Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
wait are there people that think honest to god cult leader stefan molyneux is good
Got a source for those numbers? I was nice enough to give you a source for mine.
Plus that whole campaign in the Great Leap where everyone was instructed to scare all of the sparrows so they wouldn't land, and would die of exhaustion. Of course, with communists being completely incompetent, they didn't realize that all the sparrows they had killed were the only thing that kept the locust population down, so locusts at all of their crops.
You note that these were all technical errors in central planning-mistakes made in terms of knowledge about the effects of these actions, not issues with the system itself.
WHAT POSSIBLE GOOD WOULD COME OF MURDERING SPARROWS? WHAT WAS THE GLORIOUS PLAN THERE?
Sorry about that. http://www.npr.org/2012/11/10/164732497/a-grim-chronicle-of-chinas-great-famine
I meant to type 36 - 45 million but my phone apparently has a higher estimate, haha.
If you don't trust NPR estimates the National Center for Bio-technical Innovation estimates 30 million, though this is a rather low estimate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/
The point is that the victims of state planning's harsh effects are overwhelmingly not the beorgoise (many of whom develop connections within the government) nor the government itself but rather the proletariat and peasantry socialists claim to champion.
To free Cersei Lannister. *Comedic drum-set noise*
The point I'm trying to make is that central planning inevitably leads to corruption and inefficacy.
Except for when it doesn't, like when it ended famines in the Soviet Union.
So, now that Gay Equality has joined REATO, do you think the Reds will harass them as well? It will really show NS how inclusive and accepting the communists are.
Ended famines that it created? Bully for them.
lol history doesn't matter! who cares what really happened, just make things up!!!
Except for the famine of 1921, the famine of 1932-33, and the famine of 1946-47, yes. But then again, those are pretty large exceptions.
Are you actually trying to say that communism never caused any famines? Okay.
Obviously Pevvania trusts him enough to teach him "what Marx really was."
Well, the communists managed to end the famine caused by the Imperial government's involvement in WW1, so in that particular case no.
And then there was Holodomor, a genocide performed by Stalin when he deliberately starved all of the Ukraine.
Miencraft, Kings Island
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one.
They couldn't get us on the battlefield, so they are attempting to wage a war of intellect. Whatever floats your vote.
Welcome esteemed debaters. Liberatem is glad to show you how to not ban people that disagree with you!
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Post self-deleted by Free Cork.
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Wait, '21? The Russian civil war wasn't even over by then!
(*psst, sometimes, when wars happen, land gets destroyed and people die, the white army had a scorched earth policy)
46-47? You mean, just after WW2? In which over 27 million soviet citizens died and the industrial heartland in eastern europe was bombed flat? Surely that's the fault of Nazism, not communism.
unless they vote against you in the World Assembly, of course.
I'll concede 1921. Russia's initial defeat in WW2 was largely due to Stalin's purge of the Soviet military and the promotion of inexperienced officers. With proper leadership, Russia easily could have prevailed.
Can you back this up this claim with evidence please?
Gee, I don't know, consensus by historians? Are you really unaware of the Holodomor?
There isn't consensus that the Holodomor was deliberate.
What initial defeat? Oh, so what about all of the rest of Europe then? Maybe France purged all of the upper echelons of its military as well (let's not forget, France at the time was still an imperial superpower).
In one week, the Germans had conquered Poland, in that same amount of time, they had taken one room in Stalingrad.
In one month, the Germans conquered France, in that same amount of time, they'd barely managed to cross the street in Stalingrad.
What consensus?
lol if you think
1) that tiny bold italics was a good stylistic choice for "actually being able read"
2) that anyone will actually both reading them
That's true, but there certainly is consensus that it occurred.
Here. If you're actually interested in learning history instead of parroting Cold War "common sense" propaganda, check this out:
http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20%27The%201932%20Harvest%20and%20the%20Famine%20of%201933,%20SR%2091.pdf
"The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933" by Dr. Mark B. Tauger. Published in the journal Slavic Review after the fall of the USSR opened up their archives to historians.
france got outmaneuvered and poland got invaded by two great powers simultenously
I'm actually on my phone and I (hilariously) can't figure out how to copy-paste, but I'll definitely read it when I get home.
That said, I'm sceptical of USSR government statistics.
(Tiny little nitpick here, I know this might seem unimportant, but it is factually incorrect to say that "Russia won WW2." It is roughly equivalent to saying that "England" won the battle of Britain. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics consisted of 15 different states, one of them being the Russian Federative Socialist Republic)
Well, not simultaneously, there was a delay of roughly 2 weeks between the German invasion and the Soviet military operations.
France's defeat was due to the commonly held belief that tanks could not pass through the ardennes and that the low countries wow competently defend themselves. I.E. not their fault.
Of course there is consensus that a famine occurred. You said in no uncertain terms that it was "performed by Stalin when he deliberately starved all of the Ukraine". That does not have any sort of consensus.
Post self-deleted by Kings Island.
So would it be so radical to say that the USSR got caught off-guard?
I'm not supposed to believe historical facts, but I'm supposed to believe Soviet propaganda? No thanks.
Miencraft
Well, Hallo Island said that actually. I only agreed that it occurred.
no but only because stalin punished everyone that told him the germans were going to invade and was completely and utterly shocked when the germans did infact invade
Hallo Island
And Barbarossa was the largest military land invasion in world history. The Soviets advantage was that they could use vast amounts of land to eventually allow the blitzkrieg to run out of steam, just outside Moscow.
*uncritically pukes anti-communist propaganda all over the place*
"An unbiased American scholar who actually researched things after the Soviet Union fell providing evidence that the famine in Ukraine was not deliberate? SOVIET PROPAGANDA!!!!"
intellectual lot, you are.
Yes. The USSR was aware of an impending German attack and had the logistics and forces necessary to repel and counterattack Germany and Finland.
So wait, Stalin was shocked, when Hitler of all people, attacked him? You mean, the man who had for years talked of Lebensraum and the "communist menace?"
Can you prove any of this?
If so, why did Stalin do this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
Just because you know that somebody is going to attack you, does not mean that the date of the attack itself cannot be a surprise.
Regardless, the damage to Soviet land would not have been nearly so severe had the USSR'so officers not been purged.
Even when the German troops were visiblly marching toward them, Stalin reportedly refused to believe that they were attacking.
Some of the USSR was aware. Stalin, the man with the power, denied it. He wasn't exactly a master of foreign policy. Trucks full of supplies were still going from the USSR to Germany even as German troops were pouring into Russia.
yes
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E4D71638F931A25755C0A9639C8B63
As early as May 1939 Stalin was sent a six-page document outlining ''The Future Plans of Aggression by Fascist Germany,'' based on a German briefing obtained by Soviet spies in Warsaw. In December 1940 the Soviet agent Rudolf von Scheliha (code-named Ariets) reported that Hitler planned to declare war on the Soviet Union in March 1941. By Feb. 28, 1941, the same agent provided a provisional launching date of May 20. This intelligence was corroborated by sources in Bucharest, Budapest, Sofia and Rome, to say nothing of the information provided by the famous spy Richard Sorge (code-named Ramsay) in Tokyo. On April 17 a Prague informant predicted a German invasion in the second half of June. The precise date and time of the invasion were revealed by a reliable source in Berlin fully three days before the Germans attacked.
All of this Stalin ignored. Typically, he scrawled on the bottom of the Prague report: ''English provocation! Investigate!'' On May 19, Sorge predicted that 150 divisions were being readied by the Germans for an invasion of the Soviet Union. Stalin retorted with an expletive.
The result was that literally nothing was done to prepare for the German assault. Soviet planes were not camouflaged. Troops were not in defensive positions; indeed they were ordered not to occupy such positions, for fear of provoking the Germans.
and so on and so on and so on. i thought it was pretty well known he had a lot of misplaced confidence in molotov-ribbentrop and was not expecting him to break it so early.
Post self-deleted by Right-Winged Nation.
Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.
And he wasn't exactly a master at running a country either.
Kings Island, Hallo Island
I saw in a documentary, that this occurred, but it was like the boy who cried wolf as so many things were coming out about how Germany is going to invade in and the date for the expected date for the German invasion kept being pushed forward.
He however was a master at murdering innocent people.
The documentary is "Soviet Storm WW2 in the east" but I don't think I will be able to find that one episode and find the exact point it is mentioned.
And he wasn't exactly a master at running a country either.
Polish people and thirty million of his own people. He also liked the gulags pretty well
Yes, there was information indicating the date, but what's being ignored here are the countless other pieces of information that came through saying that an invasion would take place at one date or another, analogous to a "boy who cried wolf" situation. The fact was that the west had been saying for the last number of years that Hitler would invade the USSR. So one could be forgiven for assuming this peace of info to be another falsehood.
Not trucks, sorry, trains.
There was a lot of stuff Stalin wasn't too bad at.
A quote from my friend who lives a former communist bloc nation when asked if Holodomor was purposeful:
"Of f***ing course"
Kings Island
Can you prove that he killed these 30 million? While somehow simultaneously turning his backwards agrarian economy into arguably the largest industrial superpower in the world? A part of the world that in 1920, was based mostly on farming, that in the 1950s would become the first state to send a man into space?
Does this friend have any credentials? Just because you live in a certain part of the world does not put you on par with a historian who knows their sh*t.
You're kidding right? Do i need to pull up for you?
thank god we're basing our understanding of historical events on anecdotes and not actual historical research. that'd be a travesty
Just out of interest, where in particular is he/she from?
Yet they couldn't compete with the western world's technology.
Bulgaria.
Yeeeeeesssss You can't just make a bold claim and expect not to have to prove it, for example:
"Reagan would keep a harem of 15-year old Jamaican girls in an underground lair in the white house for his own sexual pleasure. Wait what? You need me to prove it? What do I need to pull that up for you?"
Info coming from the west, to Stalin would not be trustworthy stuff, which would be why he ignores it, he (Stalin) probably thought they just want him to help them against Germany, fun fact Britain never even acknowledged the USSR's existence until they needed their help, they still saw the exiled whites as the official government.
Have read a history book. His purges, the gulags, his assasinations of russian soldiers? Are you that clueless? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Joseph_Stalin
In what way? They had the first man-made object in space, (Sputnik) the first man in space, (Yuri Gagarin) the first woman in space, (Valentina Tereshkova) numerous other records involving long-term staying in orbit, (hell the vast majority of the ISS is based on Soviet technology) they pioneered laser-eye surgery, etc etc etc
oh, that doubtless makes them an expert on Ukrainian famine conditions 80 years ago. l m a o
Wait, wikipedia? You mean the source that ANYONE can write in?
http://historyofrussia.org/stalin-killed-how-many-people/
ah, a wordpress blog. this has much more legitimacy than a study published in a peer-reviewed journal of Slavic studies.
Let me guess you went to the school of franticly googling and the university of Wikipedia.
Ah, nothing like dozens of RMB posts I'm never going to read.
Kings Island
Oh, again, out of interest, was this person alive at the time? Was he/she IN the Ukrainian SSR at the time?
(I'm being nice here and trying to see if your claim has any credibility at all)
Evidence accepted by Libertatem:
- Wordpress blogs
- Wikipedia
- Cold War-era propaganda
- Anecdotes from people over 600 miles away and 80 years after the fact
Evidence regarded as "Soviet propaganda" and ignored:
- Peer-reviewed historical studies by American scholars
Hahahahaha if the ISS was based on Soviet tech it would have turned into essentially a flaming garbage can by now
I will pull up multiple pages and sources. If you are trying to deny that stalin was not one of the most evil and notorious men of all time, go back to school
you do realize that the only access to the ISS right now is Soviet tech right
Nice to know that we're dealing with someone who is so sure of their ideology that they dare not read anything that might contradict their "deeply held religious beliefs," truly, you are the intellectual elite.
You do know that American astronauts travel to the ISS by Soyuz rockets, right?
Wikipedia has actually come a long way. It's technically actually more accurate than most written encyclopedias. By the way, I think we can probably assume that some that actually lived in a communist country probably knows more than you about communism.
hey Libertatem I just asked my very Ukrainian friend if the Holodomor was deliberate and he said no. he also said "hail Stalin". sorry but my anecdote trumps yours because my friend is Ukrainian and yours is only Bulgarian. That's how history works right?
Look up the Mir space station, it is the spiritual predecessor to the ISS, and was built by the USSR.
Post self-deleted by Pangaean Brigade.
Hey I bet most of you haven't ever heard of all the atrocities the US committed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5rVD_TXrjo
Can you actually give any source for your belief that soviet tech was somehow inferior? It's one of these myths that everyone seems to believe but no one actually has any reason for.
yeah lol there's way the soviets could build a space station oh wait
Like I said, I'm not able to view said peer reviewed study right now. Did you forget NPR and the National Medical Biotechnics Institute? I've taken your claims very seriously; there's no need for ad hominem.
Hell, my Hungarian friend said that the Soviet Union was the best thing that ever happened to his country, and he hates the '56 rebels.
That was a joke but okay
and you seem to be the only person who isn't immediately dismissing it all out of hand, so good on you. you're exempted from that post.
but it applies to the rest of y'all
No, I mean I logged in to find a massive conversation had taken place within the span of a few hours. And since it has nothing to do with me... ain't nobody got time fo dat.
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