Post Archive
Region: The Confederacy of Free Nations
It will be pre-empted: common sense by Mexicans can simply bypass the wall and Trump will have to face the fact that he just wasted millions of taxpayers' money on a solution that barely even worked
Yeah because the right wing aren't elitist are they?
If you actually think that, then you are a clear-cut partisan hack who cares more about their political tribe than actually helping working people. And guess what, hackery does not appeal to working people.
Not really: foreign intervention has also been common and what could be considered leftist Presidents like Teddy were influenced by historical trends in that era (foreign interventions and supporting eugenics against Mexicans) and were just as harmful
I would like to think he'll be his own downfall but he wont. The ones who voted for him will go back to the polls in four years time, with their lives not improved or made worse off, and still vote for him because of his rhetoric. Sympathy from me = zero.
And war won't happen with China because China doesn't want that at all. To put it simply, while quantity has a quality all it's own, war between massive group and smaller -more developed- group ends very poorly for the larger group historically.
Of course, you'll have to be more specific with threatening?
Absolutely correct there, but to be fair there's also an active push back on higher spending in a lot of countries, Germany, France and Britain being obvious ones while Poland tries it's damnedest. So ultimately this isn't the worst route that could have been taken either, IMO even if it isn't the best one.
The best route starts in 2012 though, not 2016 >.>
And Clinton brought in NAFTA, and we almost got into the TPP under Obama. Obama expanded surveillance and his tenure is considered one of the most untransparent. Also, ignoring the economic concerns of an entire population of America is pretty bad. Tell me again how the American "left" haven't done anything to hurt Americans?
Kalaron
You literally just said that democracy is a bad form of government. Stop blaming everything on the right and look in the mirror.
But racist orange imbeciles do apparently.
I never said the left did nothing wrong. I am saying the right are mostly at fault.
Odds are everything will be a repeat of the 2004 and 2008 elections: the standard we have become accustomed to will continue, but eventually be replaced by a more progressive successor
Those people only make up about a third of the population. Trump's approval rating has never gone above 50 percent.
It -is- a bad form of government. Every form of government is bad. Democracy is the least bad. Voters can make terrible decisions. Look at Brexit. I voted for it. It was a terrible and stupid decision on my part. Stop fetishising democracy. Just because the majority want it doesn't make it right.
Trump, in rhetoric, strayed away from Republican orthodoxy. In rhetoric, he was not a partisan hack.
Bernie Sanders was the only guy who would have really made a difference. In America, Republicans and Democrats are two cheeks of the same arse. You will never have meaningful reform because the system is built to maintain the status quo.
If you want to win in a democracy, then you have to appeal to people. You cannot just simply ignore that because you don't like it.
He's all across the board: Democrat, Republican, Reform, he just chooses the most attractive and welcoming to his various beliefs
Kalaron, Gualimole
When Racist Orange Imbeciles are the only ones that listen to legitimate concerns of concerned voters, what does that say about the Left?
Kalaron, Gualimole
In rhetoric, he's a rambling, obnoxious moron. As far as Hitler comparisons go, Trump couldn't hold a candle to Hitler's oratory skills.
Yeah, Trump really listened and cares about the poor lol. A real man of the people.
If someone that bad can win, then what does that mean for the left?
Where exactly did he stray away? Almost every single Republican congressperson supports Trump without a second thought.
Don't get me wrong, I was a Hillary supporter from the beginning despite my views being aligned with Bernie, but he would've never won, especially as a localized candidate being thrust into the spotlight. I find it better to gradually induce change then allow a traumatic event to shape how Americans think
Kalaron
He strayed away on trade, which is what caused him to win. Republicans, in power, generally support free trade, but Trump was a protectionist.
More of a man of the people than the Democrats in 2016.
Gualimole
The polls showed Bernie having a double-digit lead over Trump. Bernie's policies are policies that most Americans support.
If those people are white, rich, and agree with him.
Nuremgard
"Grab them by the p*ssy" is something that no Republican supports, Pence especially since he actually is a Christian Republican
He didn't win. Clinton won the popular vote. Your stupid electoral college gave him the presidency.
The biggest change I'd love to see in the US would be the implementation of an NHS but that'll never happen. Americans are too brainwashed with the socialist/communist BS.
Are you a fan?
More like if those people are concerned about their jobs and one candidate just outright ignored them.
Kalaron
Or poor and concerned about your job.
No Republican is talking about that now.
Never mind the old white rich men, the ones who are really f*cking over the working class. Blame the immigrants and lefties!
Divide and rule. A classic tactic never goes out of style.
Midasia
Nah, it'll probably happen, especially since Americans are heavily discontent with high premiums and insurance rates. ACA could've had a more beneficial welcome if only it had been made clearer and not bogged down in Congress
Sulania
Trump did better than Romney with blacks and Hispanics.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/trump-did-better-blacks-hispanics-romney-12-exit-polls-n681386
No, but I at least don't sit there and stew in my loathing for the Right that I lose sight of what's actually driving people to the Right.
Kalaron
We could've had a public option by now had the Democrats actually used their supermajority to their advantage.
I can guarantee you that any president who tries to push for an NHS will be assassinated.
Oh, my. How superior you are.
Still, ACA does have majority support since AHCA proved to be an absolute sh*tstorm and failed to appeal to the common Amercan
Gualimole
That where the problem is. Republicans in congress consistently make the average American's life worse.
Only if it actually affects the assassin
Yup.
Yet the average American seems to love voting for those who make their lives worse.
It's the bane of the working class. We do so love to vote against our own interests.
Midasia
Don't forget that Congressional and Senate Democrats supported the Bank Lobbyist Act too. Again, you're just being a partisan hack right now.
Apologies for the glib comment earlier about your mate's family. It was out of line. I still cant fathom the mindset which says "yup, this Trump guy's got my best interests at heart" though.
Despite that, it's still a preferable option to a multi-party Congress
“People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be until they have learnt to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises.”
-Vladimir Lenin
Nuremgard
Why?
It's fine: trust me, I still have to remind myself why, but it's him and his family's decisions as adults and voters, so they also know the consequences of their vote
Nuremgard
I am not the only person being partisan at the moment. I know democrats have done terrible stuff on the past. I just happen to like them exponentially more than Republicans.
If thinking other people can be just as rational as me, but rather have different situations that makes them lean different ways, and that these people can be won over makes me superior, then I guess so.
Kalaron
Class is our biggest and strongest divider. I just wish the bloody working class would see that instead of listening to the BS of "it's the immigrant/lefty's fault."
Midasia
The votes would be split and more radicalized factions on all sides of the spectrum can benefit from the change
Too bad the American left has completely betrayed labor.
Yup. It's a free country. I've often said the fundamental flaw with democracy is that other people get a vote to. Everyone is their own prime minister/president and thinks they've got it all worked out.
Too bad indeed.
Gualimole
Look who's being partisan now, hmm.
But a multi-party system would give a voice to political minorities and allow for more debate within our political system, enhancing our democracy.
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?t=446812&f=16&view=unread#unread
What a relevant Forum Topic to pop up in my sidebar for this.
You know, you benefit from that too?
The problem with that whole "Plato and the Village Idiot" thing is that it's totally corruptible.
How am I being partisan?
It's not just the politicians. It's the media and general culture. Corbyn over here has policies that would genuinely make the lives of working people better but many of them insist on voting Conservative because they believe he's a Marxist-Stalinist-Leninist who will turn the UK into Venezuela if he gains power.
How do you combat that kind of stupidity?
Midasia
You keep blaming the left for everything.
As I said, I am also capable of making stupid voting decisions, namely Brexit.
To get a measure favorable to one side of the spectrum to pass, you would need to court the individual parties to gather support, and both Republicans and Democrats must be subjected to it while maintaining amicable relations with the breakaways in the event of midterms and general elections, otherwise one side can dominate the other
Side note: One of the elections seen in this story (1980s) had an example of one side failing to unify with their party and allowed an unpopular President to continue serving
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/fear-loathing-and-gumbo-on-the-campaign-trail-72.150154/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/fear-loathing-and-gumbo-on-the-campaign-trail-72.150154/
With your own propaganda, of course. The left needs to once more gain influence over the media and the general culture to be victorious electorally and politically.
Well that's not going to bloody happen anytime soon unless there is an actual proletariat revolution.
Midasia
The left should take advantage of new media. Instead of taking advantage of it, it has largely ignored it, allowing for the far-right to take hold.
No, as in, the problem with that is that all beliefs can be sidelined by that argument?
"I believe that Scotland should be independent" is dangerously close to being "Village Idiot" in some people's eyes, going by your standard. Or literally any statement that doesn't agree with "X" person. People can make honest mistakes, but you have to be very, very careful not to just label other beliefs as "mistakes"
Scotland has a healthy left wing/pro indy new media scene.
Gualimole, Midasia
Isn't that politics in a nutshell? We all believe the other side is wrong and try to convince people to join our side.
"It is not the triumph of the right, but catastrophic failure of the left." - Stephen Fry on the rise of Nativism in Britain
And that's ultimately the fault of our first past the post voting system, which allows for vote splitting. I wouldn't support a multi-party system without reforms to the way in which people vote.
Nuremgard
Sure, but there's a difference between "trying to change someones opinion" and saying "It's fundamentally a downside of democracy that democracy has this discourse inside of it."
The right are very good at grudgingly uniting to stay in or gain power. The left love to fight with each other.
But when you hear some people talk, it makes you think, "wow, this person has a vote. That's scary."
Maybe that's because there is no unified left. Nationalists and conservatives have more in common than social democrats/social liberals and liberal socialists.
And I'm certain when other people hear me talk, they sometimes think "wow, this person has a vote. That's scary."
You can't please everyone, so count on the upside of most people at least trying to be reasonable, don't ostracize anyone, and try to win.
I often hear the gripe, "the left needs to stop obsessing over identity politics and focus on making the lives of the working class better."
I have 2 objections to this statement.
1 - The right is f*cking obsessed with identity politics. It's all about the poor straight white man and how he is oh so oppressed by the evil leftists/gays/feminists/blacks/insert blameworthy group here. Yet the right never seems to be called out for its identity politics.
2 - Focusing on the working class IS identity politics. It's about making the lives of a certain group of people, identified by their socioeconomic status, better. For the love of God, the Labour Party in Britain was born out of identity politics.
To me, the whole "drop identity politics" gripe just sounds like "can the feminists, gays and racial minorities please shut up?"
Frankly, my frustrations with politics has likely had a direct association with my interests becoming more geared towards my relationship, my religion, and hobbies.
Right-wing identity politics works because it appeals to majorities while left-wing identity politics appeals to minorities. Also, when people are talking about identity politics, they are talking about politics pertaining to social issues, not economic issues. The definition of identity politics that you are using isn't the definition that just about everyone else uses. And finally, very few people want to abandon identity politics altogether. Instead, those to the left of social liberals and advocates of third-way politics want to focus more on economic issues while also taking into account social issues.
How?
Well to me, it sounds like many people who say they want the left to go back to its roots of improving the economic lives of the poor to abandon social issues altogether. Well as a gay man, I'm not entirely comfortable with that notion.
Midasia
Simply put, politics frustrates me and as of right now I have very little to do about it, and angry rantings on the internet are not my standard of a good time.
Gualimole
I don't think most people are saying that.
The right will always win because "the blacks and browns are to blame" is much more appealing than "the old rich dudes who own the corporations are to blame." That, apparently, falls under "class warfare" and "the politics of envy."
Midasia
You ultimately have the media to blame for that. Ultimately, the left needs an adequate media base, which it currently doesn't have.
Nuremgard
Yup. So we're f*cked.
<3
Kal's hobbies include long walks on the beech, star gazing and ogling at cute tanks and aircraft. Then correcting people who are wrong about what those things mean :>
No. The left just needs to build a media base by taking advantage of new media. The far-right wouldn't be where it is today without new media. If they can have some successes through media, then why is the left supposedly f#cked?
Because like I said, racism and blaming the other is always more appealing than looking closer to home.
Midasia
And it's more appealing because of the right's media apparatus. Anyway, I have to go now.
Cheery bye.
ghey
Kalaron
I wish I could slash my tax rate back down to the low rates without messing up my entire government budget and poor's income.
Bearlong
This is me, all the time.
Nuremgard
I look at my 98% tax rate and want to weep.
Christ
Nuremgard
I sh!t you not, mate. I cut my entire International Aid budget and taxes didn't even fvcking change. Like, I know I'm incompetent, but still!
Nuremgard
yes
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Written by Refuge Isle.