for example, 25,000 an inmate, as long as they keep the inmate alive and out of the general population they can pretty much get away with anything (a hyperbole of course, but you do see deprivation of programs that are offered in public institutes and the whole innovation part of prison leaves, why buy equipment for a workshop if you don't have to? Publicly elected or appointed Wardens may want to spend this money on the inmates simply to help them because they are civil servants rather than corporations incomprehensibly scared of their next quarterly report). Even in the previously mentioned case of education, if they get 5000 more for educating an inmate and can offer a passable education for 1000, then they are set, they are not motivated to excel, whereas a public jail is more motivated to spend the money for the general good. Of course the arguement can be made that these criminals get what they deserve, but is this true of patients at mental asylums? I am not defending any particular point, I still love the free market, and I am trying to leave my arguement open to be negated but this has really been bothering me, maybe there is something I am missing? (Of course this is not true of private schools and retirement homes as switching is easy, so I'm trying to focus on forced attendance here). Sorry for typos and a lack of general structure, typed on a whim.

New Jaslandia, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Teuberland, Libertitad

Hyderbourg wrote:Sorry for typos and a lack of general structure, typed on a whim.

Even things typed spontaneously should have paragraphs if they're gonna be that long...

New Jaslandia, The Ambassador To The Clfr, Rateria, Libertitad, Nova Condealism

Hyderbourg wrote:but I think people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and I still hold most of these views. I still also consider myself to be fiscally conservative, but I used to really be into like privately owned jails and stuff, and I'm really just not digging it anymore, the idea has started to just make me feel icky inside. I read a lot of books on the privatization of these kinds of industries including hospitals and asylums and I just don't think we should be monetizing people like this.

The flip side to freedom is the freedom to fail. That means you are free to commit crimes as long as you do not get caught. However, if you find yourself caught, part of that freedom is you now get to own the responsibility for that crime and the consequences that go with it.

I have no problem with making money off of criminals. It is either that or go the way of some of the more draconian nations that require inmates to work for their keep and/or families to pay for their keep while locked up. In lieu of that the inmate doesn't get fed, gets no bedding, no health care, in some cases doesn't even get a cell.

Society already invests a great deal in law enforcement. Getting some of that back from those that make that investment necessary makes sense.

Hyderbourg wrote:For example privatized jails literally have no incentive to offer educational programs unless they are given a larger subsidy for doing so by the government.

You want an education, go to school. What ever led you to believe that a jail was meant to be anything other than a jail?

Hyderbourg wrote:Even in these cases you see companies going through extensive labor to ensure that this comes at the cheapest price possible, activity like seeking out the most damaged textbooks, hiring underqualified educators, and in some exteme cases the jail will purposefully fail an inmate and still seek subsidization for that inmate as they "tried" and the inmate simply was not cooperative.

Again, see the above. This is what happens when jails try to be more than the punishment they are intended to be.

Jails are meant to serve two, and only two purposes.

1. Keep dangerous people off the streets.

2. Punish criminals for their crimes.

Hyderbourg wrote:When one is incarcerated they need to be punished, of course, but at the same time jail is a place to improve oneself and grow as a person, not be reduced to an animal.

That depends on your offense. If you are an animal going in, what makes you think a jail can make someone any different coming out?

The problem you are missing here is that you cannot force anyone to get or accept help. If they do not want the help, nothing you can do is going to change that. Many of these people look at their sentences as nothing more than an inconvenience or break from the streets. The minute they get out they are right back to what they were doing before. When we try to social worker these people, what we do is turn out criminals that are still doing the same thing but they appreciate poetry, Shakespeare and can accurately calculate their percentage of the take.

The ones that are going to sin again are going to do that, educated or not.

Hyderbourg wrote:Yet, this model doesn't work in the jail system, why? Because quality is irrelevant to these companies and the consumers are well, the imprisoned and indifferent legislators.

What leads you to believe that quality is any more of a concern under government control? Criminals are not politically popular among voters. As such it is far from easy to get even the minimum necessary to just house the inmates. I've been inside the walls of many prisons. Trust me, the Feds are the only people that give a hoot and even some of their institutions are down right scary.

The part that you seem to be failing on is that inmates have some right to something beyond meals, minimal shelter and basic healthcare. They do not. That is one of the penalties for being a criminal and getting caught. There are some diversion programs that occasionally work early on in the game. But nationwide, history shows us those prisons will be seeing 70% of their guests again.

There is no point in wasting money on that. If a private entity can do it better and cheaper, then more power to them. Perhaps if we took some of the touchy feely out of prisons, that number might go down.

Miencraft, Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Nova Condealism

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:-snip-

If there were to exist a standard for the definition of "crime" that excludes victimless activities, deincentivizes prosecution for non-violent crimes (with a few possible exceptions, like grand larceny), and encourages more severe sentencing for violent crimes, and if that standard were upheld on a consistent basis without such bureaucratic techniques as profiling or quotas, then I would be inclined to agree on every count.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem likely - even if such a system could be privatized. In the United States today, at least, many people are hoping that jails will turn hardened criminals into productive members of society when, in actuality, the exact opposite is occurring.

The Ambassador To The Clfr wrote:-snip-

Except, your whole premise is flawed because prisons are about rehabilitation as well as punishment, or at least they should be. Our current system of focusing on punishment has led to a system where nearly 77% of released criminals are re-arrested in five years, and of those people, nearly 57% are re-arrested by the end of the first year.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

That doesn't seem like a way to deter criminals; if anything, this system is keeping criminals as criminals. And in many cases, it is so difficult for ex-prisoners to live a normal life after being released (they can't get a job since job applications ask about criminal history, they're denied government benefits, they have difficulty getting housing, they have to pay fees for things such as probation officers, etc.), that these people have no choice but to go back to crime. However, this system does benefit one group of people: the private prisons whose profits are increased by having a bunch of prisoners. What we need is a prison system focused on rehabilitation and education, so these people have useful skills that could be used in a job upon being released, in addition to punishment. We also need to remove a lot of the barriers that prevent ex-prisoners from succeeding after being released.

Kumquat Cove, Rateria, Nova Condealism

New Jaslandia wrote:Except, your whole premise is flawed because prisons are about rehabilitation as well as punishment, or at least they should be. Our current system of focusing on punishment has led to a system where nearly 77% of released criminals are re-arrested in five years, and of those people, nearly 57% are re-arrested by the end of the first year.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

That doesn't seem like a way to deter criminals; if anything, this system is keeping criminals as criminals. And in many cases, it is so difficult for ex-prisoners to live a normal life after being released (they can't get a job since job applications ask about criminal history, they're denied government benefits, they have difficulty getting housing, they have to pay fees for things such as probation officers, etc.), that these people have no choice but to go back to crime. However, this system does benefit one group of people: the private prisons whose profits are increased by having a bunch of prisoners. What we need is a prison system focused on rehabilitation and education, so these people have useful skills that could be used in a job upon being released, in addition to punishment. We also need to remove a lot of the barriers that prevent ex-prisoners from succeeding after being released.

Indeed. So long as we're locking people up on an arbitrary and inconsistent basis, we may as well make every effort we can to prevent them from returning without endangering the public.

Miencraft, New Jaslandia, Kumquat Cove, Rateria

New Jaslandia wrote:Except, your whole premise is flawed because prisons are about rehabilitation as well as punishment, or at least they should be. Our current system of focusing on punishment has led to a system where nearly 77% of released criminals are re-arrested in five years, and of those people, nearly 57% are re-arrested by the end of the first year.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

That doesn't seem like a way to deter criminals; if anything, this system is keeping criminals as criminals. And in many cases, it is so difficult for ex-prisoners to live a normal life after being released (they can't get a job since job applications ask about criminal history, they're denied government benefits, they have difficulty getting housing, they have to pay fees for things such as probation officers, etc.), that these people have no choice but to go back to crime. However, this system does benefit one group of people: the private prisons whose profits are increased by having a bunch of prisoners. What we need is a prison system focused on rehabilitation and education, so these people have useful skills that could be used in a job upon being released, in addition to punishment. We also need to remove a lot of the barriers that prevent ex-prisoners from succeeding after being released.

I would add post release psychological and sociological support. Not only finding jobs, and housing; but help with staying away from bad influences,social skills training refreshing ect.

New Jaslandia, Rateria

Kumquat Cove wrote:I would add post release psychological and sociological support. Not only finding jobs, and housing; but help with staying away from bad influences,social skills training refreshing ect.

Indeed. I'm sure such programs would go a long way toward reducing recidivism and ensuring ex-prisoners become productive members of society.

Kumquat Cove, Rateria

Im tempted to start a consistent and radical libertarian party in the NSG Senate in forum seven. Would anyone be interested in joining and helping?

I've been thinking about something. There's always this talk of some societal oppression on minorities, but as someone who is visibly a minority, I never had this happen to me. Why is that? Am I not tanned enough looking that it doesn't happen? I don't think so. It clearly isn't a community thing because I hear about these people who say they suffered from this oppression. From what I conclude, the thing really breeds this oppression is when the oppressed person is one who really holds their culture/race/ethnicity to their heart, primarily to point of identifying as that communal group.

I myself never did this. Although of Latin descent (paternally), I never celebrated this culture nor ever chose to be connected to it, so essentially I would be acting "white" to other people. For my life so far as well, I acted very individualistic. I never identified with any culture to point of believing I'm part of homogeneous group people and that I'm like all of them and vice versa. Sure, I say I'm American, I say I'm Canadian, but that's because that's how I grew up. I believe that I am an individual, I am not part of some collective which I can apply "societal privileges/prejudices to and I don't "brothers" and "sisters". It may be possible that because I don't make myself some sort of Latin icon, I don't experience the same societal "oppressions".

Now, the extreme identification of culture/race/ethnicity that I speak of can be seen through this example: Many times I see black people who have lived here, and have been raised here by parents who have been the same, and they go around in traditional African clothing as if somehow they are from an African culture in any way.

This, in my view, is a failure in the belief of one's self and now one must become absorbed into a collective in order to live, which ultimately, makes one believe that one is affected by injustices just as others like oneself had presently or historically and in turn, in my opinion, makes that one, more susceptible to these societal injustices that are believed to exist.

Miencraft, Republic Of Minerva, The Ambassador To The Clfr, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Libertitad, Nova Condealism

Republic Of Minerva wrote:Im tempted to start a consistent and radical libertarian party in the NSG Senate in forum seven. Would anyone be interested in joining and helping?

I'd want to join but also could you explain to me what the NSG senate is? I never really figured it out.

Teuberland

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