Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
[eyes narrow]
I miss the good old days when we proved it by inciting revolutions and forcing entire populaces to contend with starvation as a result of central planning
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
... amigx?
Rateria
I would have settled for "sister," "ye who preaches," or "supreme high grand poobah of immaculate awesomeness," but close enough
The New United States, Rateria
I've been the most inactive loser these past four years lmao. Sorry to the old guys who still put up with my presence
Pevvania, Rateria
That's all good, nice to see you drop by!
Rateria
Unless Congress moves to cut spending, this economic boom will soon be replaced by stagnation, crisis and despair. Like President Reagan, Trump's commitment to lower spending has been overshadowed by his incessant focus on pet issues like the border wall and increasing military spending.
It's very simple: the president should declare he will not sign a budget that is not balanced. Not a budget that balances in 2 or 5 or 10 years, a budget that has spending equal revenue. The sycophants and parasites in Congress need to know the old order is dead.
Miencraft, Narland, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots
Every politician is in the pocket of some lobbyist, ergo every politician wants more spending. The only way the massive debt can be reversed is if the whole system collapses, a point which I believe we are rapidly approaching. At least in our lifetimes, the chance is high.
Rateria, Jadentopian Order
Unfortunately you may be right. Sometimes I feel like calamity is the only thing that will show Americans the destructiveness of government. It would certainly be nice if we could get our house in order before that, though.
Rateria
Not that I'm advocating this, but what would happen if the government simply declined to pay the debt in any meaningful capacity? "If you owe the bank ten grand, it's your problem; if you owe the bank ten million, it's the bank's problem" and all that.
Rateria
Pretty much every investor in the US realizing that they have 20 trillion or whatever dollars that are never coming back to them and then probably the entire banking system or whatever collapsing because we just declared 20 trillion dollars of debt meaningless. Then we'd all just be living in a true ancap society because all of the worlds institutions are collapsed
Pevvania, Rateria
And if the institution commanding the most powerful military in human history were to pointedly insist that it isn't a problem?
Rateria
Then a military junta would promtly ensue, then we'd be looking at a revolutionary situation. States would definitely leave, Texas and Cali would be gone in two milliseconds. The rest of us would be talking about overthrowing the government in a 1776-esque fashion.
Rateria
Wow I love the national debt now
Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Jadentopian Order
It wouldn't be a matter of the "junta" overthrowing the government but overthrowing and bringing to justice those who have in the name of government deprived people of their life, liberty, property, and due process falsely in lieu of truth, justice, and due process. Some Red Rural States would seek to prosecute those people who have perverted and subverted the Federal Compact under color of authority and when possible try them for sedition and treason amongst the other crimes they have committed against the States and the People. Lon Horiuchi and Dale Monroe still have warrants for their arrest for murdering Vicky and Sam Weaver in this State, yet the seditious and incalcitrant in the US State Department continues to refuse to bring them to justice.
The smarter State governments would quickly fall back to domestic currencies (Idaho potatoes anyone?) Utah and other states already have declared gold and silver as unconfiscatable currency (unlike the fascist federal grab by FDR when the states did nothing to protect their citizens). There is over 100 years of Socialist and Progressivist abuse in this country that will be remanded in those states if push comes to shove. The states are in and of themselves by right States after all and can function just fine without the Federal Compact (some finer than others mind you). But each state is smart enough to keep trade open with fellow states. We (the States and the People who haven't gone off the cliffs of insanity) can use the same Constitution minus the illiberal amendments, just dissolve the current government and re-elect a new one, dedicated to actually following the Law.
When your local Aussie Kangaroo Warlord️ launches his McReagan Nukes️ at the statist next door due to his existence violating the NAP and turns his yard into a radioactive wateland but thats okay because at least theres no national debt
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/surrealmemes/images/0/0c/Ancap-0.png/revision/latest?cb=20181117193157
Miencraft, Pevvania, Narland, Republic Of Minerva, The United States Of Patriots
Technically, they already do "decline" to pay it. When last did any politician actually try tackling the debt?
Now, if you mean "default" on the debt, that is a whole nother story...
Rateria
If we default on the debt, there's a good chance the yuan could become the world's only reserve currency, which bodes well only if you want your kids speaking Mandarin as a first language.
Rateria
Wrong! Everybody here knows the truth.
Rateria
是的,同志
Miencraft, Pevvania, Rateria
And then China, which has a huge bubble, would lose their top trading partner, and collapse instantly.
And then Indian Superpower will rise from the ashes and conquer the world
Rateria, Jadentopian Order
What does everyone here think of voter ID laws?
Defending the migrant caravan by waxing philosophical on the virtues of immigrants and refugees is some of the most pathetic and meaningless virtue signalling I've ever seen. Let's just ignore their well-documented tendency for violence against border patrol agents, filthy treatment of the streets of Tijuana, rejection (by and large) of work visas and asylum in Mexico, arrests for drunkenness and drug use, and complete and utter lack of respect for borders and laws - THESE ARE DOCTORS AND LAWYERS, YOU MONSTERS!!!
The New United States
I think they're a valid expenditure and expectation. You need a liscense to do all sorts of things, most of which are unnecessary, but I.D is different in that there's no test to get it, It's just to prove who you are to protect the democratic process. Whether it's nessisary or not on an effectiveness basis is irrelevant, it holds on philosophical grounds.
People say that it was designed to disproportionately affect black voters, well, firstly, I'm not sure I believe them, because they make everything a race thing, kind of like the boy who cried wolf, secondly, even if it was designed with race in mind, just because someone does the right thing for the wrong reason, doesn't make it not the right thing. I'm sure all the racists voted against the civil rights act, but it was the right thing to do at the time when considering liberty and freedom of association.
Miencraft, Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria
Yes please thanks. ID is already needed to... do anything. Go to school? ID. Go to work? ID. Drive? ID. Buy alcohol? ID.
Use the singular vote you have each election to decide how you want the country to be governed? Nah, we'll just trust that you are who you say you are, what could go wrong?
Plus people saying this now kinda just come off as kind of racist. It's like, what, are you saying black people are too poor and stupid to go get a photo ID that you can get from practically any government office? Hell, you can get a passport application from a library and the DMV (at least around here) hands out non-driver IDs for cheap or free.
But no it's bad for black people because they're all broke and too stupid to realize they can get ID and will need one for basically everything.
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria
I'm going to argue the other way - why is it so necessary to have a government-approved ID to do certain things? In the United States, we have a government that charges us for the "service" of allowing us to drive on their poorly-maintained roads not only through tax dollars, but through having us fork over some cash, our privacy, our time, and our consent to have a driver's license - not only that, but many of the states mandate that drivers purchase auto insurance out of pocket if they intend to keep that license. Encouraging lawmakers to subject people to this kind of thing just to be able to vote isn't just a call for disenfranchisement; it's a sign that we not only tolerate but encourage this sort of shameless racketeering!
Jadentopian Order
Why am I still not a citizen?
The New United States
I was hoping this would say "I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords" But I was pleasantly surprised
Rateria
To prove beyond any doubt that you are who you claim to be.
I seriously can't follow your line of reasoning at all. Yeah, it sucks that you have to pay a lot to get a driver's license and it sucks being required to buy insurance, but on the other hand, these are giant metal machines that could easily be used to kill people. I don't trust most of the people I see who are licensed to drive; I'm certainly not going to trust people who may or may not have the experience and skills required to properly operate such a machine - though I don't trust the government to be the one to decide who's qualified.
Would your argument be any different if we were talking about pilots' licenses?
But, really, this discussion isn't about drivers' licenses. A driver's license is only one of many sorts of photo ID; you can get ID cards for very little or no cost depending on where you are. And the purpose of photo ID is so that when you say "I'm West Smolcasm", you can show a card with your name and picture on it that proves you're West Smolcasm. And because the point of an ID is to prove your identity - remember that ID literally means "identity document" - it logically follows that, if an ID should be required for nothing else, it should be mandatory to prove that you are indeed a citizen of the country and are legally able to vote when you try to do so. Photo ID is the easiest way to do that because they're literally everywhere.
The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Highway Eight
In that case, I'd say that requiring an ID to vote ought to be contingent on the streamlining of the ID process. As it stands now, it's a testament to the overreach of the state.
As long as they're free, easy to obtain, and handed out to everyone who gets a normal state ID or drivers license. High fees can easily be used to target poor and minority communities. I don't like how easy states could abuse them.
The confederate states were justified in seceding from a government that was attempting to suppress their political power.
Technically they didn't even need a reason.
It's a voluntary union, states should be able to leave whenever the hell they feel like it.
Except that most, if not like all of them, were mainly concerned with slavery.
Miencraft, Rateria
political power used to hold people in slavery is illegitimate
Miencraft, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
How do I give NS Gold
Rateria
"people support this idea that I do not support, therefore they should not have a say in government"
No it's more like "Human beings have certain inherent rights and this practice violates them" Stop pretending slavery is just "an idea".
Miencraft, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Highway Eight
Well, the state of Wisconsin doesn't require individuals to pay for a voter ID, but we still have to have them. Otherwise anyone could vote.
It's sorta like the national IDs they are going to make everyone get to fly interstate, vote in federal elections, etc. People are blowing it out of proportion. If anything, have a Federal and State ID emphasizes the sovereign nature of both entities, and promotes federalism. Seeing how local governments seem detirmed to undermine legitimate laws relating to citizenship and residency, as well as fundamental rights of citizens, I think it's perfectly legitimate for the Fed to enforce their own requirements on who can vote in Federal elections.
Miencraft
A civil war was inevitable with the issue of state vs federal power, it just so happened that it manifested itself in the North vs the South and slavery. It could just as easily have been western states leaving the eastern ones for self-governance, they aren't really connected to the history of the colonies anyways.
blacks aren't human
And as a more serious response, I don't support slavery. The Union was also justified in going to war to stop slavery in the south. The issue is that the process of ending slavery is a demonstration of "ends justify the means" thinking which established that it's okay to null the sovereignty of those who have different views and that it's justified to take over another country and force your way of life upon them. And in this case, it was. But it's a precedent that anyone could potentially find themselves on the short end of.
I wouldn't even say its like that at all the South nullified their sovereignty when they treated fellow human beings as animals. I get what you mean but the South is like the worst possible example
Federalism is a blight on local politics; I live in a state that typically contests federal law when it curtails the rights of the individual. To name a few examples, people here in Oregon are free to purchase, possess, and consume marijuana, to use whichever public bathroom they feel best corresponds to their gender identity, and to walk down the street without fear of being stopped by a cop on the basis of their race - what's more, none of these things have even been cause for controversy here lately. They're all possible because they've been affirmed by state law despite contradicting - to varying degrees - corresponding federal policies.
I contend that a law ceases to be legitimate when it cannot be reliably enforced despite an apparent necessity to curtail an individual's rights in so existing, and I feel that the legislation and enforcement of state and local governments is a much-needed (if not pragmatic) check on the power of the federal government to uphold such.
Takeover by call centres
Pevvania, Rateria
>year is 2020
>World has been annexed by India
>My house gets broken into by a gang of anti-Indian rebels
>call 911 to get help from police
>"Hello, thees is Rajesh, it appears your combuter has a wirus, blease hold sir"
>wait 5 hours until I get connected
>"blease install teamviewer and tybe your credeet card and zocial zecurity informafion into a nodepad dogument sir"
>die from getting stabbed
Miencraft, Pevvania, Rateria
In a free country, I am who I say I am and am for whatever purpose I so desire to identify my person to another so long as I violate no law nor impede any other natural person's life liberty or property. My differing stage/pen names, any DBA's and aliases I use is for my own benefit to further protect myself and my family from uncivil behaviour within, and barbarism, and savagery from without that may be perpetrated against me. It is the duty of a constitutional government to know who the criminals indigent and delinquents within their jurisdiction without infringing on the law abiding citizenry. I can police myself, and live in a jurisdiction where the police are contracted to be peace officers first and foremost. My county registrar knows who I am and the polling precinct only has me sign the registry, as I refuse to show any ID.
In a police state the government tells you who you are for whatever purpose they deem "necessary," regardless of your rights, privileges and immunites as a natural person and you have no say as to the identity of your person or persons. Aliases and anonymity is suspect and seditious. Asserting that the law abiding activities of your person has primacy over the policies of the state is treason.
Either the People tell the government who they are or the government tells the People who they are. There is no middle ground. Thus we march onward from being a once free country to further becoming a more authoritarian Police State.
BTW, IMO voter fraud should be considered treason against the US State, and/or of the Federal Government (the State of these United States) subject to the harshest of penalties including permanently losing one's enfranchisement (including voting rights) as perpetual felons.
Jadentopian Order, West Smolcasm
Hey guys, heard our favourite Christmas song the other day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_mcomyiwYg) so I just wanted to drop by, leave this song here, and wish you all happy Christmas.
Miencraft, Rateria, Venomringo, Fascist Dred, Jadentopian Order
I'm going to learn Icelandic so I can sing this
Rateria
still listen to this
Rateria
Re: voting IDs: Logically, libertarians should oppose all licensing restrictions, and merely stating the obvious "i.e. we need a license to do X, so why not a license to do Y" betrays the principle that these licenses shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
Furthermore, I'd rather not have the government carry any more "lists" on we the people than what they currently have. I agree with Narland in so much that the government should be only concerned with the identity of its civilians in regards to identifying criminals, although I do not go so far to disenfranchise anyone who breaks a law. So far as voting rights are civilian rights per the constitution, and criminals remain civilians, so too should they be able to participate in civilian activities such as voting.
Jadentopian Order, West Smolcasm
Hear, hear!
You'd think with all of the parroting of the Trump administration's talking points that this region would be called Conservatatem.
Jadentopian Order
thinking emoji intensifies
The New United States
Hann lifir!
How would you like to be the referee for the big Pev V Hump smack-down?
The New United States, Rateria
I think it is a bit of a misrepresentation to refer to Voter ID's as voting licenses.
Also minor nit-pick: Voting rights are a citizens rights, not a civilian rights. Civilian rights would exclude military and police from voting while including others, such as non-citizens
Miencraft, The New United States
"I believe that the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." - Ronald Reagan
Pevvania
Merry Christmas :)
The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
I think I speak for libertarians everywhere when I say the opposite is not also true - besides, the idealistic notion of conservatism to which Reagan referred is sadly underrepresented in America today. Conservatives used to stand for the advancement of individual and economic liberty through the opposition of tyranny and a healthy skepticism of change founded in light and transient causes; now any unity within the sphere of conservatism is dedicated to the 'principle' of not being, or even so much as resembling, a liberal, even at the expense of those prior values.
Call me a statist, but I'm not comfortable with having a bunch of drivers on the road without a license.
Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred
It's even because I don't trust the government to determine who should and should not drive that I believe it's very much necessary - I don't trust the people the government allows to drive, why would I trust people on the road who may or may not actually know anything?
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred
I think there's a lot of overlap in both ideologies, both of which stem from the classical liberal tradition of the 18th and 19th centuries, but you're right in that there's a definite difference. Still, I think the conservative movement today is much better than it was in, say, Obama's first term, or any time during the Bush era, which I'd argue was the low point of conservatism. Conservatives no longer wage empty crusades against gay marriage and pot, and no longer reflexively defend foreign interventions like they used to.
The liberal thing, I think, is more of a meme than anything else. And wouldn't you say the same is true of the left? Look at all the formerly mainstream Democratic principles under Clinton, Bush and Obama that liberals have condemned because of their association with Trump (the border wall, for example, and infrastructure).
Miencraft, Rateria, Fascist Dred
The main problem with the conservative movement today is that many people get complacent and do not hold our own leaders to account. Electing Trump alone was not going to fix anything. Where were conservatives during the fight for Obamacare repeal? Why have so many stayed silent as Congress has driven up the deficit to huge proportions? I don't think lack of ideas is the problem; it's letting the swamp trample on these ideas for political expediency.
The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred
I try to make a distinction between liberals and leftists. The broader conservative movement conflates the two. They want to distance themselves from leftism at all costs, and they won't abandon any good principles by doing so. It's good to mention we're all liberals in the classical sense. Capitalism is a liberal principle.
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred, West Smolcasm
There are good conservatives out there, Mike Lee comes to mind. The solid conservatives tend to be those who describe themselves as constitutional conservatives. Or at least that is what I have noticed. It is worth pointing out though that constitutionalists and Libertarians can fight side by side for decades decreasing the size of the state and helping the liberty movement before we will come to a substantive disagreement. The liberty movement needs all the allies it can get.
Miencraft, Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred, Skaveria
If someone is going to be driving a 2-ton steel box at high speeds in public places (often crowded ones), they should need a license.
Miencraft, Pevvania, Rateria
Or a... whatever sort of plastic they make stuff out of now.
The Deutsch Reich, The New United States, Rateria
Licenses are entirely unnecessary and aren't in the scope of what government is for. They should be abolished.
Narland, West Smolcasm
Federally? No, but drivers licenses are issued by state governments, not the national government.
The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred
Protecting people from wreckless endangerment isn't a proper role for local/state governments? To quote Miencraft:
Miencraft, Fascist Dred
As long as they don't hurt anyone, being in danger of doing so doesn't violate the nap. I can run out in the street swinging my fists wildly, but as long as I don't hit anyone I'm fine.
West Smolcasm
By the same logic, if I take my gun, go into the white house, and shoot it at random, if I miraculously end missing every person there and their property, it would violate the NAP for someone to tackle me, arrest me, and send me to prison.
~ Highway Eight
Miencraft, Pevvania, The New United States, Fascist Dred
Well what were your intentions going into the white house and shooting at random? It wouldn't take much to convince a jury you wanted to kill someone.
>statists actually believe this
https://youtu.be/ZITP93pqtdQ
libertatem.mp4
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria
And you don't see how this exact question could be applied to your theoretical situation?
The New United States
lol
It's not a good sign when Gary Johnson is far and away the least cringeworthy guy on the stage.
Rateria, Jadentopian Order
What a Communist
The New United States, Rateria, Jadentopian Order
If I don't need a license to use a toaster, why would I need one to fly an airplane?
#LP
Miencraft, Rateria, Fascist Dred, Jadentopian Order
I just don't trust the government to gift people the privledge of using their property after passing an arbitrary standard. As to the hypothetical situation I described, that's literally what, "shaking your fist as much as you want until it hits my face" is, that to me is a good discription for libertarianism. It does pose a problem, but I don't know how to rectify it without violating the NAP.
Narland, West Smolcasm
The air your fist pushes into my face violates the NAP.
The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred
Shadowboxing is no problem, even if it is rather emphatic.
Inciting terror by shooting up a public place is different - even if no physical harm is caused, striking intense fear into people's hearts without their consent is still very much a form of aggression.
And I don't trust people to pilot two-ton metal death machines without knowing they at least reached some standard of competence.
I literally do not trust the government to properly determine whether or not people are qualified to drive, which is why I'm even more concerned about letting people without licenses do it. I do not trust that the people the government says are okay actually are, so why would I trust anyone else?
Following this logic through would have us conclude that any and all phobias are inherently violations of the NAP on the part of the thing of which someone is afraid.
And that, of course, doesn't make any sense.
The Deutsch Reich, Narland, The New United States, Fascist Dred
Your deliberate misinterpretation of my meaning is cute, although it is worth noting that purposefully exposing people to their particular primal fears isn't really in the spirit of the NAP. Acts of terror, however, invoke more than just the discomfort and vulnerability of being frightened - whether anyone is physically harmed or not, the genuine fear for one's life carries with it the potential for lasting (possibly incorrigible) emotional damage and trauma. Unlike the mere existence of scary things like spiders or snakes, terrorism presents quantifiable harm and is therefore aggression.
If you don't want to be misinterpreted, say what you mean.
The Deutsch Reich
To add a minor caveat to the debate drivers licenses are only require for driving on public property, at least in Utah.
Miencraft, The Deutsch Reich, Narland, The New United States
I would imagine that is the case nationwide
Weeell... If we're going down that line of argumentation, it's not too far down the line to say that open carrying a weapon is inciting terror. People don't inherently have a right to not be terrified, because the line for that is arbitrary. While it's commonsense to be against displays of random violence, if nobody or nothing is damaged, how is it violence?
You could say, perhaps if you're on private property, that the owner didn't give you permission to put bullets in their airspace, but by that logic, it would also violate the NAP to throw bullets into people's yards...
In law, violence doesn't indicate damage or destruction, but the use of physical force in general, whether successful or not. "He violently swung the axe, but hit nothing but air."
Miencraft, The New United States
To be fair though he violated the hell out of that air's NAP.
The Deutsch Reich, The New United States, Rateria
Isn't gas like $2.60 a gallon for you guys?
Rateria
It's definetly more expensive on Colorado's western slope. I paid $3.15 yesterday.
Pevvania, The New United States, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Fascist Dred
When you swing an axe and assault the air violating the airs NAP so it leaves and suffocates you
*Ancap ball*
Miencraft, The Deutsch Reich, The New United States
Losers, $2.05 for me right now
The New United States, Rateria
You already violated the NAP when you breathed without the air's consent.
Miencraft, The New United States, Rateria
lolololol
Is that supposed to be impressive? $1.96 in my hometown, dork.
Pevvania, Rateria
About
Rateria
Small brain - discussing gas prices
Big brain - comparing and bragging about gas prices
Galaxy brain - not caring about gas prices because driving a car is a use of physical force with the capacity for great damage/destruction, therefore violence, therefore a violation of the NAP
Pevvania, Rateria, The United States Of Patriots, Fascist Dred, Skaveria, Jadentopian Order
Crikey. It's like $3.50 here in California. But I can't complain, since it's over $6 a gallon in the UK!
Rateria
woke
Rateria
2015 - Trump will drop out of the race any day now
2016 - Trump will get beaten by Hillary in a landslide
2017 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2018 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2019 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2020 - Trump will lose re-election in a landslide
2021 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2022 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2023 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2024 - Trump will get impeached any day now
2025 - Trump will resign before his term ends
Miencraft, Narland, The New United States, Rateria, Fascist Dred, Skaveria
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.