Post Archive
Region: The Mystical Council
[nation=short]barishmacht[/nation] I saw your map request I will update the map sometime tomorrow. Thank you.
Barishmacht, Plugo, Naumadal
he only needs an appeal on one nation.
New Bacon, Plugo
I know I wanted him to make sure he saw my post. That's why I put all of his puppets on there.
Plugo, Parakka Northland, Naumadal
Ah okay makes since.
New Bacon, Plugo
Post self-deleted by Forestavia.
Added to the historical record....
The Sixth President of Sentagon
6. Plugo: 8/15/2016 - Present
Special Lunar Council Election Between the Sturgeon Moon and the Harvest Moon 2016
Lunar Council President: [nation=short]AU912 Mystical Council Consulate[/nation]
Lunar Councillor: [nation=short]Rrepaimziaraseh[/nation]
Lunar Councillor: [nation=short]Exotic Lemon[/nation]
Lunar Councillor: [nation=short]Parakka Northland[/nation] (8/15/2016 - Present)
Lunar Councillor: [nation=short]Naumadal[/nation] (8/15/2016 - Present)
A special Lunar Council election was held to replace [nation=short]Plugo[/nation] after Plugo won the Sentagon Presidential Election. [nation=short]Naumadal[/nation] was the only candidate and won the election by default.
Exotic Lemon
I have a question why can't we the members of sentagon vote for our President.
Forestavia
Sentagon in itself is NOT a dedicated region. It is part of TMC, a branch of its government. The region was created so that secondary matters may be discussed and polled over there instead of here, so that they may not clutter the main region. However, primary matters such as who leads the Sentagon, is discussed and voted on over here.
Just to add your still able to vote for Sentagon president no matter where the poll is located
Forestavia have the orders, contact him.
Exotic Lemon
i want to run for the council
Forestavia
Do you have a campaign?
Forestavia, Plugo
Listen here matters of Sentagon need to be in Sentagon. Not in the main region trying to confuse everyone. Like I said section 6 gotta be changed and I'm not backing off my word on that. If Sentagon members refuse to change it then all matters need to be discussed in Sentagon period.
I agree.
Ok looking at section 6, it certainly needs to be worded differently, because technically no WA nations can vote on LC or Sentagon matters, Sentagon members cant vote on the Delegate or LC matters and LC and the Delegate cant vote on Sentagon matters as that is what section 6 states.
So perhaps it could be worded something like this:-
6. The Delegate, The Lunar Council, and Sentagon shall make up the three branches of government. Two branches must approve of regional legislation and treaties in order to go into effect. These three branches of government should remain separate and distinct from one another. Except in situations like elections where people are seeking to swap between branches.
My thinking on this is, if i decided to run for Sentagon president tomorrow then this change would allow me to at the very least vote for myself, which is a fundamental problem with part 6 as it stands. I don't think that would solve the problem entirely but it might help a little.
Forestavia
Ok, you can run against Chef next month. The 16th is the full moon.
Parakka Northland
Because Sentagon is our third branch of government.
The President of Sentagon is an elected position within the branch of Sentagon. The President of Sentagon is NOT the President of The Mystical Council. The President of Sentagon is only ONE of the Presidents of The Mystical Council. That is the reason why the election is an internal proceeding and only members of Sentagon can participate in it, otherwise it will become corrupted.
Next time I think we will hold the election over in the Sentagon region.
Plugo, Parakka Northland
I'm sorry. I think I misunderstood the question. You DO vote for your President. I'll also add you to the list of Sentagon members.
I have updated the Sentagon List. If you see any mistakes please point them out.
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=forestavia/detail=factbook/id=656133
I'll take a closer look at the wording after this ORCA thing blows over.
Parakka Northland
No worries, just trying to be helpful :)
Remove fascism vector, trebisond and samasuia, and change my thing from [The Solidarity Bloc] to [the mystical capitalizt party] (tumetu shoould have this too since he is the founder.
Forestavia
Samasuia and Trebisond retired right? What happened to vector?
Section 6 needs to be revised. Seriously. At the minimum people who are running should have the audacity to vote for themselves.
You're right the next election should be held in Sentagon and not here.
Well, Sentagon is going to retain control over its own internal proceedings. That isn't going to change. I might reword it a little to make it clearer, less confusing, and less ambiguous, but it's not going to change.
It was Sentagon's prerogative to elect Plugo - a member of TMC from outside of Sentagon. And Plugo resigned from the Lunar Council immediately after to accept the honor. So it all worked out. No lines were crossed. But the day Lunar Councillors vote in Sentagon's own proceedings is going to be the day that hell freezes over. It's corrupt to do it that way. Understand I'm doing this to maintain a balance of power in the region. You and the Lunar Councillors hold enough power in this region already. Sentagon deserves its share of power too. That's my stand. And I think it makes sense because it gives the nations here more power over their own government.
While I can agree with the above statements, it is beyond infuriating to sit and watch a really important election go by and not being able to vote, especially after being elected to a position in the government. As annoying as it is, I still somewhat agree with Forestavia
New Bacon, Parakka Northland
I wish to join the capitalist party.
Forestavia, Exotic Lemon
[nation=short]Forestavia[/nation] this is my recommendation to not only you but all of sentagon. Yes it can be amended by ALL BRANCHES to get it added to the Constitution.
[spoiler=Section 6b]If one holds a seat on the Lunar Council or Delegate, they can vote for themselves if they are running for President of Sentagon.[/spoiler]
Parakka Northland
I have an alternative idea. Consider this instead:
"No Delegate or Lunar Councillor may run for office within Sentagon unless they first resign."
This takes care of the voting matter and also respects the separation of branches.
Parakka Northland
hahahahahaha, you're just trying to maneuver around my idea. It doesnt work like that. :). I like your idea though.
Parakka Northland
if one were to win then the seat would be dropped by default. just saying.
I'm trying to prevent Delegate and Council Member overreach while preserving the separation of powers. It's not a maneuver. Consider this hypothetical:
#1 We instate this >> "No Delegate or Lunar Councillor may run for office within Sentagon unless they first resign." in addition to Section 6.
This is the result.
#2. A Delegate or Lunar Councillor wants to run for the President of Sentagon.
#3. They resign.
#4. They join Sentagon.
#5. They adds their name to the ballot and vote for themselves.
I think that's a fair compromise.
Parakka Northland
[nation=short]forestavia[/nation] i wasnt laughing at you or anything like that but you always come back with a good counter-argument. I will come up with another solution.
Parakka Northland
That's true.
*waves sword*
Touché! ;P
New Bacon
That's a bad idea that unnecessarily creates vacant seats for even longer times. And treats the branches of the government as not only being independent of each other, but also completely ignorant of each other. This sort of misconnection is detrimental to the operation of the region. It is vital to keep a link between the branches, such that each branch can affect the other, but not in an intrusive way.
It is true that LC issues should be voted on by the LC only, and Sentagon issues should be voted on by Sentagon members only (With the exception if the issue has consequences that affects the entire region and all branches)
Consider LC elections, everyone, regardless of their postion in the region, can vote for the people running for the LC. And that is why the same exact thing should be true for people running for a Sentagon office. Everyone gets to vote for the Sentagon president, but only Sentagon members get to vote on the typical Sentagon issues. LC members, and the delegate, should absolutely vote on who runs for Sentagon office. Just as much as Sentagon members, and the delegate, should absolutely vote on who runs for LC office. The only thing that matters is that one person cannot hold two offices concurrently. Beyond that, let a person vote for themselves all they want into another branch of government. And if they get that office, they are dropped from their old one, and that would be absolutely fine.
On the forced resignation before running idea, there will always be a vacant seat in the original branch, regardless of whether or not the person wins the elections in the new branch. On the resignation only after win idea, there will only be a vacant seat in the original branch, only if the person wins a seat in the new branch.
[B]Some of you seem to forget one important thing[/B], and that is TMC is not simply a government, it is a region WITH a government. And so in your haste to make things "fair", you are actually curbing the right of the people of the region to vote on who leads them.
[B]To summarize:[/B] Y'all should stop acting like each branch got nothing to do with the other. What one branch does can easily affect the entire region and all the other branches. And so while it is a good idea that one branch cannot takeover what another is doing, making so that the members of one branch are completely powerless to have any say in the running of another branch and who runs it, turns our region into a broken machine with no connection between its part, instead of a finely tuned machine where its parts are connected and harmoniously working together.
Kazukame, Forestavia, New Bacon, Parakka Northland, Exotic Lemon
You have presented a curious argument. Like Bacon, I too will have to consider what you've said and come up with another solution.
New Bacon
Sentagon is also not very active.
Exotic Lemon
Let's make it like this. Sentagon will be like a puppet storage region. Or anyone can rub for sentagon office. Once elected the nation will have to resign from the lunar council offices. In this way we preserve the independence of the sentagon. And also the integrity of the lunar council.
Sorry to disagree with you but I really hate the idea of people running for office whilst still in anther form of office. If people want to swap positions then they should resign from their current position and take their chances on if they lose then they will be out of office completely.
Forestavia, Gyuris
Im not a fan of it being a puppet storage region. As a region goes it isn't very active because it's members generally reside here. However, I do agree that issues that require Sentagon only members to vote on should be voted on in their. With a "heads up" in this region to make sure everyone knows about a vote being called. Though technically the memebers of Sentagon could debate legislation there if they wished whilst still residing here
Kazukame, Forestavia, Exotic Lemon
the region itself is currently not in use yes, but the sentagon members are active.
you have a lot of ideas, will you run for the council/advisors of sentagon?
Forestavia, Parakka Northland, Exotic Lemon
Oh [nation=short]barishmacht[/nation] I forgot to tell you the map is updated with your main nation, all your colonies, and capital city. I got caught up in that Sentagon mess.
Barishmacht
We are not going to let anyone curtail the voting rights of everyone. Mugwop is right. I currently disagree with both Forestavia and Parakka Northland but that is the way politics work. Come up with another solution, that's what I told Forestavia that I would do. You have to be able to present a good counter-argument in order to satisfy other people.
I would love to run for the sentagon advisor position . Please tell me the formalities to become the candidate
Forestavia, Plugo, Parakka Northland
How about giving sentagon members two votes for the post of the President?
I believe that's already in effect for Sentagon
Pastia
There are two easy solutions to this situation of people who are seeking to swap from one branch to anouther.
1. They be allowed to vote for themselves but the other branch of goverment cannot interfere.
2. They resign from one branch to become eligible for a role in anouther branch.
Either option works for me but if you have anouther idea I'm all ears
Kazukame, New Bacon, Exotic Lemon
2. Works for me.
I think the lc should be able to vote in the presidential election since the LC is elected by sentagon.
I also think the delegate and founder should both be placed in a "executive" branch.
I am currently developing a sentagon advisor plan, which is ONLY CHOSEN by members of sentagon, the role and duty of the advisor would be to advise the president on decisions and vote on them, help to come up with legislation, laws and other things to benefit sentagon.
New Bacon, Parakka Northland
Is this your main nation?
I agree with this.
Plugo
To clarify i meant "advisers" not adviser, there would be 3-4.
New Bacon, Parakka Northland, Exotic Lemon
I drafted up a proposal a while ago, I know it only has one adviser but it might help with ideas. It is not what I have planned, but it is an idea you may want to add on to it.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=exotic_lemon/detail=factbook/id=674414
Forestavia, Plugo
*Lunar Councilors only*
Do you all have a list of names for an orca rep? Or are you all okay with [nation=short]moltavo[/nation] being the official orca rep?
Forestavia, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Exotic Lemon
Ill draw something up from this that will be done friday night.
Post self-deleted by Exotic Lemon.
[nation=short]Moltavo[/nation] has my full support for ORCA rep. My self deleted post was that just with so many typos it was unreadable.
New Bacon, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate
How's life, everyone?
Yes.
We have some good ideas on the RMB. Keep up the good work. I'm turning in early tonight. Had kind of a long day.
You are disregarding one crucial fact. Our position in the government should not be regarded as our own luxury spot where we are granted powers that we use as we please, and that the ultimate goal is for us not to lose that spot. That's a destructive and selfish view. The righteous way to view is that we have office position in which it is our duty to serve the region to the best of our abilities.
So by swapping positions and unnecessarily creating vacant seats, you are not simply taking a chance against your own personal powers in the region, you are taking a chance at the much more important thing which is having a harmoniously operating region with appropriate number representatives.
The picture is much bigger than you and your office powers; the picture is about your office responsibility towards the region
New Bacon
With all due respect I don't appreshate being old that I am assuming that our goverment positions are our divine right to keep once awarded until the end of time. Which is in effect is what your saying I am saying. I equally don't like being told that I am missing the bigger picture, by having an opinion on a subject.
I do not agree with people hedging their bets, by that I mean if people hold office in one Branch and wish to swap to anouther, then they should consider resigning first, and not waiting to see if they get a favourable outcome before making that decision. Thats my personal view and if the region chooses to adopt that stance then great but if not that's cool too.
I assume from your comments that you are against people swapping positions? As in doing so it's creating an unnecessary vacant seat in one of the three branches?
Kazukame, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate
Well here is the thing, convince me how is it that one person in a current government postion, running for a position in another branch, is much worse than creating unnecessary vacant seats in the government every time this scenario happens which leads to a) having an even number of councillors in the LC with no easy way to break tie votes in one case, or having the head of the Sentagon branch be vacant in another case. Or b) forcing us to award the vacant seat to someone who gets it in a shady "by default" manner -not particular meaning you- which is much less democratic than elections which are held in timely manner and everyone in the region know when said elections are happening.
Convince me how the latter scenarios are a much better thing to deal with, than just having someone from one branch run for another before resigning, and just resigning if they get the new seat, without creating unnecessary empty seats. Riddle me that mate.
New Bacon, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate
How is the Song of the Week decided upon exactly?
New Bacon, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Plugo Orca Force
It's a gut kinda thing. Any suggestion?
New Bacon
[nation=short]gyuris[/nation] I got your map request I will update it this afternoon.
Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Gyuris, Plugo Orca Force
I have returned from cte.
Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Plugo Orca Force
Convince me why someone who is in theory happy with their position would want to run for anouther? Equally I presume that if someone wants to swap positions then they for whatever reason are not happy in their current position so why would they want to keep their old position if they don't get the new one?
No matter how you want to slice it, whether someone runs for a position whilst maintaining their current role or resigns from their current role to be eligible for a new one. You are guaranteed to create a vacancy somewhere that could be deemed unnecessary.
Your comment about people being awarded positions in a shady manner or default manner, I can't help but take that as a personal jab at me. For the record I never asked to be awarded a place on the Lunar Council by default but I accepted the reason for it because it was logical and made sense. I would have personally preferred to have been in an election but that wasn't to be which was hardly my fault.
Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Plugo Orca Force
If there isnt a more important poll going on we could start a poll for it
Any member with appearence changes it ob friday or monday, if u have a suggestion tg it to my main and ill put it in when its time to change
I don't.
It is a matter of preference. Someone might prefer being President of the Sentagon over being a Lunar Council member, but prefer being a Lunar Council member over being a Sentagon member but not an officer.
The issue, though, is whether it would be better for the region for a Lunar Council member to run for another office and vote in the Sentagon while continuing to act as a Lunar Council member, or to resign first.
Plugo, Parakka Northland
Oops. I mean I don't have a list. I am OK with Moltavo.
New Bacon
That is not quite true. The person running for the new position may or may not be satisfied by their current postion, but they might also not be satisfied by the direction that another person is running the office they want. A recent comparable case we saw was how Plugo challenged Rondaland for his position.
Again, you are only viewing the matter from the individual point of view who is running for office, and completely disregarding what repercussion might exist on the whole operation of the government and the region as whole. [B]Again, think big picture.[/B]
One more thing that is also wrong. Without forced resignation, if a person runs for an office in a different branch, and they lose, there will not be a vacant seat. The person would just stay in their old seat until they decide to resign, win an election for another office, or when someone else is elected into their office. With what you propose however, there will always be an empty seat because of this scenario, regardless of whether or not the person wins or loses the new office.
I do not blame you for that. While I am not a fan of the way you got into office, that is not a personal matter. When it comes to personal matters however, it has been, and still is, my opinion that you are a great fit here and I would gladly vote for you.
New Bacon, Parakka Northland
I dont take issue what so ever with someone's motives for change.
I also agree completely with your assessment of the issue
I dont want to continue going around in circles with this issue other than to say I am aware of the wider repercussion on the region of a vacant seat.
Thanks!
New Bacon
For me it's like real life politics.
Just because you run for something else doesn't mean you should lose your current position.
In my state marco rubio (a R Senator) ran for president, he lost, and is still senator. And dwight dudly is running for a judge spot, but he is still a congressman.
You shouldn't be forced off the council or anything just because you seek to help a different branch of government by running for a spot.
New Bacon, Au912 Mystical Council Consulate, Parakka Northland
It also occurred to me, what if, for example, candidate #1 is the only person running for office A, but some people think that candidate #1 is untrustworthy, so they do a write - in campaign for candidate #2 who already holds office B. It does seem a bit... unfair, chaotic, and / or cruel to force candidate #2 to resign office B in order to qualify for office A when they didn't know they would be in the running for office A beforehand, and resigning risks their faction loosing both offices.
As for whether this gives someone too much power to be running for one office while holding another, maybe that should be a campaign issue rather than a constitutional one.
There is also the issue of whether, for example, a Lunar Council member may vote for themselves if they are running for Sentagon president. I still think the Sentagon should choose their own officers, but if I am in the minority I'll let the community decide.
Alistia, Plugo, Parakka Northland
I think that too, and that will be in the proposal i am writing.
Alistia, New Bacon, Exotic Lemon
[nation=short]kazukame[/nation] do you currently have a WA nation?
Thank you [nation=short]plugo[/nation]. No one should be able to give up their seat because they are running for President of Sentagon.
Alistia, Naumadal
Oh yeah there are going to have to be some changes. That's not fair. :(
Alistia, Exotic Lemon, Naumadal
I would like some opinions on my new flag that i made.
I made it as a fuse of the roman and byzantine flag's, with the wheat wreath from the peoples republic of albania.
Tumetu-Iin Noyan
Oh Snap! Region in rebellion!
@ Everyone
Here's what's going to happen. Nothing short of passing a regional law will change my mind or the way we do things. Sentagon must retain control over its own internal proceedings. And that's that.
[spoiler=However........]
THIS IS YOUR REGION!
If it's not fair, then change it. Write a proposal and get two branches of government to pass it as law. Here's your opportunity to shape your region people! If you write a proposal then please prepare a dispatch for everyone's convenience. I have seen tons of good ideas on the RMB. Now it's time to fuse some of them together. That's everyone's homework.[/spoiler]
Nope I think it needs to be an amendment in the constitution in my opinion so that way everything is protected. If you pass a regional law nothing is really protected. [nation=short]forestavia[/nation] you are not ultimately in charge of the region. I'm the WA delegate and I'm not ultimately in charge. You have to work with us. You cannot maneuver around our voices. When something needs to be done it needs to be done. It can be changed by all branches of government. There needs to be some change and that's my final word and I'm not backing down from it. You do realize that me and other nations will continue to raise hell until something is done about it. But like I said the constitution is not official yet. I will come up with more ideas. Sorry for being explicit but it can be changed.
Forestavia, Vaspassia
It looks good, i like the byzantium eagle with the symbol in it.
Yes it can. It could be changed.
What's the argument here about?
I think anyone should be able to run for any sentagon position, and just give up another position if they have one.
Parakka Northland
What do you want changed?
The way the voting system is in Sentagon. I understand that no branch must interfere but you don't have to give up your seat just to run for Sentagon president. That is very authoritarian what Forest is doing. Forest refuses to amend the constitution for some reason regarding this.
Plugo
Dang bacon you're getting tough aren't you?
Forestavia, Plugo
We should just make a constitutional amendment to where lunar council members or the delegate can run for any sentagon position, but if they win they must abdicate their current position.
Vaspassia, Parakka Northland
I hear ya loud and clear. I will vote against any such attempt to include such heresy in our blessed constitution. Yes, even I the one who has pushed so long and hard for the constitution. I will vote against it to protect the sanctity of Sentagon! I am here as a member of Sentagon to tell you that you are all out of line!
*Dramatically points around the room*
Vaspassia, don't you see what Bacon and the Councillors are conspiring to do??? They are trying creep their tentacles into our branch. Don't fall for it!
[I]Otherwise everything will fall apart![/I]
*Dramatically seizes on floor*
*Regains composure*
Alright, then. I need someone to keep track of all of the proposed ideas for changing or altering the constitution. If someone could make a dispatch and list the ideas. I haven't read through all of the RMB only parts it's likely I missed something. Anyone can volunteer for this clerical job. How about one of you members of Sentagon, eh?
New Bacon, Vaspassia, Parakka Northland
Hahaha right. But they are not asking to vote they just want to be able to vote for themselves if they run for President of Sentagon. Either way I don't see it as corrupt because if you loose at least that person will still have their current seat. There definitely needs to be some change.
New Bacon, Plugo, Parakka Northland
Good luck for voting against it. Thats good info to know.
Plugo
Voting rights between Sentagon and other branches.
Plugo
It's the opposite of authoritarian. Because technically, you (as a member of Sentagon) have more say in your own Presidential election. It keeps the centralized government out of what essentially is the "People's Branch". Should the elected government really tell the people who to elect as their President? I think it's a preposterous idea. The Delegate and Lunar Councillors were already elected and hold enough power. I think it's crazy for them to walk into Sentagon and tell them who to vote for for President. It's Sentagon's President! But that's just my opinion. I seem to be outnumbered on this one.
Vaspassia
Lol all of this is confusing.
Forestavia, are you against the proposal of the delegate or lunar council members running for offices in sentagon without first resigning their position?
New Bacon, Vaspassia
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.