Post Archive
Region: Libertatem
Assuming you get lucky and that it is consensual.
Sure...
I mean hello, our name means "Liberty." The flag's symbolism should represent that.
I misread that as a shot in the foot. It definitely will give this place more class.
The current flag isn't very friendly to any communist. I will give the Soviets their due in that they gave communism a symbol other than a red flag.
I love Greek and Roman culture, just don't ask me to speak Latin. :p
Left-handed sharpie-writing is fun...
Well, I mean, "penis" is a Latin word...
Potesne in lingva latina loquor?
Ha! Arabic classes. :P
Post self-deleted by Albul.
Indo-European covers a hell of a lot of languages, man.
DK and the Norks represent our greatest communist threats, but GGG and TBR represent major threats as well. We miss out in attracting nations who could help us fight this threat when we fail to emphasize our anti-fascist operations.
By promoting ourselves as a libertarian alternative, willing to fight the fascists, we starve our radical-left enemies of support.
Congratulations, your proposal has the support of *counts on fingers* six actual Libertatem citizens, compared to ten in favor of the status quo. Do you know why?
The Anti-Corporatist Party opposes the replacement of the region's historic flag; it stands for Libertatem's hallowed traditions, our military's struggle against the authoritarian left, and our people's resistance to the banner waved to signify a regime that killed dozens of millions of people. Aggressive foreign powers are attempting to corrupt our region's honored symbol and turn us away from all we fight for - we must hold fast to our ideals, or else those of our authoritarian foes will be thrust upon us instead. Keep the flag as it is!
Actually, I only voted because of this...
Ah yes. The "tradition" that keeps on turning away potential allies, makes regions unwilling to create embassies with us, and has generally been an overall detriment to us. Changing the flag would have significant utility AND it would finally signify that we aren't ultra zealous McCarthyists hell bent on the extermination of an ideology, which is authoritarian in itself. Tradition has always been a poor excuse to perserve tyranny, the tyranny that ACOP seeks to hold onto fast. Liberty (and libertarians), which a significant bloc on this region, have never been about tradition unlike our conservative brethren. We desire change to a more free state. And this flag would fulfill part of it.
That's our history you're equating to tyranny, and your own fellow Libertatemites you refer to as tyrants. Is this really what you think of us, Minerva?
Consider it a fair-weather friend repellent; if a potential "ally" takes offense to our defiance of totalitarianism, they were clearly unsuited to be so.
*looks up at embassy list* You must be joking. Take it from a former Manager of State - there's a lot more to foreign affairs than nitpicking flags.
It is the banner we raise in retaliation against our foes, and the symbolic representation of our cause - this region was created to oppose the authoritarian left (and right, if you consider fascists right-wingers), and we continue to do so to this day. What we fight for is not a detriment.
You're either exaggerating or taking the banter of our foes too seriously. We signify that through our actions, and it is clear none of us are campaigning for any ideology's complete eradication.
Ten of your fellow libertarians dare to disagree.
Right, because acquiescing to the demands of Leninists and Stalinists will definitely make us more free. Brilliant. /sarcasm
So is "vagina"
I'm more into Nordic culture, with some interest in Greco-Roman and Slavic culture.
I'm more concerned about the average person who looks at this region thinks. You know too well the power of first impressions have, and if our reputation is negative it'll only create a confirmation bias for people who lock out their minds.
Or, we could be merely creating enemies where none existed before, by confirming people's biases and turning a lot of formerly "neutral" people to the side of our enemies.
Right. Because there was nobody in our circle that complained about the flag. At all. Even as I pick up more of the spots you left off, I keep hearing more and more about how the flag influences people's conceptions about the region. Even Zenny said people ask why Libertatem has the flag it has.
If that were so, then why are we driving away other libertarians - other moderates with it? Why do we not raise a popular banner that unites all who carry themselves under the name of liberty? Both can strike fear through our actions taken, but that's after the preconceptions are usually made. And why do we stick simply to a symbol associated with the left, if we are also against fascists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Nobody is acquiescing to the demands of Leninists and Stalinists here. This is done all voluntary in the benefit of the region.
Modern German history, Ancient Greek and Roman history, and Victorian era/Industrial Revolution to the 1920s Jazz Age and age of laissez faire.
Alright, blind reveal, put yourself in the shoes of a moderate a few years newer to politics than you are - a region with a flag crossing out the infamous Soviet symbol, or a region with a snake baring its fangs while wrapped around a pole with some sort of hat on it?
So you're saying our current flag can turn neutral parties into enemies, and your proposal can turn neutral parties into friends. My question is, how do you figure that? What incentive would this neutral party have to do so on the basis of a regional symbol?
Of course people are asking questions - they want to know more about our region. Answer them - it's better than panicking and lobbying to change things.
This region has, throughout its history, warred against the authoritarian left than the right (again, if you consider fascists a part of the right). It's a symbol ten times more people died under than the swastika, the symbol that unites the likes of Das Kommune and North Korea, and the symbol we crossed out from this very region's formation.
If you want a popular banner, use REATO's. Torches are cool.
You're the one who said "significant bloc" as though the libertarians here form some sort of homogenous mass when, in actuality, the majority of us oppose your proposal.
Then why remove the flag that scorns them? Why remove the banner that illustrates what we fight for? Why remove the symbol they argue against out of fear?
Look at our flag.
Look at this:
http://prntscr.com/4xiw48
I think I'll get more specific as well:
Medieval European history, the Vikings, Byzantine History, History of the European empires (mainly British, French, Swedish, and Russian empires), and WWII.
1) Alright, blind reveal, put yourself in the shoes of a moderate a few years newer to politics than you are - a region with a flag crossing out a sickle and a hammer, or a region with a Gadsden flag with a pole with the Phrygian cap on it? Perspective, m8. Deal with it.
2) Neutral parties are neutral parties. Perspective, m8. Deal with it.
3) You answer this question. Why should we keep the flag?
4) And the same amount of people dies in wars against communism when capitalist forces clashed against communist rebellions/uprisings.
5) I suppose snakes, which have been feared since the dawn of civilization, are not as cool as torches... Torches light up... That's cool, right? Slithering, fangs, predators, none of those things are as cool as torches that light up. (Perspective!!!)
6) A good deal of libertarians (of the left) oppose your proposal. Not every libertarian is in Libertatem! :P
7) I find this flag more useful. I only voted so as to not be a fascist! :P
Most people new to politics won't have any idea what Minerva's flag symbolizes, so I think your point isn't really valid.
Now that's just stupid.
Besides the fact that, y'know, you don't even live here.
Then in the same situation, they wouldn't understand what the hammer and sickle represents, since they are new to politics. I knew the Gadsden flag in 3rd grade before I knew the hammer and sickle in 6th grade. :P
Wouldn't it be useful for me, as an anti-Libertatem advocate to use the flag election scandal as a distraction while I plot against your imperialist agenda by advocating against any relations of you among other leftist regions?
It's not too hard for me, since I am doing it as we speak. :)
I'm starting to think you're just trolling.
The hat, on the other hand, is a neutral symbol, but it is an easter egg to those who already know what it means. It pikes the interest, it makes people want to ask. The current flag doesn't, and when it does, it is usually a negative concern. A concern which we cannot always answer or is interpreted correctly. A concern that if you ask me, is too much to risk.
I never said that my proposed flag can turned neutral parties into friends, but it can avoid turning neutral parties into enemies. Why? If they are libertarian communist, or even moderates, and see the flag, this could preconceive hostility in their minds towards us. As a person who is taking art history, I know all to well of symbols during WWI were meant to merely boost moral while demoralizing the enemy, particularly of the Axis powers. The flag is of the same line of thinking and tradition, and is on par with Antifa's *knock over nazis with a bat* type brutishness. Unacceptable.
Like I said, it's impossible to answer everyone, or give them a short synopsis of this region's history all the time. Zenny is getting tired defending us, and so am I.
And The Communist Bloc for that matter. And for a short period, UCR. Two regions that aren't against us.
False equivalence. I said the flag represents the significant bloc quite well, but apparently people want to continue to be represented as McCarthyites. We do not fight for only, and merely, "anti-communism" as what was once our mantra, nor is that had Libertatem only to come to represent, but much more. Pragmatism, libertarianism, multiculturalism (ideologism?) "don't tread on me" and "Time's up." Peace, as represented by the Wreath, and prosperity through the color gold. And of course the defensively aggressive representation of the gadsden flag. I see this as a better representation of Libertatem with a wealth of symbolism that doesn't jump out of you from the bush like a knife wielding maniac, but something more subtle.
I'm not trolling. I am actually doing what I said I was doing...
Snakes are amongst one of the oldest symbols. In ancient Greek, paired with another and with a pole with two wings, they represented Mercury and free trade. They can also represent rebirth and renewal through the shedding of their skin. It was to some, a symbol of death (and thus fear) to others.
Well, you learn something new every day.
I reference my article. I think that it is a greater detriment to foreign affairs that a flag is reducing us to feral gangs than a certain flag itself. Really, people? Why does it matter? Let me say this in a clear voice so that you out of touch politicians can here me over your "debate"
NO ONE CARES ABOUT A FLAG!!!!
Scout Neo-con, look through various socialist regions and report back to me and Pev through telegram what you find regarding what Albul said.
I think you outworn your stay, Albul.
Then I suppose no one would find this offensive:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Gadsden_flag-reimagined.svg
I did the very minute I moved into this region. ;)
Anything in particular (nothing mentioning Albul though).
Embassy with DK or similar.
And what did I tell you? Are you satisfied Mr. Regional "Security" Adviser? You're petty political chess game is working out very well.... for the Communists.
The very fact that we can have this debate shows that Libertatem is a healthy region with a diverse set of attitudes and opinions. The flag change is supported by high-level government and military officials, which helps to build our credibility as friends of peaceful, democratic regions, regardless of ideology.
Nonsense. This is a lively and, for the most part, civil debate. *Looks at CI* It also happens to be a necessary one.
Perhaps you've forgotten that we would not be in control of [region=Congress of Armed Proletarian States] if not for our left-wing allies (TCB, AAA, etc...), many of whom have expressed concerns regarding our flag. Considering our friendship with them, I would hope that our government officials could show at least some respect, if not gratitude.
What do you mean? Regions with embassies with DK? I'm not sure I understand.
Yes that.
Behold! Regions with embassies with DK:
The Communist Coalition, Peoples Revolutionary Democratic Union, The Communist Internationale, The Red Fleet, Slavia, Sozialistische Weltrepublik, The Union of Red Nations, Anticapitalist Alliance, Communist International, Atheist Empire, Communist Beach, Democratic Socialist Assembly, The Cyrillic Empire of New Slavica, The Pentagon, CIL, The Communist and Anarchist League, Socialist Peasants Council, Communist China, Rejected Communists Vol2, Eurasian Socialist Union, United Left Front, Labour and Socialist International, The International, United Socialist Republics, Fascist and Imperialist Union, Antifa, The MT Army, The Confederacy of Imperialist Nations, The Internationale, Allied States of EuroIslanders, North Korea, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Revolutionary Communist Assembly, Revolutionary Communist Party, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, NSLeft, The Cannabis Communists, The League of Reformed Socialist States, the democratic socialist union, Marxism Leninism, United Sovereign Socialist Republics, Marxist Scholars Circle, primitive communism, and The United Democratic Socialist Front.
Silence, eh? What else can you expect from a government official, right? No worries. Just doing you're job, ignoring those pesky dissenters.
*facepalm*
You had accomplished nothing.
Now leave.
Sorry, I'll do the RMB searching now.
Well, well, well, if it isn't Mr. Auctoritas?
DK has been watching our Prez.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8181904
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8182053
What that I hold that can only be accepted as a suggestion.
More reports:
The Internationale: nothing relevant
North Korea: nothing relevant, there is however Holodomor denying bullcrap, and V Ming going on another rant (probably inspired by a recent Acid trip).
roflmao
Let me do it..
Another report
NSleft: Nothing relevant. Still crying about the raid on CAPS.
I'm back y'all.
You guys...don't tell them that we are freaking watching them.
It's kind of implied that everyone is watching everyone else, so I don't see the harm in pointing it out explicitly.
Boop!
Yeah. I don't think I have much sway in this decision, but I did note to Funky that I think people don't focus on the fight against totalitarianism when from the flag people assume 'ohh they are focused on fighting communism'. I personally like the 1st flag option, and I would suggest the flag focus on liberty and fighting totalitarianism on the left & right rather than one specific ideology, as I don't painting with a broad brush is ever a good idea. I got a lot of questions regarding the flag and after awhile I think the "its just tradition" card kinda can wear off. I think it would do wonders for Libertatem's image. :)
We need better Plans though.
Such as the "Time Alliance Militaristic Watch Plan"
I don't see anything relevant but dead communist regions connected to DK - the pitiful state of the NS "left."
Y'know, I have no idea if we should count this poll as a vote for legislation, which I believe everyone can vote on (unless that thing that changed the House to only be citizens had an effect on that), or restrict it to citizens if it wasn't already, like voting for Board or something.
Post self-deleted by The State Of Deseret.
Ehhh
nty
So true.
It's a great plan...screw threatening military action.
I've got a better solution.
So are you coming back or what.
It's been quiet and non-controversial for a while without you here.
We found a flag to kill each other over, though, but still.
I'm waiting to be told I can actually fricken apply for citizenship and then i need a puppet (Warring States of the Mediterranean).
I've got nothing to really fight over besides the fact we might want to annex our allies and remake the Empire....
BUT WITHOUT THE MILITARY. Use the TAMWP
Just bring a puppet in, stick it here for a little while, and talk to Muh.
Easy.
I did that...with this account...hmmm
Okay I'll bring my puppet in when I can access a computer.
Post self-deleted by Miencraft.
Is it up to CI, since he's Attorney-General?
I'd say let everyone vote, but I'm a bit biased... Also, there's some genuine foreigners in the region. I'm not sure if they should be counted, even if I happen to agree with them.
Yeah, I'd say leave it to him.
Personally, I'd make it citizens-only, since really they're the only ones who would have been here long enough to understand how we work.
Besides the fact that now that the House is only made up of citizens, everything voted on is only citizens, so it makes sense.
Also, I just spontaneously remembered the time I argued with a person about the number of continents in America.
That was a weird day.
But America's in a Continent
That's why it was a weird day.
Post self-deleted by The State Of Deseret.
Only the non-Anglophone world believes that America is one continent.
I figured that you guys would react a bit more to one of the three people who created Das Kommune. Eh, I don't mind the lack of a reaction, though, as I find it amusing that you are so shocked at my actions when CI himself managed to make a communist region to attract communists and to "betray the left". While he fooled many, he silenced the few who found out.
I commend that plan, comrade. I might try it out sometime. :)
Heyo all how are things? Everyone well I hope.
great documentary on the government holding African Americans back with welfare.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/699898
I suppose that, with the same argument, the government is holding back the corporations and the poor with the same technique!
Corporations? No. The Poor? Yes.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2048/the_evidence_shows_that_welfare_hurts_the_poor
So welfare hurts everyone except for the rich people... Just when I thought you couldn't get any more conservative.
http://youtu.be/T_foQoCHQq8 I find this amusing.
You, sir, are a pyromaniac in a field of straw men. ;-)
The problem is not necessarily providing a safety net, but leaving the recipients completely unaccountable and treating what ought to be temporary relief as a permanent situation. Fred Siegel wrote a fantastic book about NYC's "workfare" program in the 1990's which lowered the poverty rate, cut the expense of welfare programs, and doubled the amount families received. It's called, "The Prince of the City."
And the fact that the recipients view it as a right and not as help from there fellow Americans.
O wait not help. Help would imply that it volentary and not from the barrel of a gun.
Post self-deleted by Miencraft.
CI: You're AG, so before the poll ends you've got to decide if non-citizen votes count.
That's not conservatism. Conservatism wishes to enact barriers to free trade through protectionism of various means and build up of a large military through economic subsidies. Conservatism wishes to preserve the status quo, I seek to change it.
As well as Reactionism and Socialism.
And Fascism and Most Nationalist Variants...
Hey guys The CCS got raided. We could really use some help.
I'm a conservative, and I'm not for protectionism, and I'm not for economic subsidies.
Yeah...most Conservatives support free trade nowadays...it's the others I named that do not.
In accordance with the FRAUD Act (specifically, Section III Subsection II and Section V Subsection I), only Libertatem Citizens may vote on this public referendum. That is to say, non-citizen votes will not count.
So you all believe it should be legal to do things that don't hurt others.
Wouldn't you then need some bussiness regulations such as -laws against Discrimination (not when hiring, but blatant discrimination)
-laws to protect workers from being slave Labour's practically (safety regulations and a minimum payment),
-and laws protecting the consumer/employers (Labeling laws and Copywriter laws).
Pretend you're a customer who's just found out a store you shop at every week is doing one of those three things. Would you still give them your business?
Well these things are exposed all the time, not in mainstream media of course, people still support these businesses
Shouldn't there be laws against it though? Like laws against theft and murder?
And yes....I would probably.
Speaking of which, I was not added to the citizenship list yet.
Probably so, but in any case, a free market economy would deincentivize unethical acts among businesses.
Yes you are - the problem is that there are two different lists at the moment; the factbooks need to be amended to make this the go-to register.
Thats a good thought, but I, like most Americans shop cheap. Being so I could care less about their employment practices and how much they are paid. I could care less if my desired product was made by some child in Vietnam. If I get my product cheaper than the other store offers, then I am fine.
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.