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Region: The Mystical Council

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Post by Alistia suppressed by New Bacon.

Alistia

New Bacon wrote:[nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] is a temporary justice. And I'll appoint [nation=short]parakka northland[/nation] as well to be a temporary justice.

Your not the leader of the judical branch though, you have the authority to appoint them, if anything judicial president should do so.

New Bacon wrote:Interim until the 17th when elections go on.

Why would he be interm?

Accoridng to seniority succession, he is the legitimate heir to the presidency.

Gyuamno

Post self-deleted by New Bacon.

You all listen,

I'm not going to keep repeating myself to multiple nations who keep asking me a bunch of questions about what had happened or why the justices voted what they voted on. However, I am not a stupid person. I may act like I'm stupid but I'm not. I've been in this region longer than most of you and I know what's right and I know what's wrong. Do not try to make these scandals a big deal just because the scandals happened. I don't know the answer to every single question. [nation=short]alistia[/nation], I did not make that decision to eject them and please do not think that. However, [nation=short]alistia[/nation] the evidence was needed to support the justices decision. Mugwop provided evidence and I backed him up with the evidence. However I don't think the evidence was enough to support what the justices decision was. This is why we need a constitution period because this government overall is messed up. I would like the justices to rethink their decision. I am not trying to take [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]'s spot at being the president of the judiciaries. I am the prime minister and will be the prime minister for the next two months. I know to stay in my boundaries as far as regional government goes. Most people will disagree with each other and including me. But, don't try to make a scene out of everything that goes on. This is ridiculous as far as I know it so far. There is a messed up concept in this region overall and it needs to be changed. There is no since for all of this foolishness to go on anyway. People are being pushed to the limits when not necessary. I'm even being pushed to the limits because people are flooding my inbox with telegrams asking what has happened. I have no control of all the craziness of what goes on in the region. But it seems like that every little thing goes on and I can never get anything done because we are all competing against each other with an unorganized government. I don't feel like myself when I have to fuss at people who do wrong. We should not even have any moderators trying to come into the region trying to solve these problems anyways. When there is a constitution created then all of this stupidity will be over. Some of you need to do the right thing because I don't know what to tell you all. I can't teach you all to do the right thing on nationstates. It's going to have to come from you yourself. When I first came to this region there was not all of this foolishness going on anyways. It seems like everyday the region gets bigger there is more foolishness that goes on and it needs to stop. All of this arguing and fussing needs to go to a minimum. I'd rather Roleplay than argue all of the time. I mean [region=Solar Alliance] does a better job at Roleplay than we do. We should not be having to deal with these issues that go on in this region. We need to learn to work together as a whole and stop competing against each other. Because right now I feel like this region is weighing me down as far as Roleplay. If you all push me to the limits I may have to consider another region. It does not make any sense whatsoever that we have to deal with these type of things that should not even go on in the first place. I hope you all understand.

Forestavia, Civilisunio, Parakka Northland

Whew...that is alot of words.

New Bacon, Truxol

New Bacon wrote:You all listen,

I'm not going to keep repeating myself to multiple nations who keep asking me a bunch of questions about what had happened or why the justices voted what they voted on. However, I am not a stupid person. I may act like I'm stupid but I'm not. I've been in this region longer than most of you and I know what's right and I know what's wrong. Do not try to make these scandals a big deal just because the scandals happened. I don't know the answer to every single question. [nation=short]alistia[/nation], I did not make that decision to eject them and please do not think that. However, [nation=short]alistia[/nation] the evidence was needed to support the justices decision. Mugwop provided evidence and I backed him up with the evidence. However I don't think the evidence was enough to support what the justices decision was. This is why we need a constitution period because this government overall is messed up. I would like the justices to rethink their decision. I am not trying to take [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]'s spot at being the president of the judiciaries. I am the prime minister and will be the prime minister for the next two months. I know to stay in my boundaries as far as regional government goes. Most people will disagree with each other and including me. But, don't try to make a scene out of everything that goes on. This is ridiculous as far as I know it so far. There is a messed up concept in this region overall and it needs to be changed. There is no since for all of this foolishness to go on anyway. People are being pushed to the limits when not necessary. I'm even being pushed to the limits because people are flooding my inbox with telegrams asking what has happened. I have no control of all the craziness of what goes on in the region. But it seems like that every little thing goes on and I can never get anything done because we are all competing against each other with an unorganized government. I don't feel like myself when I have to fuss at people who do wrong. We should not even have any moderators trying to come into the region trying to solve these problems anyways. When there is a constitution created then all of this stupidity will be over. Some of you need to do the right thing because I don't know what to tell you all. I can't teach you all to do the right thing on nationstates. It's going to have to come from you yourself. When I first came to this region there was not all of this foolishness going on anyways. It seems like everyday the region gets bigger there is more foolishness that goes on and it needs to stop. All of this arguing and fussing needs to go to a minimum. I'd rather Roleplay than argue all of the time. I mean [region=Solar Alliance] does a better job at Roleplay than we do. We should not be having to deal with these issues that go on in this region. We need to learn to work together as a whole and stop competing against each other. Because right now I feel like this region is weighing me down as far as Roleplay. If you all push me to the limits I may have to consider another region. It does not make any sense whatsoever that we have to deal with these type of things that should not even go on in the first place. I hope you all understand.

That's why I have left before.

Alistia wrote:Your not the leader of the judical branch though, you have the authority to appoint them, if anything judicial president should do so.

Why would he be interm?

Accoridng to seniority succession, he is the legitimate heir to the presidency.

Let me refer you to my previous post and if you would like to tell me since when we as a region changed our minds regarding automatic removal from one position when elected to a new one that would be grand

Parakka Northland wrote:I think if we are going to have a vote on shrinking the judicial branch then we should also probably reelect all members on it. New branch beginning should have new or reelected members (then let the members decide who will be the president) that would seem to be the best solution to this situation. Also as [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] was elected delegate, even if he did resign so to speak from the position at the first available chance it did automatically remove him from the judicial branch as to my understanding it was agreed that once elected to a new position you automatically forfeit your old one. Though i could be wrong on the latter part mind.

Yes ill be running, might as well do something useful around here haha

Malcholm, Truxol

New Bacon wrote:You all listen,

I'm not going to keep repeating myself to multiple nations who keep asking me a bunch of questions about what had happened or why the justices voted what they voted on. However, I am not a stupid person. I may act like I'm stupid but I'm not. I've been in this region longer than most of you and I know what's right and I know what's wrong. Do not try to make these scandals a big deal just because the scandals happened. I don't know the answer to every single question. [nation=short]alistia[/nation], I did not make that decision to eject them and please do not think that. However, [nation=short]alistia[/nation] the evidence was needed to support the justices decision. Mugwop provided evidence and I backed him up with the evidence. However I don't think the evidence was enough to support what the justices decision was. This is why we need a constitution period because this government overall is messed up. I would like the justices to rethink their decision. I am not trying to take [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]'s spot at being the president of the judiciaries. I am the prime minister and will be the prime minister for the next two months. I know to stay in my boundaries as far as regional government goes. Most people will disagree with each other and including me. But, don't try to make a scene out of everything that goes on. This is ridiculous as far as I know it so far. There is a messed up concept in this region overall and it needs to be changed. There is no since for all of this foolishness to go on anyway. People are being pushed to the limits when not necessary. I'm even being pushed to the limits because people are flooding my inbox with telegrams asking what has happened. I have no control of all the craziness of what goes on in the region. But it seems like that every little thing goes on and I can never get anything done because we are all competing against each other with an unorganized government. I don't feel like myself when I have to fuss at people who do wrong. We should not even have any moderators trying to come into the region trying to solve these problems anyways. When there is a constitution created then all of this stupidity will be over. Some of you need to do the right thing because I don't know what to tell you all. I can't teach you all to do the right thing on nationstates. It's going to have to come from you yourself. When I first came to this region there was not all of this foolishness going on anyways. It seems like everyday the region gets bigger there is more foolishness that goes on and it needs to stop. All of this arguing and fussing needs to go to a minimum. I'd rather Roleplay than argue all of the time. I mean [region=Solar Alliance] does a better job at Roleplay than we do. We should not be having to deal with these issues that go on in this region. We need to learn to work together as a whole and stop competing against each other. Because right now I feel like this region is weighing me down as far as Roleplay. If you all push me to the limits I may have to consider another region. It does not make any sense whatsoever that we have to deal with these type of things that should not even go on in the first place. I hope you all understand.

I wasn't aware a formal decision had been reached on wheather to ban, eject or do nothing.... last I knew I simply made my opinion known with what had been presented at the time. I am open to hearing an appeal and if one is not forthcoming then I'll happy order the case to be reopened, based on the fact no formal decision had been reached, to my knowledge.

Alistia, New Bacon, Truxol

Parakka Northland wrote:I wasn't aware a formal decision had been reached on wheather to ban, eject or do nothing.... last I knew I simply made my opinion known with what had been presented at the time. I am open to hearing an appeal and if one is not forthcoming then I'll happy order the case to be reopened, based on the fact no formal decision had been reached, to my knowledge.

8 hours ago you said we should eject (but not ban) the plaintiff in question, and we all agreed. The plaintiff however was given a 3 day notice to fairly explain himself. If he doesn't do that, he will be ejected, but not banned. If he returns back to the region and does not provide an adequate explanation of his actions, he will be ejected and banned.

The plaintiff in question is the only one subject to trial, as he is the only one from the group who is an actual resident of our region. The other members of the group, none of them are resident of the region and were all guilty outsider spies, thus they are not subject to our justice and (unlike the discussed plaintiff) are undeserving of a trial.

You also called me mugwort in that telegram. :[ This I will not forget this.

-----------------------------------

[nation=short]Alistia[/nation]/[nation=short]New Bacon[/nation] Few points for the two of you to stop your arguing and writing blocks of text.

1. [nation=short]Parakka_Northland[/nation]/[nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] are temporary JB members until Jan 17th.

2. [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] is a temporary JB president, but an official JB member. The official JB president is [nation=short]illfated[/nation], unfortunately he has not been active in any of this or anything before, that is why we need an active president.

3. [nation=short]New Bacon[/nation] (as Prime Minister) can appoint temporary positions, but he the Judicial President to agree to it, which we technically don't have before the decision was made, in which case the delegate ([nation=short]Teurs[/nation]). This is a two person decision. [B]So [nation=short]Teurs[/nation] please look at #1 and #2 and see if you agree with [nation=short]New Bacon[/nation]'s decision[/B]

4. The JB is officially made of 5 people. Following the end of this poll, we will erect a new poll to see if the region agrees to shrink down the council, due to us always having vacant seats. This is a major change to our goverment and needs approval from the whole region.

-----------------------------------

Parakka Northland wrote: [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] was elected delegate, even if he did resign so to speak from the position at the first available chance it did automatically remove him from the judicial branch as to my understanding it was agreed that once elected to a new position you automatically forfeit your old one.

Not quite. Though it's difficult to postulate this because this has yet to be ratified https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=743586#proposals the general consensus in the region is that a new delegate has 48 hours to make his decision. [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] never had the delegate position for 48 continuous hours since he was elected into the JB, thus he still holds the position. And speaking of which, I still welcome more opinions on this proposal https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=743586#proposals I will finalize the ideas and submit it to vote to later than February 5th.

Malcholm, Teurs

I also should clarify some questions now that the situation has ended, regarding "the puppet coup". Some of you know all this, some of you know some, and some know none at all.

>Who were those people?

They were a joint task force from between Allied Federation Of Nations and Kaiserreich who came here to do some shenanigans.

>How long have known about all this?

We have known about this for over a month, since the first time [nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation] (A.K.A. Nucerea) contacted [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation], thinking he can manipulate Civ to do his bidding.

>Why did we not act immediately after learning of their presence?

These parasitic spies are feeble and pathetic, however, we first needed to learn as much as we can about their plot, to see who is and is not involved with them. While it was obvious who the whole group was, there was some uncertainty about some, particularly [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation] when he first joined. However, when Nucerea started attacking him, it started to become obvious that [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation] was an innocent passerby who was caught in the this; the moderators also confirmed that.

>Did [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] ever betray the region?

No. The allegations made by those idiots about [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] are the utmost of stupidity and falseness, so that's all I will say about those.

>What about [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]?

After [nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation] plot to use [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] as a pawn in his ridiculous crusade had failed, he turned to [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]. He wanted someone who has a foot in our goverment, but not that much. He thought [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] will surely sellout to him. He made his contact with [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] about 17 days ago from Nucerea, in a telegram that also included me, and his initial task force of goons ([nation=short]Rickism[/nation], [nation=short]Sadaria[/nation], and [nation=short]Sanctine[/nation]) He postulated to us that we should make a political party called "the Gyuamno Bloc" (wonderful name, I know) whose purpose is to get [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] the delegate. I believe that Nucerea included me in his failed scheme because he had seen me earlier nominate [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] for a seat on the JB. So naturally he thought that not only will [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] play into his plot, but so will I. He was horribly wrong on both account.

Nucerea/[nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation]'s plan was very dumb. The idea was to get [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] into the delegate position, who would then remove everyone from the goverment, abolish elections, and simply appoint people from "the Gyuamno Bloc" into power. What a joke. They even thought they could outsmart our founder, thinking that [nation=short]Oakplumington[/nation] actually needs influence to ban them.

>What about the screenshots of the telegrams sent by [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation], or were they fake?

NOPE, unlike the alleged telegrams associated with [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation], those telegram screenshots were not faked. So what does that mean? It means that [B]I was the one who told [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] to send these telegrams[/B].

As I mentioned earlier, even though their plan was weak, we had to make sure that it was undoubtedly doomed to crash and burn and learn everyone who's involved, and so we needed to know information. That's why I asked [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] to bait them by showing interest and asking questions.

>[B]Lastly, was The Mystical Council ever in danger?[/B]

Absolutely not. In a way, it was an entertaining joke. This was by far the most laughable attempt to attack our region, and yet ironically the most extensive (they made a whole damn region for this thing) thus this was the most inefficient failure since that time Australia lost a war against a bunch of Emus.

Alistia, Malcholm, Truxol

Mugwop wrote:2. [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] is a temporary JB president, but an official JB member. The official JB president is [nation=short]illfated[/nation], unfortunately he has not been active in any of this or anything before, that is why we need an active president.

Alistia wrote:l agree wirh shrinking the judiciary to 3.

Teurs told me he has resigned his judiciary seat.

Illfated also told me he will resign since others have a lot of interest in it, assuming we shrink it to 3.

If we shrink it to 3:

President: gyuamno

Judge:

Judge:

I know the immortal elyslium and formidable opponent are running, and maybe parakka?

I suppose we need an official resignation though, don't we?

Truxol

New Bacon wrote:I do have the authority to appoint them what are you talking about? I know I'm not the leader. And I forgot about the seniority succession. Good catch at least.

Since when?

The prime minister never had the ability to appoint nations as judges, as they are always elected.

No clause anywhere in govt says anything like that.

If anyone would be allowed to appoint judges, should be the judicial pres, not someone from a completely different branch, the pms job is to handle the ministry, not the judiciary.

Mugwop wrote:I also should clarify some questions now that the situation has ended, regarding "the puppet coup". Some of you know all this, some of you know some, and some know none at all.

>Who were those people?

They were a joint task force from between Allied Federation Of Nations and Kaiserreich who came here to do some shenanigans.

>How long have known about all this?

We have known about this for over a month, since the first time [nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation] (A.K.A. Nucerea) contacted [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation], thinking he can manipulate Civ to do his bidding.

>Why did we not act immediately after learning of their presence?

These parasitic spies are feeble and pathetic, however, we first needed to learn as much as we can about their plot, to see who is and is not involved with them. While it was obvious who the whole group was, there was some uncertainty about some, particularly [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation] when he first joined. However, when Nucerea started attacking him, it started to become obvious that [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation] was an innocent passerby who was caught in the this; the moderators also confirmed that.

>Did [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] ever betray the region?

No. The allegations made by those idiots about [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] are the utmost of stupidity and falseness, so that's all I will say about those.

>What about [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]?

After [nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation] plot to use [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] as a pawn in his ridiculous crusade had failed, he turned to [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation]. He wanted someone who has a foot in our goverment, but not that much. He thought [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] will surely sellout to him. He made his contact with [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] about 17 days ago from Nucerea, in a telegram that also included me, and his initial task force of goons ([nation=short]Rickism[/nation], [nation=short]Sadaria[/nation], and [nation=short]Sanctine[/nation]) He postulated to us that we should make a political party called "the Gyuamno Bloc" (wonderful name, I know) whose purpose is to get [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] the delegate. I believe that Nucerea included me in his failed scheme because he had seen me earlier nominate [nation=short]gyuamno[/nation] for a seat on the JB. So naturally he thought that not only will [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] play into his plot, but so will I. He was horribly wrong on both account.

Nucerea/[nation=short]Gotesbourg[/nation]'s plan was very dumb. The idea was to get [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] into the delegate position, who would then remove everyone from the goverment, abolish elections, and simply appoint people from "the Gyuamno Bloc" into power. What a joke. They even thought they could outsmart our founder, thinking that [nation=short]Oakplumington[/nation] actually needs influence to ban them.

>What about the screenshots of the telegrams sent by [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation], or were they fake?

NOPE, unlike the alleged telegrams associated with [nation=short]Formidable Opponent[/nation], those telegram screenshots were not faked. So what does that mean? It means that [B]I was the one who told [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] to send these telegrams[/B].

As I mentioned earlier, even though their plan was weak, we had to make sure that it was undoubtedly doomed to crash and burn and learn everyone who's involved, and so we needed to know information. That's why I asked [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] to bait them by showing interest and asking questions.

>[B]Lastly, was The Mystical Council ever in danger?[/B]

Absolutely not. In a way, it was an entertaining joke. This was by far the most laughable attempt to attack our region, and yet ironically the most extensive (they made a whole damn region for this thing) thus this was the most inefficient failure since that time Australia lost a war against a bunch of Emus.

In in general we agreed with your list, but why is gregorstan on there? Hes a native and has been here since close to the time TSO fell.

Malcholm wrote:I suppose we need an official resignation though, don't we?

Is letting an officer know not official?

Mugwop wrote:8 hours ago you said we should eject (but not ban) the plaintiff in question, and we all agreed. The plaintiff however was given a 3 day notice to fairly explain himself. If he doesn't do that, he will be ejected, but not banned. If he returns back to the region and does not provide an adequate explanation of his actions, he will be ejected and banned.

The plaintiff in question is the only one subject to trial, as he is the only one from the group who is an actual resident of our region. The other members of the group, none of them are resident of the region and were all guilty outsider spies, thus they are not subject to our justice and (unlike the discussed plaintiff) are undeserving of a trial.

You also called me mugwort in that telegram. :[ This I will not forget this.

I'm aware of what I said what I'm not aware is the outcome of that decision if the other judges agreed. I'm equally until now unaware that he has been given 3 days notice to explain himself and that there are different scales of punishment depending on if he explains himself etc. As such it's fair to say that the judicial branch has not made a conclusive conclusion as there been a breakdown in communication between us at some point within the last 12 hours due possibly to time zone differences

Malcholm wrote:I suppose we need an official resignation though, don't we?

I was under the impression back in November that if you were elected to a new position you were automatically removed from the previous one.....

Alistia wrote:Since when?

The prime minister never had the ability to appoint nations as judges, as they are always elected.

No clause anywhere in govt says anything like that.

If anyone would be allowed to appoint judges, should be the judicial pres, not someone from a completely different branch, the pms job is to handle the ministry, not the judiciary.

As I said before, he can make the decision, but not alone.

This was the same case with when Parakka (who won this poll https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=75751) but then became delegate. To appoint the second most popular choice as the PM elect, the current PM (who was you then) and the JB president had to approve. Not the PM alone, and not the JB president alone, both must do it. In the case that one of the two is incapable of deciding, the delegate becomes the second decision maker.

Alistia wrote:In in general we agreed with your list, but why is gregorstan on there? Hes a native and has been here since close to the time TSO fell.

And that is why unlike the other nations, Gregorstan was the only one tried as he is a native that has rights in this region.

Nucerea seems to have contacted a number of WA members in our region, who don't hold high level government positions. He believed those are the ones most likely to persuade to betray the region to support his clan. Most likely he promised them some sort of position in his "new government"

Gregorstan was the one who took the bait. And so while he had not endorsed any of our native residents, he conspired with Nucerea group and endorsed him and other members of this group.

For this it was decided that Gregorstan is to be given 3 days to explain his actions; otherwise be ejected..

Malcholm

Parakka Northland wrote:I'm aware of what I said what I'm not aware is the outcome of that decision if the other judges agreed. I'm equally until now unaware that he has been given 3 days notice to explain himself and that there are different scales of punishment depending on if he explains himself etc. As such it's fair to say that the judicial branch has not made a conclusive conclusion as there been a breakdown in communication between us at some point within the last 12 hours due possibly to time zone differences

My apologies. The telegram that you sent us, [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] and I discussed it on Discord and we agreed to your suggestion. That is why I assumed we were all in consensus. We also mentioned your name over there to make sure you saw the discussion.

The 3 day period however was added by me. I thought it was fair to give him a timeframe to explain himself, before we eject him. I hope you find this agreeable.

Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Parakka Northland wrote:I was under the impression back in November that if you were elected to a new position you were automatically removed from the previous one.....

I thought it had changed since then??????? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I was under the impression that they had to resign from the old position before taking on the responsibilities of the new one, and that it was up to them if they wanted to take the position. If people were forced to resign from positions simply by being elected, we could write people in and elect them to new positions without their consent, or make them a temporary delegate and force them out of office.

Alistia wrote:Is letting an officer know not official?

It is, but they should let all of us know, not just you ;P

Parakka Northland

Alistia wrote:Is letting an officer know not official?

Best make it public though.

Malcholm, Parakka Northland

^^Don't worry about all the post suppression, just cleaning up our RMB ;)

Parakka Northland

Malcholm wrote:I thought it had changed since then??????? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I was under the impression that they had to resign from the old position before taking on the responsibilities of the new one, and that it was up to them if they wanted to take the position. If people were forced to resign from positions simply by being elected, we could write people in and elect them to new positions without their consent, or make them a temporary delegate and force them out of office.

It is, but they should let all of us know, not just you ;P

No worries I could have missed something at some point.... been rather busy in RL and on NS lately. If I've made a mistake I'm happy to apologise :)

Malcholm

Mugwop wrote:My apologies. The telegram that you sent us, [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] and I discussed it on Discord and we agreed to your suggestion. That is why I assumed we were all in consensus. We also mentioned your name over there to make sure you saw the discussion.

The 3 day period however was added by me. I thought it was fair to give him a timeframe to explain himself, before we eject him. I hope you find this agreeable.

Ah no worries I know I can't see the judge channel and only the judicial hall channel at present on discord so that could be the route of the problem perhaps?

Malcholm

Post self-deleted by New Bacon.

Oakplumington wrote:In the interest of cutting red tape and keeping things running smoothly, I'm going to put the Monarch's signature on these appointments.

I hereby approve of Prime Minister New Bacon's judicial appointments.

(There is supposed to be a Lunar Council election coming up in a few days. Maybe we can get elections and campaigns underway so that these appointments can become official.)

Some of you probably can't read or maybe your just blind. [nation=short]alistia[/nation] refer to this post. I've said what I had to say already.

New Bacon wrote:Some of you probably can't read or maybe your just blind. [nation=short]alistia[/nation] refer to this post. I've said what I had to say already.

Gotta admit, I too forgot about this.

So that settles it. The appointments are official until the election.

New Bacon, Malcholm

Mugwop wrote:As I said before, he can make the decision, but not alone.

This was the same case with when Parakka (who won this poll https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=75751) but then became delegate. To appoint the second most popular choice as the PM elect, the current PM (who was you then) and the JB president had to approve. Not the PM alone, and not the JB president alone, both must do it. In the case that one of the two is incapable of deciding, the delegate becomes the second decision maker.

And that is why unlike the other nations, Gregorstan was the only one tried as he is a native that has rights in this region.

Nucerea seems to have contacted a number of WA members in our region, who don't hold high level government positions. He believed those are the ones most likely to persuade to betray the region to support his clan. Most likely he promised them some sort of position in his "new government"

Gregorstan was the one who took the bait. And so while he had not endorsed any of our native residents, he conspired with Nucerea group and endorsed him and other members of this group.

For this it was decided that Gregorstan is to be given 3 days to explain his actions; otherwise be ejected..

Hes always been inactive and wont respond in those three days.

Your conclusion to eject a native for no reason also violates the basic rights of nations which states that all natives of tmc can endorse who they want.

New Bacon wrote:Some of you probably can't read or maybe your just blind. [nation=short]alistia[/nation] refer to this post. I've said what I had to say already.

But parakka and some others want judicial reform, pushing the election date even further.

Gyuamno

I oppose the tyranny the judicial branch is trying to implement on the region.

Gyuamno

Alistia wrote:I oppose the tyranny the judicial branch is trying to implement on the region.

K, so vote against it when we begin the reforms :::::)))) I don't believe our region has the assets to fill a five-seat judiciary.

Also, we can't go about electing inactive nations into our judiciary anymore. It's impossible to do anything when half the seats are filled with people who won't participate.

Parakka Northland

Post self-deleted by Teurs.

Malcholm wrote:K, so vote against it when we begin the reforms :::::)))) I don't believe our region has the assets to fill a five-seat judiciary.

Also, we can't go about electing inactive nations into our judiciary anymore. It's impossible to do anything when half the seats are filled with people who won't participate.

? I agree, but greg should not be banned, as minister of defense i say he is no threat to the region.

Gyuamno, Malcholm

Post self-deleted by Teurs.

Alistia wrote:I oppose the tyranny the judicial branch is trying to implement on the region.

I agree wholeheartedly agree. Tyranny is not the way any branch should go.

Gyuamno, Alistia, Civilisunio

Alistia wrote:Hes always been inactive and wont respond in those three days.

Your conclusion to eject a native [B]for no reason[/B] also violates the basic rights of nations which states that all natives of tmc can endorse who they want.

Well he sure was active during "the puppet coup" and he endorsed Nucerea and several other members of that group. Did he endorse any natives of our region? NOPE, just the puppet clown squad. He betrayed the region.

That is the reason.

That's why it was decided to eject him.

Still, this will be carried out 2 days from now, to await his response to the telegrams sent to him.

Moreover, if he gives no response and is ejected, then again this is just an ejection. If he returns later on with a good explanation for what he has done, I don't see why we can't welcome him back.

New Bacon, Malcholm

Alistia wrote:But parakka and some others want judicial reform, pushing the election date even further.

There will be an election for the JB on the 17th. This is what was always planned. This is set in stone and not subject to change

>January 17

3 Day candidacy poll for the seat of a Judicial Councillor on Mystical Council

>January 21

3 Day election poll for the seat of a Judicial Councillor on The Mystical Council

We got plenty of time till then for all sort of reform polls, but the dates for election matter polls are not moved

New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Alistia wrote:Hes always been inactive and wont respond in those three days.

Your conclusion to eject a native for no reason also violates the basic rights of nations which states that all natives of tmc can endorse who they want.

But parakka and some others want judicial reform, pushing the election date even further.

Like it or not [nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] does raise a valid point that he was active when he endorsed the "Puppet Clown Squad", I will go on record as saying under the basic rights of nations Part 1 you are correct but under part 3 he could by his actions have violated the regions laws and we need to determine parts 2 and 4 as that also has a baring on the situation and then determine whether or not he knew about the coup attempt. Now again personally i dont think every telegram we saw over the two/three days were all forgeries (i do agree that probably on the balance of probability 98% were mind) as such again that raises the question of was he in any of them and if so what was his responses. As such its paramount that he actually participates in the trial to provide evidence of his innocence and answer some questions.

I have put all of the above here because im getting tired of this being suggested/said/whatever else really vv

Alistia wrote:I oppose the tyranny the judicial branch is trying to implement on the region.

Equally i should remind you it was only back in October that a revolution happened where a delegate took power and then removed a whole elected branch of government without the democratic will of the people (oh he was supported by puppets mind if i remember correctly) and that was perfectly acceptable then. My point is to accuse us of being tyrannical COULD be seen as a little hypocritical by some..... In addition by saying what i have in the first paragraph i hope it shows that i have a thought process in this matter before i finalise any decision.

Forestavia, New Bacon, Malcholm, Viva Italia

As my mission failed i have brought my WA back here and have endorsed all WA nations (just for the record)

Civilisunio

Thank you [nation=short]parakka northland[/nation] and [nation=short]mugwop[/nation] for explaining further to [nation=short]alistia[/nation]. [nation=short]alistia[/nation] like it or not, you may disagree with many things and I get that but nothing is changing too much. The justices that I appointed will not change either until elections. Our government has a U.K. type government not an American style government. The prime minister mostly has executive powers in U.K. Please do understand what [nation=short]mugwop[/nation] and [nation=short]parakka northland[/nation] are telling you.

Parakka Northland

Mugwop wrote:Well he sure was active during "the puppet coup" and he endorsed Nucerea and several other members of that group. Did he endorse any natives of our region? NOPE, just the puppet clown squad. He betrayed the region.

That is the reason.

That's why it was decided to eject him.

Still, this will be carried out 2 days from now, to await his response to the telegrams sent to him.

Moreover, if he gives no response and is ejected, then again this is just an ejection. If he returns later on with a good explanation for what he has done, I don't see why we can't welcome him back.

No he wasnt active then either, he endorsed people who publicly asked for them, endorsing someone is not a crime.

Parakka Northland wrote:Like it or not [nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] does raise a valid point that he was active when he endorsed the "Puppet Clown Squad", I will go on record as saying under the basic rights of nations Part 1 you are correct but under part 3 he could by his actions have violated the regions laws and we need to determine parts 2 and 4 as that also has a baring on the situation and then determine whether or not he knew about the coup attempt. Now again personally i dont think every telegram we saw over the two/three days were all forgeries (i do agree that probably on the balance of probability 98% were mind) as such again that raises the question of was he in any of them and if so what was his responses. As such its paramount that he actually participates in the trial to provide evidence of his innocence and answer some questions.

I have put all of the above here because im getting tired of this being suggested/said/whatever else really vv

Equally i should remind you it was only back in October that a revolution happened where a delegate took power and then removed a whole elected branch of government without the democratic will of the people (oh he was supported by puppets mind if i remember correctly) and that was perfectly acceptable then. My point is to accuse us of being tyrannical COULD be seen as a little hypocritical by some..... In addition by saying what i have in the first paragraph i hope it shows that i have a thought process in this matter before i finalise any decision.

Where is the law that says you arent allowed to give an endorsement to someone who asks?

New Bacon wrote:Thank you [nation=short]parakka northland[/nation] and [nation=short]mugwop[/nation] for explaining further to [nation=short]alistia[/nation]. [nation=short]alistia[/nation] like it or not, you may disagree with many things and I get that but nothing is changing too much. The justices that I appointed will not change either until elections. Our government has a U.K. type government not an American style government. The prime minister mostly has executive powers in U.K. Please do understand what [nation=short]mugwop[/nation] and [nation=short]parakka northland[/nation] are telling you.

I made the goverment form we are using, and nowhere in the dispatch or in the creation of the government ever did it say the pm could do anything to the judiciary. The whole point of the pres is to lead them, and i was the first pm, the pm doesnt have any authority over the judiciary

Alistia wrote:No he wasnt active then either, he endorsed people who publicly asked for them, endorsing someone is not a crime.

Where is the law that says you arent allowed to give an endorsement to someone who asks?

I made the goverment form we are using, and nowhere in the dispatch or in the creation of the government ever did it say the pm could do anything to the judiciary. The whole point of the pres is to lead them, and i was the first pm, the pm doesnt have any authority over the judiciary

i have explained my thought process already as such I would prefer not to keep on having to repeate myself, but I would reread parts 1 - 5 (I think) again and then consider how each part can be interpreted depending on the perspective you wish to take

Alistia wrote:No he wasnt active then either, he endorsed people who publicly asked for them, endorsing someone is not a crime.

Where is the law that says you arent allowed to give an endorsement to someone who asks?

I made the goverment form we are using, and nowhere in the dispatch or in the creation of the government ever did it say the pm could do anything to the judiciary. The whole point of the pres is to lead them, and i was the first pm, the pm doesnt have any authority over the judiciary

Yes I do. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏*the crowd claps*

Alistia wrote:No he wasnt active then either, he endorsed people who publicly asked for them, endorsing someone is not a crime.

Where is the law that says you arent allowed to give an endorsement to someone who asks?

This is exactly the reason why I'm dragging my feet with the whole ejection/ban thing. I see what the others are saying about the suspicious endorsement behavior. It is odd. But like you said it is legal from what I can tell. I'd like to see what the Lunar Councillors say first during and after the trial.

Gyuamno, Malcholm, Civilisunio

Forestavia wrote:This is exactly the reason why I'm dragging my feet with the whole ejection/ban thing. I see what the others are saying about the suspicious endorsement behavior. It is odd. But like you said it is legal from what I can tell. I'd like to see what the Lunar Councillors say first during and after the trial.

Speaking of ejection. [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] you must appear before the lunar council with your case and defense in (Former) World Assembly Delegate [nation=short]Civilisunio[/nation] vs. (Former) Prime Minister [nation=short]Alistia[/nation].

Firstly, hey oak, long time no see. Secondly I honestly struggle to see why people are even mentioning a trial. Regardless of his intentions, endorsing someone is not a crime and never will be unless you guys add an endorsement limit.

Forestavia, Alistia, New Bacon, Malcholm, Viva Italia

We have way too many trials in this region.

Alistia, New Bacon, Malcholm, Chingis

Chingis wrote:Firstly, hey oak, long time no see. Secondly I honestly struggle to see why people are even mentioning a trial. Regardless of his intentions, endorsing someone is not a crime and never will be unless you guys add an endorsement limit.

Chingislan? Is that you?

Gyuamno, Alistia, New Bacon, Malcholm, Civilisunio, Parakka Northland, Chingis

Forestavia wrote:Chingislan? Is that you?

Thats him.

Malcholm

Forestavia wrote:Chingislan? Is that you?

I nagged him to join back in

Forestavia, New Bacon, Malcholm

Forestavia wrote:We have way too many trials in this region.

Yeah this is why the lunar councillors go inactive, overworked

Forestavia, Malcholm, Civilisunio

For those who don't know, Chingislan was our region's ninth Delegate. Chingislan and Jegerkompaniet tag raided the place and then we did the only logical thing we could do: we gave them two unfilled seats on the Lunar Council. Those were the days...

Gyuamno, New Bacon, Malcholm, Barishmacht, Civilisunio, Parakka Northland, Chingis

Forestavia wrote:For those who don't know, Chingislan was our region's ninth Delegate. Chingislan and Jegerkompaniet tag raided the place and then we did the only logical thing we could do: we gave them two unfilled seats on the Lunar Council. Those were the days...

Lol.

Forestavia wrote:For those who don't know, Chingislan was our region's ninth Delegate. Chingislan and Jegerkompaniet tag raided the place and then we did the only logical thing we could do: we gave them two unfilled seats on the Lunar Council. Those were the days...

Now we eject people for just endorsing... uh, forget it.

*mutters something unintelligibly to self*

Gyuamno, New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland, Chingis

I'll step down as judiciary president on the 17th since mugwop and parakka are doing it that day too.

Besides that I agree with mugwop a list, except gregorstan who I think did nothing wrong and shouldn't be kicked.

Forestavia, New Bacon, Civilisunio, Rondaland, Teurs

New Bacon wrote:I'd rather Roleplay than argue all of the time. I mean [region=Solar Alliance] does a better job at Roleplay than we do....Because right now I feel like this region is weighing me down as far as Roleplay....

Besides being involved with some stuff in my life, your point is a good one and is an additional reason why the majority of my NS time is spent in Parakka's region. It's simply more fun. Although, I do get a chuckle out of the number of scandals we have in this region. But I think we should institute a soft merge with Solar Alliance down the road. Or even an RP alliance type of deal (in case people get scared when they hear the word "merge"). That's my opinion. We've got embassies so we wouldn't have to move. We could still have our own constitution, government, and whatnot. Maybe we could even get dual citizenship.

New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland, Rondaland, Teurs

Forestavia wrote:Besides being involved with some stuff in my life, your point is a good one and is an additional reason why the majority of my NS time is spent in Parakka's region. It's simply more fun. Although, I do get a chuckle out of the number of scandals we have in this region. But I think we should institute a soft merge with Solar Alliance down the road. Or even an RP alliance type of deal (in case people get scared when they hear the word "merge"). That's my opinion. We've got embassies so we wouldn't have to move. We could still have our own constitution, government, and whatnot. Maybe we could even get dual citizenship.

Some of them I don't find that funny.

Parakka Northland

New Bacon wrote:Some of them I don't find that funny.

It just gets old after awhile. The good news is that our government is becoming more functional and efficient. We've come a long way since August.

New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland, Rondaland, Teurs

Forestavia wrote:It just gets old after awhile. The good news is that our government is becoming more functional and efficient. We've come a long way since August.

Scandals and coups are the lifeblood of tmc, i love them.

From a juicy Alistia gaining 5 endorsements and taking delegacy, from a naumadal revolution, to being infiltrated by enemies, we are a special and important region!

I look forward to seeing which political power will try to rise up next.

Also, banning everyone because they endorsed someone will not increase our foreign outlook at all, and gregorstan used to be active and was cool, he shouldn't be ejected.

I mean Chingis and Jegor raided us in February and after the raid got in the LC, this internal coup was different, but with no real evidence tying him to the group, don't eject him.

Tmc Law, Don't Fail Us Now.

Gyuamno, Forestavia, Malcholm, Civilisunio, Parakka Northland, Teurs

I will not be active for the rest of the week. I will be on discord to discuss any issues however.

Gyuamno, Malcholm, Civilisunio, Parakka Northland, Teurs

Ok guys I think the main question that needs to be answered is:- Did he endorse these people knowing what they were planning or was he forced somehow to do so? Now once those questions are answered it will fundamentally effect the case. Why you ask? Well if he knew about the cope and chose to endorse them then he will be guilty of raiding (or trying to) his own region, thus he broke our laws, by placing the region in peril. If he knew but was forced to endorse them then he would likely be found innocent. If he didn't know then he would be found innocent. In terms of the latter points that would be because as everyone has rightly said you can endorse anyone in the region if you wish. Also if your forced to do something like this, then there has to be a real reason so that could mean your innocent.

Forestavia, Civilisunio

Alistia wrote:No he wasnt active then either, he endorsed people who publicly asked for them, endorsing someone is not a crime.

Where is the law that says you arent allowed to give an endorsement to someone who asks?

3 Things.

1. I know for a fact that [nation=short]civilisunio[/nation] at that time was going around asking for endorsements. Civ is a native of ours, why didn't [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation] endorse him? Why did he only endorse the puppet squad?

2. I might be wrong here, but I don't recall any member of the clown squad publicly asking for endorsements. Even though were extremely obvious, they tried to do things "hush hush" by limiting such solicitations to telegram. And that's how I believe they contacted [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation]. They told him to endorse their embarrassingly failed attempt, with promise of some postion of power in their new goverment. This is the same thing they tried with Civ and Gyu, but it appears that Grego fell for it.

3. When all is said and done, the decision to eject him can easily be undone, before or after the fact, should he come forth with a reasonable explanation. This is the most important point. Unlike the election dates I mentioned earlier, [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation]'s verdict is not set in stone.

All of that is nice and all but I still fail to see any specific example of a set in stone reason to call him guilty. Regardless of the psychological deductions you may come to, nothing he did was illegal.

Alistia, Teurs

Chingis wrote:All of that is nice and all but I still fail to see any specific example of a set in stone reason to call him guilty. Regardless of the psychological deductions you may come to, nothing he did was illegal.

Seriously? How many times do I have to repeat this?

He went ahead and specifically endorsed ONLY members of the puppet squad. [B]He didn't just endorse anyone who asked for endorsements; he ONLY endorsed members of the puppet squad[/B] (that's the set in stone reason) who had lured him in just as they tried to lure Civ and Gyu.

He is guilty by association. That's what the evidence point towards and I can't say this over again.

So that's why we decided to eject him on the 10th, that's it. Still, if he can produce a valid and convincing reason for endorsing the "infiltrators" that shows his innocence, whether it be before or after his ejection, then I don't why we can't review his case and welcome him back into the region.

Mugwop wrote:Seriously? How many times do I have to repeat this?

He went ahead and specifically endorsed ONLY members of the puppet squad. [B]He didn't just endorse anyone who asked for endorsements; he ONLY endorsed members of the puppet squad[/B] (that's the set in stone reason) who had lured him in just as they tried to lure Civ and Gyu.

He is guilty by association. That's what the evidence point towards and I can't say this over again.

So that's why we decided to eject him on the 10th, that's it. Still, if he can produce a valid and convincing reason for endorsing the "infiltrators" that shows his innocence, whether it be before or after his ejection, then I don't why we can't review his case and welcome him back into the region.

The rights of nations says they can endorse who they want.

Mugwop wrote:3 Things.

1. I know for a fact that [nation=short]civilisunio[/nation] at that time was going around asking for endorsements. Civ is a native of ours, why didn't [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation] endorse him? Why did he only endorse the puppet squad?

2. I might be wrong here, but I don't recall any member of the clown squad publicly asking for endorsements. Even though were extremely obvious, they tried to do things "hush hush" by limiting such solicitations to telegram. And that's how I believe they contacted [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation]. They told him to endorse their embarrassingly failed attempt, with promise of some postion of power in their new goverment. This is the same thing they tried with Civ and Gyu, but it appears that Grego fell for it.

3. When all is said and done, the decision to eject him can easily be undone, before or after the fact, should he come forth with a reasonable explanation. This is the most important point. Unlike the election dates I mentioned earlier, [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation]'s verdict is not set in stone.

The telegrammed me to endorse them and I did, gonna eject me too?

Alistia

Well, imma just stay over here until all this debate is over.

Malcholm

The first Judiciary Reform poll is up, GO VOTE!

Chingis wrote:All of that is nice and all but I still fail to see any specific example of a set in stone reason to call him guilty. Regardless of the psychological deductions you may come to, nothing he did was illegal.

Teurs wrote:The rights of nations says they can endorse who they want.

The telegrammed me to endorse them and I did, gonna eject me too?

guys i dont know if you saw my previous post but for reference i will quote it here for you

Parakka Northland wrote:Ok guys I think the main question that needs to be answered is:- Did he endorse these people knowing what they were planning or was he forced somehow to do so? Now once those questions are answered it will fundamentally effect the case. Why you ask? Well if he knew about the cope and chose to endorse them then he will be guilty of raiding (or trying to) his own region, thus he broke our laws, by placing the region in peril. If he knew but was forced to endorse them then he would likely be found innocent. If he didn't know then he would be found innocent. In terms of the latter points that would be because as everyone has rightly said you can endorse anyone in the region if you wish. Also if your forced to do something like this, then there has to be a real reason so that could mean your innocent.

You are both correct you can endorse whoever you want, but you cannot endorse raiders who will raid your region which is what they tried to do in the form of the coup. Hence why we need to establish the following:-

1 - If he knew what they were planning

2 - If he did, did he back them willingly or not

3 - If he backed them due to intimidation or blackmail, why and was it a valid reason

Now i agree with [nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] in regards to he only endorsed them which is very suspicious given what went down. But we need those three points answered one way or the other, now if we don't here from him that is not our fault and it doesn't prove his innocence on the matter. Yes you can argue it doesn't prove his guilt either but again, if your innocent why not try and prove it and why ignore a such a request to do so?

I voted for 3 justices, even if it means I likely won't be elected this term.

We needed to do something for sure about the size of the government, and this is a good start!

Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Parakka Northland wrote:guys i dont know if you saw my previous post but for reference i will quote it here for you

You are both correct you can endorse whoever you want, but you cannot endorse raiders who will raid your region which is what they tried to do in the form of the coup. Hence why we need to establish the following:-

1 - If he knew what they were planning

2 - If he did, did he back them willingly or not

3 - If he backed them due to intimidation or blackmail, why and was it a valid reason

Now i agree with [nation=short]Mugwop[/nation] in regards to he only endorsed them which is very suspicious given what went down. But we need those three points answered one way or the other, now if we don't here from him that is not our fault and it doesn't prove his innocence on the matter. Yes you can argue it doesn't prove his guilt either but again, if your innocent why not try and prove it and why ignore a such a request to do so?

Let me add that it wasn't an easy decision. Not in the slightest. If anyone knows me here, they would know that I will champion a person's right at any moment. And I know that the evidence we have is not the utmost undeniable evidence, trust me I am fully aware of this, but they are all the evidence that we have, and they point towards the plaintiff willingly acting out and being guilty by association.

However, because I very much understand [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Teurs[/nation] frustration, and because I understand the nature of our evidence, I reiterate: The verdict does not have to be permanent in the slightest. It can be easily undone should the plaintiff submit relevant evidence or statements that give a reasonable and convincing explanation of what he has done.

Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Parakka Northland wrote:guys i dont know if you saw my previous post but for reference i will quote it here for you

You are both correct you can endorse whoever you want, but you cannot endorse raiders who will raid your region which is what they tried to do in the form of the coup. Hence why we need to establish the following:-

1 - If he knew what they were planning

2 - If he did, did he back them willingly or not

3 - If he backed them due to intimidation or blackmail, why and was it a valid reason

Actually, the rights of nations or any other tmc document says nothing about not being allowed to endorse 'raiders'.

Kinda sad the judiciary hasn't even read the rights of nations.

"

'1. Nations will be free to endorse or to withhold their endorsement from any nation they choose for any reason.'

FOR ANY REASON!

So, even if greg did support a coup, which i highly doubt, his rights are still protected.

'9. The nations of The Mystical Council shall retain the right to protest their regional government. If deemed absolutely necessary and all other options have been exhausted, the nations shall also retain the collective right and responsibility to overthrow an oppressive regional government.'

"

Dont make that happen please ^

Mugwop wrote:Let me add that it wasn't an easy decision. Not in the slightest. If anyone knows me here, they would know that I will champion a person's right at any moment. And I know that the evidence we have is not the utmost undeniable evidence, trust me I am fully aware of this, but they are all the evidence that we have, and they point towards the plaintiff willingly acting out and being guilty by association.

However, because I very much understand [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] and [nation=short]Teurs[/nation] frustration, and because I understand the nature of our evidence, I reiterate: The verdict does not have to be permanent in the slightest. It can be easily undone should the plaintiff submit relevant evidence or statements that give a reasonable and convincing explanation of what he has done.

All i know is that their is 0 evidence, and the fabricated evidence, greg endorsing someone who sent out tgs asking for it, is legal.

Forestavia, Malcholm

I'm with Alistia on this one. The rights of nations exist for a reason. I fear that this situation could set the stage for an unofficial "endorsement cap" because someone associated with the "wrong people".

Alistia, Malcholm

New Bacon wrote:I will not be active for the rest of the week. I will be on discord to discuss any issues however.

Just FYI, my endorsement is available for The Battle Guard (or ANTICOM) if you need help anywhere.

New Bacon, Malcholm

Forestavia wrote:Just FYI, my endorsement is available for The Battle Guard (or ANTICOM) if you need help anywhere.

This is like the first time you've had a free WA membership in the past 6 months :0

Forestavia, New Bacon

I don't think Gregorstan should be ejected until he is online and able to state what he knew about the coup

Forestavia, New Bacon

Malcholm wrote:This is like the first time you've had a free WA membership in the past 6 months :0

Now that I've fully pulled out of TUDB/ORCA my WA is going to be more available.

Malcholm

As far as I can see unless you can prove that he's DEFINITELY GUILTY he should be treated as innocent. He doesn't have to prove anything. It's you who needs to either prove he knowingly tried to coup the region, or else drop the car.

Ugh sorry case*

Alistia wrote:Actually, the rights of nations or any other tmc document says nothing about not being allowed to endorse 'raiders'.

Kinda sad the judiciary hasn't even read the rights of nations.

"

'1. Nations will be free to endorse or to withhold their endorsement from any nation they choose for any reason.'

FOR ANY REASON!

So, even if greg did support a coup, which i highly doubt, his rights are still protected.

'9. The nations of The Mystical Council shall retain the right to protest their regional government. If deemed absolutely necessary and all other options have been exhausted, the nations shall also retain the collective right and responsibility to overthrow an oppressive regional government.'

"

Dont make that happen please ^

All i know is that their is 0 evidence, and the fabricated evidence, greg endorsing someone who sent out tgs asking for it, is legal.

Well I will simply say that the "0 evidence" claim is absolutely wrong, and I will not be repeating the found evidence for the 10th time. And as I said before, I admit they are not the best kind of evidence, but they are all what we have to act upon.

However, [nation=short]Alistia[/nation] does bring up a valid point, I cannot deny this. It's a loophole, but it is part of our laws.

"1. Nations will be free to endorse or to withhold their endorsement from any nation they choose for any reason."

Unlike all the other nations that have been ejected, [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation] is a native of our region who enjoys the benefits The Basic Rights of Nations. And based on the first amendment, a native of our region does technically have right to endorse a raider group that comes to our region.

Based on this I will do the following:

A) I, as 1/3 of the current Judicial Branch which is composed of me, [nation=short]parakka_northland[/nation], and gyuamno, retract my decision to eject [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation]. That being said, I firmly believe that given what is known, @gregorsta had deliberately associated himself the puppet squad.

B) I will also move forward to tabulate a discussion to close the aforementioned loophole, such that while native residents have the right to endorse any other native of our region, or a non native, they should not be allowed to betray our region by endorsing an outside entity that means our region harm. In other words: supporting coups would be legal, but only if it's orchestrated by and involves native members of our region. Meanwhile it would be illegal to supports raids and coups that originate from outside the region, such as the one we recently had.

Forestavia, Alistia, New Bacon, Malcholm

The Mystical Council v. Gregorstan has arrived at a majority decision after three days of deliberation.

The opinion of the Court can be read here: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=gyuamno/detail=factbook/id=752369

If any Justice wants to add a concurring or dissenting opinion, telegram it to me and it will be added to the entry.

New Bacon, Malcholm

Alistia wrote:Actually, the rights of nations or any other tmc document says nothing about not being allowed to endorse 'raiders'.

Kinda sad the judiciary hasn't even read the rights of nations.

"

'1. Nations will be free to endorse or to withhold their endorsement from any nation they choose for any reason.'

FOR ANY REASON!

So, even if greg did support a coup, which i highly doubt, his rights are still protected.

'9. The nations of The Mystical Council shall retain the right to protest their regional government. If deemed absolutely necessary and all other options have been exhausted, the nations shall also retain the collective right and responsibility to overthrow an oppressive regional government.'

"

Dont make that happen please ^

All i know is that their is 0 evidence, and the fabricated evidence, greg endorsing someone who sent out tgs asking for it, is legal.

It's sad that you think I haven't read it, and to quote from it

3) Nations will be free to raid and to defend as they see fit unless the region is put at risk or if the regional government is attacked

So let's see he [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation] chose to endorse members of a group of people we have all come to know as the puppet squad, we do not know if he knew they were raiders or not or if he was forced to support them or not. (See previous post to why that's important). So if indeed he did know they were raiders then decided to endorse them anyway knowing their plan, then he was raiding his own region, or to quote "... regional government is attacked" which in this situation was the case.

THIS IS WHY HE must answer my previous questions because it will determine whether or not he was actually guilty of knowing that they planned to topple our government.

Now onto the next item that is unrelated to the case

9. The nations of The Mystical Council shall retain the right to protest their regional government. If deemed absolutely necessary and all other options have been exhausted, the nations shall also retain the collective right and responsibility to overthrow an oppressive regional government.

The Judicial branch is not the government, that would be the ministry. As has been pointed out a number of times in one form or anouther. So let me ask you a question if the judicial branch rules that he should be ejected from the region are you going to then seek to bring down both the government and the judicial branch because you don't like the out come? Because to me it seems you are acting like a little oppressive; in that we either do it your way or it's the high way. That's certainly want seems to be coming across to me.

Forestavia

Nice dispatch [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] but when did we actually take a formal vote on it and actually debate the issues at hand and assess the evidence? So fair I've had more discussion from people who are not part of the judicial branch than people who are.

Gyuamno, New Bacon, Malcholm

Parakka Northland wrote:Nice dispatch [nation=short]Gyuamno[/nation] but when did we actually take a formal vote on it and actually debate the issues at hand and assess the evidence? So fair I've had more discussion from people who are not part of the judicial branch than people who are.

Voted today in the Judicial Hall on Discord. I am aware of timezone differences, but we must move forward.

The evidence is literally a list of names. Endorsing doesn't show or prove knowledge of the attempted raid, but rather exercising one's right. I do agree we need to find an alternate place to discuss but you and Mugwop now have access to Lunaris on Discord which is a judge-only area. This should fix any undue influence from others in our discussions. If you disagree with the decision write a dissenting opinion and I will gladly include it.

Thanks for liking the dispatch!

Gyuamno wrote:Voted today in the Judicial Hall on Discord. I am aware of timezone differences, but we must move forward.

The evidence is literally a list of names. Endorsing doesn't show or prove knowledge of the attempted raid, but rather exercising one's right. I do agree we need to find an alternate place to discuss but you and Mugwop now have access to Lunaris on Discord which is a judge-only area. This should fix any undue influence from others in our discussions. If you disagree with the decision write a dissenting opinion and I will gladly include it.

Thanks for liking the dispatch!

But late getting access for a channel when the case is already over don't you think? And I'm aware now of the conversation on the judicial hall. I won't bother it's a writing a dissenting opinion as my arguments haven't been listened to so far in regards to why we need to know if he knew what they were up to or not. So I won't wast further time on the issue when it will be simply disregarded.

Actually you can add that as my dissenting opinion statement if you wish

New Bacon, Malcholm

Parakka Northland wrote:It's sad that you think I haven't read it, and to quote from it

3) Nations will be free to raid and to defend as they see fit unless the region is put at risk or if the regional government is attacked

So let's see he [nation=short]gregorstan[/nation] chose to endorse members of a group of people we have all come to know as the puppet squad, we do not know if he knew they were raiders or not or if he was forced to support them or not. (See previous post to why that's important). So if indeed he did know they were raiders then decided to endorse them anyway knowing their plan, then he was raiding his own region, or to quote "... regional government is attacked" which in this situation was the case.

THIS IS WHY HE must answer my previous questions because it will determine whether or not he was actually guilty of knowing that they planned to topple our government.

Now onto the next item that is unrelated to the case

9. The nations of The Mystical Council shall retain the right to protest their regional government. If deemed absolutely necessary and all other options have been exhausted, the nations shall also retain the collective right and responsibility to overthrow an oppressive regional government.

The Judicial branch is not the government, that would be the ministry. As has been pointed out a number of times in one form or anouther. So let me ask you a question if the judicial branch rules that he should be ejected from the region are you going to then seek to bring down both the government and the judicial branch because you don't like the out come? Because to me it seems you are acting like a little oppressive; in that we either do it your way or it's the high way. That's certainly want seems to be coming across to me.

Now Parakka's swaying my opinion with section 3. Ahhhhhhh! Loopholes! Now I remember why I gave up on writing a constitution.

New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Forestavia wrote:Now Parakka's swaying my opinion with section 3. Ahhhhhhh! Loopholes! Now I remember why I gave up on writing a constitution.

1 and 3 can definitely contradict each other, and it's because of this loophole contradiction that I changed my mind. We can't hold someone accountable to our faulty laws; that's why these segments must be changed.

Gyuamno, Forestavia, New Bacon, Malcholm, Truxol, Parakka Northland

Mugwop wrote:1 and 3 can definitely contradict each other, and it's because of this loophole contradiction that I changed my mind. We can't hold someone accountable to our faulty laws; that's why these segments must be changed.

I agree.

New Bacon, Malcholm, Parakka Northland

Forestavia wrote:Now Parakka's swaying my opinion with section 3. Ahhhhhhh! Loopholes! Now I remember why I gave up on writing a constitution.

My entire point about the whole thing rests on if he knew about it and then chose voluntary to support them. If he didn't know about then he is innocent. If he knew but was forced to support them, then innocent. If he knew about then choose to support them then he is guilty

Mugwop wrote:1 and 3 can definitely contradict each other, and it's because of this loophole contradiction that I changed my mind. We can't hold someone accountable to our faulty laws; that's why these segments must be changed.

But we still could have waited to get a response from him first

New Bacon

Forestavia wrote:Besides being involved with some stuff in my life, your point is a good one and is an additional reason why the majority of my NS time is spent in Parakka's region. It's simply more fun. Although, I do get a chuckle out of the number of scandals we have in this region. But I think we should institute a soft merge with Solar Alliance down the road. Or even an RP alliance type of deal (in case people get scared when they hear the word "merge"). That's my opinion. We've got embassies so we wouldn't have to move. We could still have our own constitution, government, and whatnot. Maybe we could even get dual citizenship.

That's something to consider look at when everyone gets a quite moment without some regional drams going on

Forestavia

Parakka Northland wrote:But we still could have waited to get a response from him first

Assume he comes out and says "yep, I knew all about the coup and I willingly endorsed them to take out our regional goverment"

What next? That, because of the loophole, can still be considered a legal action.

New Bacon

Mugwop wrote:Assume he comes out and says "yep, I knew all about the coup and I willingly endorsed them to take out our regional goverment"

What next? That, because of the loophole, can still be considered a legal action.

Then he would follow those other nations who were ejected

Right I have been up for about 20 odd hours, so I'm off to bed. Night all

Malcholm

Parakka Northland wrote:That's something to consider look at when everyone gets a quite moment without some regional drams going on

Like Rondaland said, scandals are the lifeblood of TMC. Lol!

Gyuamno, Alistia, Parakka Northland

[nation=short]new_bacon[/nation]

add something about double jeopardy in constitution.

New Bacon, Civilisunio

Alistia wrote:[nation=short]new_bacon[/nation]

add something about double jeopardy in constitution.

Lol. You haven't even been tried 1.

Parakka Northland wrote:Then he would follow those other nations who were ejected

Right I have been up for about 20 odd hours, so I'm off to bed. Night all

But there's the loophole. All the other nations that got ejected, weren't natives of our region, so they cannot exercise any right from The Basic Rights of Nations, including any loopholes.

Mugwop wrote:But there's the loophole. All the other nations that got ejected, weren't natives of our region, so they cannot exercise any right from The Basic Rights of Nations, including any loopholes.

Define natives? Define citizens? Define Foreign nationals? This region doesn't have a citizen ship policy to my understanding. I mean if we do have a citizen policy that is something like your implying, then I can't be classed as a native, as I originally started out in The Union and have my main in Solar Alliance thus I'm not a native to the region and probably should be tried for serving on the Lunar Council before the revolution and as Delegate

Parakka Northland wrote:Define natives? Define citizens? Define Foreign nationals? This region doesn't have a citizen ship policy to my understanding. I mean if we do have a citizen policy that is something like your implying, then I can't be classed as a native, as I originally started out in The Union and have my main in Solar Alliance thus I'm not a native to the region and probably should be tried for serving on the Lunar Council before the revolution and as Delegate

How about we do something like this:

A person can be a citizen if they meet the following criteria:

1. Have been in the region for a certain amount of days (to be determined)

2. The Lunar Council or Government has given them Citizenship Rights (If the council/government deems the nation worthy of citizenship then they may be a citizen)

Gyuamno, Civilisunio

Barishmacht wrote:How about we do something like this:

A person can be a citizen if they meet the following criteria:

1. Have been in the region for a certain amount of days (to be determined)

2. The Lunar Council or Government has given them Citizenship Rights (If the council/government deems the nation worthy of citizenship then they may be a citizen)

That's already defined in the constitution in another form.:p

Barishmacht wrote:How about we do something like this:

A person can be a citizen if they meet the following criteria:

1. Have been in the region for a certain amount of days (to be determined)

2. The Lunar Council or Government has given them Citizenship Rights (If the council/government deems the nation worthy of citizenship then they may be a citizen)

That's something to be considered perhaps but it would require a list being made and kept up to date.

Civilisunio wrote:That's already defined in the constitution in another form.:p

We don't have a constitution at present.

Again guys in terms of THIS most recent issue we don't have any rules on natives

Post by Nucerea In Exile suppressed by Malcholm.

Nucerea In Exile

kek

Civilisunio wrote:That's already defined in the constitution in another form.:p

Speaking of which, I made a whole comment list about it. Outlining every section that I found a potential loophole or problem with the document.

Malcholm, Truxol, Civilisunio

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=79375

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