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Region: The Confederacy of Free Nations

History

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/16/introducing-tempest-the-uks-next-gen-fighter/

https://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BAE-Replica1.jpg

Tmw you need a model for a new and rad stealth jet so you literally rip one off the pylons and give it some paint and now it's literally the greatest.

No, but really, this is either going to be a 4th Generation jet or -at best- 4+ like most. Or it gets outright canceled. It really depend on if Britain has the political capital to "Do nothing ridiculous but still make a functional plane we can parade around as 5th Gen while the F-35 serves as out actual multi-role" or not enough to really stick with developing it at all.

Russkov Soviet

Kalaron wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/16/introducing-tempest-the-uks-next-gen-fighter/

https://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BAE-Replica1.jpg

Tmw you need a model for a new and rad stealth jet so you literally rip one off the pylons and give it some paint and now it's literally the greatest.

No, but really, this is either going to be a 4th Generation jet or -at best- 4+ like most. Or it gets outright canceled. It really depend on if Britain has the political capital to "Do nothing ridiculous but still make a functional plane we can parade around as 5th Gen while the F-35 serves as out actual multi-role" or not enough to really stick with developing it at all.

You got all that from an article but a couple of sentences long that says nothing about it of any substance?

Axeldonia, Mercunova, Gualimole

Yukona wrote:You got all that from an article but a couple of sentences long that says nothing about it of any substance?

I got it from the economics of making a fifth gen aircraft, alongside the current decay of the MIC and the number of countries who've successfully made a fifth gen.

Answer: Doesn't look good for Britain.

As it turns out, it's hard to make a fifth generation fighter jet with the engine typically taking the longest and being the most expensive part (See: F-22, F-35, SU-57, J-31) and the countries that have tried either fail (J-31, SU-57) or pay dearly for these engines in associated development costs (F-35, F-22). I guess it makes sense that the demonstrating vehicle -Replica, for instance- wouldn't factor that in since it wasn't even sized for engines in the first place though.

So, we ultimately come to a problem: Britain must now equal the US MIC, or at least beat out the Russian MIC in producing an amazing jet engine. And of course, they'll need decades for the development time, still, since they can't just pour money in which leaves them on roughly equal footing to the SU-57, decades behind and still not done. This choice stopped Japan from even trying to develop their own, back when the F-3 was an actual thought. It also serves to keep Germany from even trying, so...

Tl;Dr there's a reason people laughed when Japan said "I'll make my own!" and there's a reason people laugh here.

What's much more reasonable is to develop a 4th Gen aircraft since they have some experience with that. It's not really as much of a pie-in-the-sky idea as Britain somehow doing becoming independent from the US 5th gens in a way that countries like Germany would love to.

Kalaron wrote:I got it from the economics of making a fifth gen aircraft, alongside the current decay of the MIC and the number of countries who've successfully made a fifth gen.

Answer: Doesn't look good for Britain.

As it turns out, it's hard to make a fifth generation fighter jet with the engine typically taking the longest and being the most expensive part (See: F-22, F-35, SU-57, J-31) and the countries that have tried either fail (J-31, SU-57) or pay dearly for these engines in associated development costs (F-35, F-22). I guess it makes sense that the demonstrating vehicle -Replica, for instance- wouldn't factor that in since it wasn't even sized for engines in the first place though.

So, we ultimately come to a problem: Britain must now equal the US MIC, or at least beat out the Russian MIC in producing an amazing jet engine. And of course, they'll need decades for the development time, still, since they can't just pour money in which leaves them on roughly equal footing to the SU-57, decades behind and still not done. This choice stopped Japan from even trying to develop their own, back when the F-3 was an actual thought. It also serves to keep Germany from even trying, so...

Tl;Dr there's a reason people laughed when Japan said "I'll make my own!" and there's a reason people laugh here.

What's much more reasonable is to develop a 4th Gen aircraft since they have some experience with that. It's not really as much of a pie-in-the-sky idea as Britain somehow doing becoming independent from the US 5th gens in a way that countries like Germany would love to.

Why do you always manage to come across as condescending?

Alruniea, Axeldonia, Gualimole

Yukona wrote:Why do you always manage to come across as condescending?

It's probably for a few reasons: One is that I try to inject humor into my writing for my own sake, since it keeps me from getting too twitchy and the second reason is that I try to preempt arguments I've seen before. It's also maybe because this is an inherently stupid move by Britain that serves only as propaganda (Or as one of the NSD folks I talk to commented, was a less questionable way of giving money to the MIC to keep it around) and is thus being talked about as such. Or it could be because most of what I type is a truncated form of a much longer overall piece that I don't really care all that much for writing because almost no-one would read it, certainly not more than half-way through.

Time for a 7 hour drive home. The Cape sure is out in the middle of nowhere

Nuremgard, Mercunova, Yukona

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37075192_1815802191839349_5147704503973183488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9bc1459f6ab432f421338338825af625&oe=5BE1A0B4

Gualimole, Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37075192_1815802191839349_5147704503973183488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9bc1459f6ab432f421338338825af625&oe=5BE1A0B4

No

I don't want President Pence

Preferably, I'd rather have the Special Counsel declare that the campaign had collusion and subject to imprisonment

Gualimole

Nuremgard wrote:https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37075192_1815802191839349_5147704503973183488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9bc1459f6ab432f421338338825af625&oe=5BE1A0B4

Pls no

Hello everyone! I want to make flags for each of the five Republics of Midasia. I need your help with themes for each republic. I appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks, Midas

Russkov Soviet

Nuremgard wrote:https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37075192_1815802191839349_5147704503973183488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9bc1459f6ab432f421338338825af625&oe=5BE1A0B4

The Queen deserves better company. She fought in a war to stop fascists and her she is standing next to one.

Nuremgard

So Trump said Erdogan "does things the right way"..... Yeah, no words.....

Nuremgard, Aghrabia, Axeldonia, Mercunova

Midasia wrote:The Queen deserves better company. She fought in a war to stop fascists and her she is standing next to one.

Princes William and Charles refused to meet Trump, leaving the Queen to receive him alone. I'm a staunch republican but his treatment of her pissed even me off.

Yukona wrote:So Trump said Erdogan "does things the right way"..... Yeah, no words.....

Our friend and ally, Yuk. We have to respect him according to the Trumpists because he's the President.

Yukona, Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:Princes William and Charles refused to meet Trump, leaving the Queen to receive him alone. I'm a staunch republican but his treatment of her pissed even me off.

Our friend and ally, Yuk. We have to respect him according to the Trumpists because he's the President.

He has no respect for anyone other than his brainless minions. The Queen shouldn't have met him.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:He has no respect for anyone other than his brainless minions. The Queen shouldn't have met him.

He doesn't even have respect for his minions. He called them uneducated and they cheered him for it. He is an imbecile of the highest order. And if I was the Queen, there's no way I'd have met him. I'd have told May to stick it up her arse.

Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:Princes William and Charles refused to meet Trump, leaving the Queen to receive him alone. I'm a staunch republican but his treatment of her pissed even me off.

Our friend and ally, Yuk. We have to respect him according to the Trumpists because he's the President.

I'm glad they didn't meet him to be honest after what he said about William's mum/Charles' wife.

Nuremgard

Yukona wrote:I'm glad they didn't meet him to be honest after what he said about William's mum/Charles' wife.

Yeah that was vile. Diana was legit freaked out by Trump. He sent her flowers. And what he said about her? What a complete creep.

Yukona

Kalaron wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/farnborough/2018/07/16/introducing-tempest-the-uks-next-gen-fighter/

https://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BAE-Replica1.jpg

Tmw you need a model for a new and rad stealth jet so you literally rip one off the pylons and give it some paint and now it's literally the greatest.

No, but really, this is either going to be a 4th Generation jet or -at best- 4+ like most. Or it gets outright canceled. It really depend on if Britain has the political capital to "Do nothing ridiculous but still make a functional plane we can parade around as 5th Gen while the F-35 serves as out actual multi-role" or not enough to really stick with developing it at all.

Hmm... Ya know what? I've realized, after reading this, that I should technically brand my Il-51 as a 4th-Gen, although it is close to the levels of a 5th-Gen. Truth be told, I don't want to repeat my predecessor's Su-57 failure. Thoughts Kal?

Midasia wrote:Hello everyone! I want to make flags for each of the five Republics of Midasia. I need your help with themes for each republic. I appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks, Midas

As much as I would like to help, I won't be able to until I finish studying the republics. I'm fixing to look through your factbooks in a bit. I might be able to come up with a few things, as I've made a bit too many standards for my nation.

Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:He doesn't even have respect for his minions. He called them uneducated and they cheered him for it. He is an imbecile of the highest order. And if I was the Queen, there's no way I'd have met him. I'd have told May to stick it up her arse.

At least May isn't causing a lot of irreparable damage. I know Brexit is a thing but what Trump is doing is worse. He has called the media liars and days ago some journalists were killed after he called for them to be. Brett Kavanaugh, Trump's Supreme Court nominee and the other conservative justices could set Woman's rights back decades. In addition, Trump and other Republicans seem to love free speech, but the moment you call any one of them out on anything, they will do anything to shut you up. He has done much damage to the American people and it will take a very long time to fix the stuff he has done.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:At least May isn't causing a lot of irreparable damage. I know Brexit is a thing but what Trump is doing is worse. He has called the media liars and days ago some journalists were killed after he called for them to be. Brett Kavanaugh, Trump's Supreme Court nominee and the other conservative justices could set Woman's rights back decades. In addition, Trump and other Republicans seem to love free speech, but the moment you call any one of them out on anything, they will do anything to shut you up. He has done much damage to the American people and it will take a very long time to fix the stuff he has done.

I cant believe nobody has publicly connected Trump's words to the murder of those journalists. Everybody seems obsessed with Islamic terrorists. It seems to me the bigger threat are all the psychotic white supremacists within your borders.

Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:I cant believe nobody has publicly connected Trump's words to the murder of those journalists. Everybody seems obsessed with Islamic terrorists. It seems to me the bigger threat are all the psychotic white supremacists within your borders.

As a gay African-American progressive, it is becoming increasingly uncomfortable to live in the US while this Cheeto is leading the country. I would love to move to Canada or almost anywhere in Europe. I hope Democrats win the midterms or everyone within the US is gonna be in a world of hurt.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:As a gay African-American progressive, it is becoming increasingly uncomfortable to live in the US while this Cheeto is leading the country. I would love to move to Canada or almost anywhere in Europe. I hope Democrats win the midterms or everyone within the US is gonna be in a world of hurt.

I cant imagine what it's like to feel unsafe or unwelcome in your own country. I'm sorry you feel this way. I hope things improve soon. Although I would avoid Europe right now. Many here are turning to the populist right.

Midasia

Nuremgard wrote:He doesn't even have respect for his minions. He called them uneducated and they cheered him for it. He is an imbecile of the highest order. And if I was the Queen, there's no way I'd have met him. I'd have told May to stick it up her arse.

No, that makes his minions imbeciles. It makes him more of an evil genius.

Mercunova wrote:No, that makes his minions imbeciles. It makes him more of an evil genius.

He'd take that as a compliment. He's evil, yes but he ain't a genius.

Russkov Soviet wrote:Hmm... Ya know what? I've realized, after reading this, that I should technically brand my Il-51 as a 4th-Gen, although it is close to the levels of a 5th-Gen. Truth be told, I don't want to repeat my predecessor's Su-57 failure. Thoughts Kal?

This depends on exactly what goes into your IL-51. Mind describing it to me?

Mercunova wrote:No, that makes his minions imbeciles. It makes him more of an evil genius.

I find calling Trump an idiot to be dangerous. It passes a notion that he's not actually just following a strategy tailored to his own interests. It's simply dishonest in my opinion (and dangerous) to undershoot his intelligence even if you hate him.

Russkov Soviet

Midasia wrote:The Queen deserves better company. She fought in a war to stop fascists and her she is standing next to one.

Midasia wrote:At least May isn't causing a lot of irreparable damage. I know Brexit is a thing but what Trump is doing is worse. He has called the media liars and days ago some journalists were killed after he called for them to be. Brett Kavanaugh, Trump's Supreme Court nominee and the other conservative justices could set Woman's rights back decades. In addition, Trump and other Republicans seem to love free speech, but the moment you call any one of them out on anything, they will do anything to shut you up. He has done much damage to the American people and it will take a very long time to fix the stuff he has done.

Midasia wrote:As a gay African-American progressive, it is becoming increasingly uncomfortable to live in the US while this Cheeto is leading the country. I would love to move to Canada or almost anywhere in Europe. I hope Democrats win the midterms or everyone within the US is gonna be in a world of hurt.

He isn't a fascist, but he does have an authoritarian bent (he believes that strong-man policies done by himself personally is better than letting the government operate with compromise) and is disturbingly enamored by individuals like Putin. Additionally, if he was a fascist, he would've already gotten support from the Armed Forces and the upper echelons of the Republican Party to shut down dissent, which has not occurred (and hasn't occurred since Nixon).

Despite that, Trump isn't some cause of irreparable damage: the journalists killed are the only case I can find, unlike in Mexico where journalists are regularly killed or coerced by the cartels to keep silent on reporting atrocities. While Kavanaugh's appointment will obviously tip the Court in favor of a conservative mindset for several decades, depending on whether members of the Court like Thomas, Ginsburg, and Breyer step down after 2020/2024 (if Trump's comments that nobody can stop his re-election in 2020, which can obviously change given it's in two years and the Democrats are shaping up to develop into a more progressive body), the Court's composition will likely change (let's admit it, many people are likely to oppose a candidate like Trump after he steps down from office in the near future), or, like the Burger and Rehnquist Courts, the Court may be pragmatic in its decisions over time.

Lastly, don't get me wrong, being a gay black progressive is a dangerous thing to be in parts of the country, but I still face worse given I'm an atheist Mexican-American that's likely to vote Democrat smack-dab in one of the most conservative states in the Union. While I'm trying to not be dismissive, there's still the fact that Trump literally made targeting Mexico and its people part of the campaign to the point of currently erecting a giant wall in the southwest. While I have had comments thrown at me, it's not as bad as expected, plus I've already had to deal with Abbott and his decisions that harm the younger generations.

Side note: Don't move out, that just destabilizes the support base to remove Trump. It's best to continue fighting against the opposition at the local levels since they influence Federal politics much more than expected by the voting base.

Side note 2: Brexit is far worse given it's literally the United Kingdom turning away from European integration, which will affect relationships with the continent and especially allies like France and Portugal. Additionally, Trump's election hasn't warranted efforts to secede unlike Scotland considering a second referendum on Union, plus the fact that May is likely to be booted from office similar to Rajoy over her handling of the issue. Plus, the decision to leave has legitimized the claims of individuals and parties like Orban, the Freedom Party of Austria, Alternative for Germany, Golden Dawn, the Five Star Movement, and Law & Justice

Nuremgard, Aghrabia, Kalaron, Gualimole

Kalaron wrote:This depends on exactly what goes into your IL-51. Mind describing it to me?

I find calling Trump an idiot to be dangerous. It passes a notion that he's not actually just following a strategy tailored to his own interests. It's simply dishonest in my opinion (and dangerous) to undershoot his intelligence even if you hate him.

He's a puppet, not a shrewd politician. The reason why he's in the position he is, is because there are people with lots of power who think it'd be a good idea to have a man as unreliable as him holding the highest office in the world's most powerful nation.

Nuremgard, Gualimole

Chernarus State wrote:-snip-

Trump's rhetoric is very similar to Hitler's. If you replace Jewish people with Mexican or Hispanic it is disturbingly close. MAGA just means that Trump is giving permission for people to hate others with repercussions. As much as I would love to move, I can't. My family lives here and it would be expensive to leave. I am doing almost everything I can to stop Trump and other Republicans, I have participated in protests and actively denounce the hate in this country. So long as hate and discrimination exists I will be fighting to keep people safe.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:Trump's rhetoric is very similar to Hitler's. If you replace Jewish people with Mexican or Hispanic it is disturbingly close. MAGA just means that Trump is giving permission for people to hate others with repercussions. As much as I would love to move, I can't. My family lives here and it would be expensive to leave. I am doing almost everything I can to stop Trump and other Republicans, I have participated in protests and actively denounce the hate in this country. So long as hate and discrimination exists I will be fighting to keep people safe.

Last time I checked, Trump didn't endorse the organic theory of the state or corporatist economics.

Kalaron wrote:This depends on exactly what goes into your IL-51. Mind describing it to me?

I'm not too versed in the technical aspects of this stuff, so forgive me. Also.. Bear in mind that it is a mashup of the WW2 P-51 Mustang and the Sukhoi Su-57. I am planning on using the Mig-21 in the future for another upgrade test, but it will depend on this craft.

Crew: 1

Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)

Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)

Height: 13 ft 4½ in

Wing area: 235 sq ft (21.83 m²)

Airfoil: NAA/NACA 45-100 / NAA/NACA 45-100

Empty weight: 13,520 kg (29,806 lbs)

Loaded weight: 21,000 kg (46,297 lbs) Typical Mission weight: 26,100 kg (57,540 lbs) at full load

Max. takeoff weight: 30,000 kg (66,138 lbs)

Maximum fuel capacity: 419 US gal (349 imp gal; 1,590 l)

Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0163

Drag area: 3.80 sqft (0.35 m²)

Aspect ratio: 5.83

Powerplant: 1 x Saturn AL-41F1 for initial production / Working on a new engine (specs unknown)

*Dry Thrust: 93.1 kN / 107 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,054 lbf) each

*Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,566 lbf) each

Performance

Maximum speed:

At altitude: Mach 2 (2,140 km/h; 1,320 mph)[173][175]

Supercruise: Mach 1.6 (1,700 km/h; 1,060 mph)

Range: 3,500 km (2,175 mi; 1,890 nmi) subsonic

1,500 km (930 mi; 810 nmi) supersonic[96]

Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,000 ft)

Wing loading: 317–444 kg/m² (65–91 lb/ft²)

Thrust/weight:

AL-41F1: 1.02 (1.19 at typical mission weight)

izdeliye 30: 1.16 (1.36 at typical mission weight)

Maximum g-load: +9 g[119]

Armament

Guns: 1 × 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301 autocannon in right LEVCON root

Hardpoints: 12 hardpoints (6 × internal, 6 × external) and provisions to carry combinations of:

Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:

4 × RVV-MD

2 × R-73

Air-to-surface missiles:

4 × Kh-38ME

Anti-ship missiles:

2 × Kh-35E

Anti-radiation missiles:

4 × Kh-58UShKE

Avionics

Sh121 multifunctional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)

Byelka radar

N036-1-01: Frontal X-band active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar

N036B-1-01: Cheek X-band AESA radars for increased angular coverage

N036L-1-01: Slat L-band arrays for IFF

L402 Himalayas electronic countermeasure suite

101KS Atoll electro-optical targeting system[89]

101KS-O: Laser Directional Infrared Counter Measures

101KS-V: Infra-red search and track

101KS-U: Ultraviolet missile approach warning system

101KS-N: Targeting pod

(Data on P-51 / Su-57 pulled from Wiki as I stated earlier that this craft is a "mad scientist's mashup". The craft will undergo changes as need be, and body material is a top secret modification of the existing Sukhoi.)

Anything else you need Kal? Again... not very good at this stuff, but I try

Yukona wrote:He's a puppet, not a shrewd politician. The reason why he's in the position he is, is because there are people with lots of power who think it'd be a good idea to have a man as unreliable as him holding the highest office in the world's most powerful nation.

He's a man who managed to get himself into a position of power by cavorting with the Russian government and refraining from actually taking a stance on issues that would have been divisive to his support base. That is, by it's very definition "shrewd". It certainly isn't moral, but that isn't the debate.

The reason he's in office is that he outwitted an overconfident democratic party by building a strong republican support base alongside the Russian support he already had, ousting democrats from states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania and being a populist. The first step towards losing is to underestimate your opponent. It's certainly helped by the fact that the Russian gov wanted him in office, but to excuse that as the only reason is to be blind to the reasons the Dems lost tbh.

Gualimole wrote:Last time I checked, Trump didn't endorse the organic theory of the state or corporatist economics.

Trump has made Mexicans America's modern day scapegoat, just like Hitler made the Jews Germany's in the 1930's. Trump has singled them out and is trying to get rid of them. The next step would be putting them in camps and killing them.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:Trump has made Mexicans America's modern day scapegoat, just like Hitler made the Jews Germany's in the 1930's. Trump has singled them out and is trying to get rid of them. The next step would be putting them in camps and killing them.

Minorities have been used as scapegoats since the beginning of human civilization. It's not uniquely fascist. Also, you're delusional if you think that Mexicans are going to be rounded up to then be killed. The closest we have come to something of that nature is the Japanese internment camps, which was carried out by a Democratic administration and didn't involve the wholesale massacre of people.

Aghrabia

Midasia wrote:Trump has made Mexicans America's modern day scapegoat, just like Hitler made the Jews Germany's in the 1930's. Trump has singled them out and is trying to get rid of them. The next step would be putting them in camps and killing them.

You're not going to win against Trump with such outlandish rhetoric. It's this type of rhetoric from the left that caused Trump to win in 2016.

Midasia wrote:Trump's rhetoric is very similar to Hitler's. If you replace Jewish people with Mexican or Hispanic it is disturbingly close. MAGA just means that Trump is giving permission for people to hate others with repercussions. As much as I would love to move, I can't. My family lives here and it would be expensive to leave. I am doing almost everything I can to stop Trump and other Republicans, I have participated in protests and actively denounce the hate in this country. So long as hate and discrimination exists I will be fighting to keep people safe.

Trump's rhetoric is not comparable to Hitler as Hitler targeted beyond Jews, such as communists, the Romani, blacks, and the Russians among others: Trump, meanwhile, is targeting political and social groups like journalists, fake news, and Democrats. The Mexican part is concerning (and the whole detaining children thing is f*cked up), but Trump isn't going to turn into FDR and place Mexicans in concentration camps, especially since Border Patrol's actually been protesting over the intervention of the National Guard in securing the border.

Similarly, I doubt that a 15-year old like you can necessarily leave (this is based on assumption and from memory), but Make America Great Again is just a shallow takeover of Reagan's cry to his supporters, based on economic control and means rather than actively hating on minorities. My main concern over everything, especially with protesting, is that it distracts from local matters such as voting on state legislators (as much as they are dismissed, they are the reason the representative districts for Congress are drawn), governors, and townships. Hell, I have to contest with the fact that 3 Justices of the Texas Supreme Court are facing elections: the entire Court is partisan and is predictably wholly Republican, and are likely to be re-elected despite passing laws that limit the powers of the cities, especially concerning sanctuary status and environmental care.

Aghrabia, Kalaron, Gualimole

Midasia wrote:Trump has made Mexicans America's modern day scapegoat, just like Hitler made the Jews Germany's in the 1930's. Trump has singled them out and is trying to get rid of them. The next step would be putting them in camps and killing them.

This is the first ever time I've ever quoted Star Wars.

"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

Midasia

Gualimole wrote:Minorities have been used as scapegoats since the beginning of human civilization. It's not uniquely fascist. Also, you're delusional if you think that Mexicans are going to be rounded up to then be killed. The closest we have come to something of that nature is the Japanese internment camps, which was carried out by a Democratic administration and didn't involve the wholesale massacre of people.

I haven't been forced to carry a brown eagle like the yellow star, and Trump supporters are mocked for their paranoia

Chernarus State wrote:I haven't been forced to carry a brown eagle like the yellow star, and Trump supporters are mocked for their paranoia

If that's a reference to something, then I don't get it.

Gualimole wrote:You're not going to win against Trump with such outlandish rhetoric. It's this type of rhetoric from the left that caused Trump to win in 2016.

Stop blaming the left for the rise in rightism. Trump won because he appealed to racist arseholes who want to hate openly. The right do so love personal responsibility but when it comes to their terrible voting habits, it's "oh the mean lefty called me a name so I'm going to vote Trump, wah" It's pathetic and it's childish. The right needs to grow up and accept its own failings and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

Midasia

Gualimole wrote:If that's a reference to something, then I don't get it.

Jews carrying yellow Stars of David to denote them in public

Nuremgard wrote:Stop blaming the left for the rise in rightism. Trump won because he appealed to racist arseholes who want to hate openly. The right do so love personal responsibility but when it comes to their terrible voting habits, it's "oh the mean lefty called me a name so I'm going to vote Trump, wah" It's pathetic and it's childish. The right needs to grow up and accept its own failings and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

Those racist a$$holes would've voted for the GOP with or without Trump. Trump won by appealing to Rust Belt workers who felt dissatisfied with their job security and their overall economic situation. If the left refuses to self-introspect, then it will never succeed because it will be too far up its own a$$ to actually appeal to voters.

Aghrabia

Russkov Soviet wrote:

[spoiler]

I'm not too versed in the technical aspects of this stuff, so forgive me. Also.. Bear in mind that it is a mashup of the WW2 P-51 Mustang and the Sukhoi Su-57. I am planning on using the Mig-21 in the future for another upgrade test, but it will depend on this craft.

Crew: 1

Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)

Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)

Height: 13 ft 4½ in

Wing area: 235 sq ft (21.83 m²)

Airfoil: NAA/NACA 45-100 / NAA/NACA 45-100

Empty weight: 13,520 kg (29,806 lbs)

Loaded weight: 21,000 kg (46,297 lbs) Typical Mission weight: 26,100 kg (57,540 lbs) at full load

Max. takeoff weight: 30,000 kg (66,138 lbs)

Maximum fuel capacity: 419 US gal (349 imp gal; 1,590 l)

Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0163

Drag area: 3.80 sqft (0.35 m²)

Aspect ratio: 5.83

Powerplant: 1 x Saturn AL-41F1 for initial production / Working on a new engine (specs unknown)

*Dry Thrust: 93.1 kN / 107 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,054 lbf) each

*Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,566 lbf) each

Performance

Maximum speed:

At altitude: Mach 2 (2,140 km/h; 1,320 mph)[173][175]

Supercruise: Mach 1.6 (1,700 km/h; 1,060 mph)

Range: 3,500 km (2,175 mi; 1,890 nmi) subsonic

1,500 km (930 mi; 810 nmi) supersonic[96]

Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,000 ft)

Wing loading: 317–444 kg/m² (65–91 lb/ft²)

Thrust/weight:

AL-41F1: 1.02 (1.19 at typical mission weight)

izdeliye 30: 1.16 (1.36 at typical mission weight)

Maximum g-load: +9 g[119]

Armament

Guns: 1 × 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301 autocannon in right LEVCON root

Hardpoints: 12 hardpoints (6 × internal, 6 × external) and provisions to carry combinations of:

Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:

4 × RVV-MD

2 × R-73

Air-to-surface missiles:

4 × Kh-38ME

Anti-ship missiles:

2 × Kh-35E

Anti-radiation missiles:

4 × Kh-58UShKE

Avionics

Sh121 multifunctional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)

Byelka radar

N036-1-01: Frontal X-band active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar

N036B-1-01: Cheek X-band AESA radars for increased angular coverage

N036L-1-01: Slat L-band arrays for IFF

L402 Himalayas electronic countermeasure suite

101KS Atoll electro-optical targeting system[89]

101KS-O: Laser Directional Infrared Counter Measures

101KS-V: Infra-red search and track

101KS-U: Ultraviolet missile approach warning system

101KS-N: Targeting pod

(Data on P-51 / Su-57 pulled from Wiki as I stated earlier that this craft is a "mad scientist's mashup". The craft will undergo changes as need be, and body material is a top secret modification of the existing Sukhoi.)

Anything else you need Kal? Again... not very good at this stuff, but I try

[/spoiler]

Well, do you want the numbers to match up? Because looking at your numbers there is some really big problems.

The gun is also not going to be useful.

Nuremgard wrote:Stop blaming the left for the rise in rightism. Trump won because he appealed to racist arseholes who want to hate openly. The right do so love personal responsibility but when it comes to their terrible voting habits, it's "oh the mean lefty called me a name so I'm going to vote Trump, wah" It's pathetic and it's childish. The right needs to grow up and accept its own failings and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

Nice, what's next? "Half the Trump supporters are undesirables"?

No but really, there is blame to be placed on both sides for it, and ignoring the reasons people vote or outright maligning them all as "racist assholes" is a great way to continue to isolate them.

Russkov Soviet, Aghrabia

Chernarus State wrote:Jews carrying yellow Stars of David to denote them in public

Okay. I get it now.

Gualimole wrote:Those racist a$$holes would've voted for the GOP with or without Trump. Trump won by appealing to Rust Belt workers who felt dissatisfied with their job security and their overall economic situation. If the left refuses to self-introspect, then it will never succeed because it will be too far up its own a$$ to actually appeal to voters.

So you want the left to become like the populist right, i.e. lie and blame everyone else? If those idiots felt insecure about their jobs, maybe they should wonder who is outsourcing their jobs to foreign countries? It's arseholes like Trump and his mates.

Midasia

Gualimole wrote:Minorities have been used as scapegoats since the beginning of human civilization. It's not uniquely fascist. Also, you're delusional if you think that Mexicans are going to be rounded up to then be killed. The closest we have come to something of that nature is the Japanese internment camps, which was carried out by a Democratic administration and didn't involve the wholesale massacre of people.

We were at war with the Japanese, we aren't at war with Mexico.

Gualimole wrote:You're not going to win against Trump with such outlandish rhetoric. It's this type of rhetoric from the left that caused Trump to win in 2016.

The main reason Democrats lost is because of an unpopular candidate, the electoral college also caused a bad situation but that can be discussed later.

Chernarus State wrote:Trump's rhetoric is not comparable to Hitler as Hitler targeted beyond Jews, such as communists, the Romani, blacks, and the Russians among others: Trump, meanwhile, is targeting political and social groups like journalists, fake news, and Democrats. The Mexican part is concerning (and the whole detaining children thing is f*cked up), but Trump isn't going to turn into FDR and place Mexicans in concentration camps, especially since Border Patrol's actually been protesting over the intervention of the National Guard in securing the border.

Similarly, I doubt that a 15-year old like you can necessarily leave (this is based on assumption and from memory), but Make America Great Again is just a shallow takeover of Reagan's cry to his supporters, based on economic control and means rather than actively hating on minorities. My main concern over everything, especially with protesting, is that it distracts from local matters such as voting on state legislators (as much as they are dismissed, they are the reason the representative districts for Congress are drawn), governors, and townships. Hell, I have to contest with the fact that 3 Justices of the Texas Supreme Court are facing elections: the entire Court is partisan and is predictably wholly Republican, and are likely to be re-elected despite passing laws that limit the powers of the cities, especially concerning sanctuary status and environmental care.

It is his targeting of Mexicans and other social and political groups which makes his rhetoric comparable to Hitler's. He has targeted women, immigrants, and people he doesn't agree with. That type of targeting is exactly what Adolf Hitler did when he lead Germany into ruin in the 30's and 40's.

Nuremgard wrote:This is the first ever time I've ever quoted Star Wars.

"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

The only difference is that the Emperor is a likable character.

Nuremgard wrote:Stop blaming the left for the rise in rightism. Trump won because he appealed to racist arseholes who want to hate openly. The right do so love personal responsibility but when it comes to their terrible voting habits, it's "oh the mean lefty called me a name so I'm going to vote Trump, wah" It's pathetic and it's childish. The right needs to grow up and accept its own failings and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

He actually has a point, as much as I personally dislike him: the left failed to unite behind Hillary and let Trump win, who also appealed to those in the Rust and Coal Belts that had been steadily losing their jobs (similar to Roger & Me), along with the myriad of health concerns they have that had been ignored by local and state officials. Plus, hysteria among the left continue to blind the fact that Trump, as outlandish and short-sighted as he is, is still smarter than he appears to be and knew how to appeal to the public, what with being a former media mogul and all.

Aghrabia, Kalaron

Kalaron wrote:Well, do you want the numbers to match up? Because looking at your numbers there is some really big problems.

The gun is also not going to be useful.

Nice, what's next? "Half the Trump supporters are undesirables"?

No but really, there is blame to be placed on both sides for it, and ignoring the reasons people vote or outright maligning them all as "racist assholes" is a great way to continue to isolate them.

I'm seriously not going to pander to Trump voters' victimhood and pat them on the head. "There, there, it's alright. You're a stupid bigot because of the evil lefties, not because of your own ignorant prejudice."

Midasia

Chernarus State wrote:He actually has a point, as much as I personally dislike him: the left failed to unite behind Hillary and let Trump win, who also appealed to those in the Rust and Coal Belts that had been steadily losing their jobs (similar to Roger & Me), along with the myriad of health concerns they have that had been ignored by local and state officials. Plus, hysteria among the left continue to blind the fact that Trump, as outlandish and short-sighted as he is, is still smarter than he appears to be and knew how to appeal to the public, what with being a former media mogul and all.

The only way you're going to appeal to Trump's base is to become just like him. That isn't a strategy the left should be adopting.

Midasia

Kalaron wrote:Well, do you want the numbers to match up? Because looking at your numbers there is some really big problems.

The gun is also not going to be useful.

Any advice is good advice. Lay it on me.

Kalaron

Chernarus State wrote:He actually has a point, as much as I personally dislike him: the left failed to unite behind Hillary and let Trump win, who also appealed to those in the Rust and Coal Belts that had been steadily losing their jobs (similar to Roger & Me), along with the myriad of health concerns they have that had been ignored by local and state officials. Plus, hysteria among the left continue to blind the fact that Trump, as outlandish and short-sighted as he is, is still smarter than he appears to be and knew how to appeal to the public, what with being a former media mogul and all.

Hillary got 2.5 million more votes than Donald Trump. Trump got into the presidency through a system that should have been done away with years ago.

Nuremgard

Midasia wrote:Hillary got 2.5 million more votes than Donald Trump. Trump got into the presidency through a system that should have been done away with years ago.

People always seem to forget this.

Midasia

Midasia wrote:We were at war with the Japanese, we aren't at war with Mexico. The main reason Democrats lost is because of an unpopular candidate, the electoral college also caused a bad situation but that can be discussed later.It is his targeting of Mexicans and other social and political groups which makes his rhetoric comparable to Hitler's. He has targeted women, immigrants, and people he doesn't agree with. That type of targeting is exactly what Adolf Hitler did when he lead Germany into ruin in the 30's and 40's.The only difference is that the Emperor is a likable character.

He has called for them to be deported or simply unable to speak out: Hitler actively called for the extermination of "lesser races," and had actual paramilitaries kill suspected opponents to his power, unlike Trump who can only rely on Army/Marine rejects with tacticool guns who don't even attack people (it's telling that many of the militia leaders actively boot out members who conducted violence against their opponents, rather than support them).

Aghrabia

Gualimole wrote:Those racist a$$holes would've voted for the GOP with or without Trump. Trump won by appealing to Rust Belt workers who felt dissatisfied with their job security and their overall economic situation. If the left refuses to self-introspect, then it will never succeed because it will be too far up its own a$$ to actually appeal to voters.

Guacamole has a point.

Au Minbo, Aghrabia

Nuremgard wrote:I'm seriously not going to pander to Trump voters' victimhood and pat them on the head. "There, there, it's alright. You're a stupid bigot because of the evil lefties, not because of your own ignorant prejudice."

You also won't win any elections. Unless maybe your opponent takes the tack of calling all people in the left-wing "Stupid pinko commies" maybe. Divisive rhetoric that makes people hate you is p-bad, Nur.

Russkov Soviet wrote:Any advice is good advice. Lay it on me.

Well, you need a stronger engine and a lot more fuel. What you have right now is an aircraft that fully loaded weighs as much as an empty F-35, and and will have a much lower range than you think. As well, you won't be able to carry as much electronics or weaponry with that tiny weight.

I'll scan the stats more in a minute.

Russkov Soviet

Midasia wrote:We were at war with the Japanese, we aren't at war with Mexico.

The main reason Democrats lost is because of an unpopular candidate, the electoral college also caused a bad situation but that can be discussed later

War does not justify putting innocent citizens in internment camps.

Also, while the main reason the Democrats lost was because of an unpopular candidate, they also lost by failing to appeal to the Rust Belt, by shaming voters, and by underestimating Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZHp4JLWjNw

Nuremgard wrote:The only way you're going to appeal to Trump's base is to become just like him. That isn't a strategy the left should be adopting.

Appeal to their pockets: like I said, many supported him only because they feared that they would lose their jobs to outsourcing or become obsolete in new markets

Midasia wrote:Hillary got 2.5 million more votes than Donald Trump. Trump got into the presidency through a system that should have been done away with years ago.

That's still a small margin of only 2.1%, plus collusion is likely why Trump carried the Electoral College vote

Kalaron, Gualimole

Kalaron wrote:You also won't win any elections. Unless maybe your opponent takes the tack of calling all people in the left-wing "Stupid pinko commies" maybe. Divisive rhetoric that makes people hate you is p-bad, Nur.

Well, you need a stronger engine and a lot more fuel. What you have right now is an aircraft that fully loaded weighs as much as an empty F-35, and and will have a much lower range than you think. As well, you won't be able to carry as much electronics or weaponry with that tiny weight.

I'll scan the stats more in a minute.

So the right insults the left and wins for it and that's fine. But when the left insults the right, it suddenly becomes this big terrible thing? I thought lefties were the snowflakes? All I hear is right wingers whining like banshees about how they're insulted and denigrated, and it hurts their ickle feeling so much they vote for cnuts like Trump?

I feel zero sympathy for these people. They deserve all they get after voting for him. If they lose their jobs or their lives become worse due to his policies, they deserve it. They voted for it. Let them live with the consequences.

Chernarus State wrote:He has called for them to be deported or simply unable to speak out: Hitler actively called for the extermination of "lesser races," and had actual paramilitaries kill suspected opponents to his power, unlike Trump who can only rely on Army/Marine rejects with tacticool guns who don't even attack people (it's telling that many of the militia leaders actively boot out members who conducted violence against their opponents, rather than support them).

Hitler started with making Germany a terrible place for Jews to live in. Trumps is starting that. It is that eerie similarity why I compare the two. Trump thinks that people who aren't white are lesser, he called places in Africa sh!thole countries and then complained about not getting people fro Norway.

Chernarus State wrote:Appeal to their pockets: like I said, many supported him only because they feared that they would lose their jobs to outsourcing or become obsolete in new markets

That's still a small margin of only 2.1%, plus collusion is likely why Trump carried the Electoral College vote

Appealing to their pockets wont be enough. They want the populism. They want the MAGA BS, they want the God-given right to treat immigrants like sh!t.

Midasia wrote:Hitler started with making Germany a terrible place for Jews to live in. Trumps is starting that. It is that eerie similarity why I compare the two. Trump thinks that people who aren't white are lesser, he called places in Africa sh!thole countries and then complained about not getting people fro Norway.

Hitler also argued that the country failed because of the Junkers and that parliamentary democracy was a terrible form of government that was not sustainable: while racialist policies were Hitler's card, he also believed in targeting the people that were better-off than the common man

Chernarus State wrote:Appeal to their pockets: like I said, many supported him only because they feared that they would lose their jobs to outsourcing or become obsolete in new markets

That's still a small margin of only 2.1%, plus collusion is likely why Trump carried the Electoral College vote

The electoral college is still flawed and should be abolished. Would you like a 7% chance of the loser winning, no. That happened because of the EC. It happened with Bush Jr. and it will continue to happen in the future.

Nuremgard wrote:Appealing to their pockets wont be enough. They want the populism. They want the MAGA BS, they want the God-given right to treat immigrants like sh!t.

Most of the Rust Belt voters that carried Trump to victory were solid blue voters before the election. There were many instances of people voting for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016. So much for racism.

Nuremgard wrote:Appealing to their pockets wont be enough. They want the populism. They want the MAGA BS, they want the God-given right to treat immigrants like sh!t.

Not really: hell, my best friend confided in me that his family voted for Trump simply because they felt that Trump could help with certain industries, not because they were paranoid nutjobs that wanted to kill me or some other sh*t like that

Midasia wrote:The electoral college is still flawed and should be abolished. Would you like a 7% chance of the loser winning, no. That happened because of the EC. It happened with Bush Jr. and it will continue to happen in the future.

I thought the College was designed to keep arseholes like Trump out of power.

Nuremgard wrote:So the right insults the left and wins for it and that's fine. But when the left insults the right, it suddenly becomes this big terrible thing? I thought lefties were the snowflakes? All I hear is right wingers whining like banshees about how they're insulted and denigrated, and it hurts their ickle feeling so much they vote for cnuts like Trump?

I feel zero sympathy for these people. They deserve all they get after voting for him. If they lose their jobs or their lives become worse due to his policies, they deserve it. They voted for it. Let them live with the consequences.

Nur, if you don't want to win an election and want to instead completely demean the people (And yes, believe it or not they happen to be people like you and me) who voted for Trump, that's fine, but it's frankly not going to win any elections to selectively ignore how people work.

I'm really not going to entertain a pointless discussion like "Why generalizing everyone on "X" side as being evil and nasty is bad" because it should be apparent, and I really don't think it'll change how you look at the situation.

Nuremgard wrote:I thought the College was designed to keep arseholes like Trump out of power.

It was designed to make it possible for a few electors to override the will of the people.

Chernarus State wrote:Hitler also argued that the country failed because of the Junkers and that parliamentary democracy was a terrible form of government that was not sustainable: while racialist policies were Hitler's card, he also believed in targeting the people that were better-off than the common man

Trump is admiring counties that have authoritarian governments, like Russia. If Trump had his way neither of us would be able to say what we are right now. He is a terrible human being.

Chernarus State wrote:Not really: hell, my best friend confided in me that his family voted for Trump simply because they felt that Trump could help with certain industries, not because they were paranoid nutjobs that wanted to kill me or some other sh*t like that

Well they were f*cking idiots then weren't they? Truth hurts, but if they legit believed Trump was going to help them, they're honest to God idiots.

Gualimole wrote:Most of the Rust Belt voters that carried Trump to victory were solid blue voters before the election. There were many instances of people voting for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016. So much for racism.

How that swing is possible I do not know.

Nuremgard wrote:I thought the College was designed to keep arseholes like Trump out of power.

Actually it is kind of the opposite. It allows the rich and powerful to undermine the democratic process.

Midasia wrote:Trump is admiring counties that have authoritarian governments, like Russia. If Trump had his way neither of us would be able to say what we are right now. He is a terrible human being.

He is being positive in his words to countries like Russia and North Korea because he wants to be diplomatic with them. His strategy likely will fail, but he isn't being so positive out of admiration.

Nuremgard wrote:I'm seriously not going to pander to Trump voters' victimhood and pat them on the head. "There, there, it's alright. You're a stupid bigot because of the evil lefties, not because of your own ignorant prejudice."

Except not all Trump voters are stupid bigots.

Many people voted for Trump purely because of other reasons beyond "muslims are bad" and "mexicans are rapists." The regular Rust Belt blue collar workers were still experiencing an economic uncertainty, even after 8 years under Obama. Instead of offering help or stating that she'll do better, Clinton instead pushes the narrative that America is already great under Obama, and barely visited the Rust Belt States, essentially making the Rust Belt States have to look elsewhere for solutions to their problems which came in the form of Trump who promised (keyword is promised) to actually do something for those who haven't improved under Obama. Instead of Clinton offering a deal to the Rust Belt states and those who are still suffering under economic uncertainty, she ultimately ignored them. This is the failure of the left in the Rust Belt. Instead, she should have made note of the needed improvements, and offered something to them. She didn't.

You also have lefties who experience rapid disenfranchisement by the Democratic Party during the primary, as was revealed during the election and after with their treatment of Bernie and Progressives in the Party. And so on.

Remember, in Wisconsin, a Rust Belt State, Trump roughly got the same number of votes that Romney got in 2012 when he lost to Obama. Enough people didn't like Clinton that they opted to stay home or vote for someone else entirely. This is a clear case of Trump not even winning the State over, but that Clinton just didn't appeal to the State enough that Trump simply won by disinterest in the opponent.

If the Democrats even want a chance in 2020, they have to learn from 2016 what they did wrong. And sitting there and saying half the voting population are bigots is not going to do that.

Aghrabia, Kalaron, Gualimole

Kalaron wrote:Nur, if you don't want to win an election and want to instead completely demean the people (And yes, believe it or not they happen to be people like you and me) who voted for Trump, that's fine, but it's frankly not going to win any elections to selectively ignore how people work.

I'm really not going to entertain a pointless discussion like "Why generalizing everyone on "X" side as being evil and nasty is bad" because it should be apparent, and I really don't think it'll change how you look at the situation.

They're people? Really? Many of them don't seem to consider various minorities as people. I don't see why they deserve that respect when they don't give it.

Nuremgard wrote:Well they were f*cking idiots then weren't they? Truth hurts, but if they legit believed Trump was going to help them, they're honest to God idiots.

You don't win by insulting and shaming voters. That's what Clinton did and she lost.

Nuremgard wrote:How that swing is possible I do not know.

The Democrats lost the Rust Belt by not advocating for their economic interests. Why is that so hard to understand?

Gualimole wrote:He is being positive in his words to countries like Russia and North Korea because he wants to be diplomatic with them. His strategy likely will fail, but he isn't being so positive out of admiration.

Apparently being diplomatic with them means endangering millions or even billions of people lives.

Midasia wrote:Apparently being diplomatic with them means endangering millions or even billions of people lives.

How? Trump's approach to foreign policy likely won't amount to much, but I don't see where you're coming from.

Sulania wrote:Except not all Trump voters are stupid bigots.

Many people voted for Trump purely because of other reasons beyond "muslims are bad" and "mexicans are rapists." The regular Rust Belt blue collar workers were still experiencing an economic uncertainty, even after 8 years under Obama. Instead of offering help or stating that she'll do better, Clinton instead pushes the narrative that America is already great under Obama, and barely visited the Rust Belt States, essentially making the Rust Belt States have to look elsewhere for solutions to their problems which came in the form of Trump who promised (keyword is promised) to actually do something for those who haven't improved under Obama. Instead of Clinton offering a deal to the Rust Belt states and those who are still suffering under economic uncertainty, she ultimately ignored them. This is the failure of the left in the Rust Belt. Instead, she should have made note of the needed improvements, and offered something to them. She didn't.

You also have lefties who experience rapid disenfranchisement by the Democratic Party during the primary, as was revealed during the election and after with their treatment of Bernie and Progressives in the Party. And so on.

Remember, in Wisconsin, a Rust Belt State, Trump roughly got the same number of votes that Romney got in 2012 when he lost to Obama. Enough people didn't like Clinton that they opted to stay home or vote for someone else entirely. This is a clear case of Trump not even winning the State over, but that Clinton just didn't appeal to the State enough that Trump simply won by disinterest in the opponent.

If the Democrats even want a chance in 2020, they have to learn from 2016 what they did wrong. And sitting there and saying half the voting population are bigots is not going to do that.

I understand the economic anxiety argument. That doesn't make them any less stupid for believing Trump.

Midasia wrote:The electoral college is still flawed and should be abolished. Would you like a 7% chance of the loser winning, no. That happened because of the EC. It happened with Bush Jr. and it will continue to happen in the future.

Don't get me wrong, the Electoral College failed in its purpose, but this is the fifth time it's happened, so it's not much of a surprise. Still, fighting at the local level helps to change it: if more Democrats were voted as Representatives in the midterms, that can change the opinions of the College especially since most members of the College vote by how the Representatives vote

Midasia wrote:Trump is admiring counties that have authoritarian governments, like Russia. If Trump had his way neither of us would be able to say

what we are right now. He is a terrible human being.

And he never will: the Armed Forces would more than likely overthrow him in a coup than let him go through with that

Nuremgard wrote:I thought the College was designed to keep arseholes like Trump out of power.

That's what the Fathers intended since they feared that the tyranny of the majority would harm the minority groups

Nuremgard wrote:Well they were f*cking idiots then weren't they? Truth hurts, but if they legit believed Trump was going to help them, they're honest to God idiots.

How that swing is possible I do not know.

For once, I feel compelled to tell you to go f*ck yourself, but I don't have enough anger to do that: they are honest folk, not idiots

Gualimole wrote:You don't win by insulting and shaming voters. That's what Clinton did and she lost.

The Democrats lost the Rust Belt by not advocating for their economic interests. Why is that so hard to understand?

She lost because of the College. She got 3 million more votes than Trump. Clearly insulting the electorate didn't affect the votes she got.

Midasia

Gualimole wrote:How? Trump's approach to foreign policy likely won't amount to much, but I don't see where you're coming from.

He has, on multiple occasions, threatened to dismantle NATO and wants Japan and South Korea to develop their own Nuclear programs.

Chernarus State wrote:Don't get me wrong, the Electoral College failed in its purpose, but this is the fifth time it's happened, so it's not much of a surprise. Still, fighting at the local level helps to change it: if more Democrats were voted as Representatives in the midterms, that can change the opinions of the College especially since most members of the College vote by how the Representatives vote

And he never will: the Armed Forces would more than likely overthrow him in a coup than let him go through with that

That's what the Fathers intended since they feared that the tyranny of the majority would harm the minority groups

For once, I feel compelled to tell you to go f*ck yourself, but I don't have enough anger to do that: they are honest folk, not idiots

Guess I touched a nerve.

Nuremgard wrote:I understand the economic anxiety argument. That doesn't make them any less stupid for believing Trump.

Again, you're not going to win by insulting and shaming voters.

Nuremgard wrote:I understand the economic anxiety argument. That doesn't make them any less stupid for believing Trump.

I can't say I may not have done the same. I know if I was under the impression that I could lose my job at any point in the near, and one candidate actually noticed my problems and offered something and the other flat out ignored me, I know which candidate I'd be more likely to support.

Aghrabia, Kalaron, Gualimole

Midasia wrote:He has, on multiple occasions, threatened to dismantle NATO and wants Japan and South Korea to develop their own Nuclear programs.

Your first claim is false. However, your second claim is true and is concerning.

Nuremgard wrote:They're people? Really? Many of them don't seem to consider various minorities as people. I don't see why they deserve that respect when they don't give it.

Like I said, my best friend voted for Trump: his family are conservative Baptists with the women wearing skirts and all of them being superstitious of magic. Just to preempt any anti-religious statements, I've been at their house and done service with them, but they aren't bigots nor do they consider folks to be below them. Hell, they didn't even mind when I told them that I became an atheist in the interim of my last visit to their house

Gualimole wrote:You don't win by insulting and shaming voters. That's what Clinton did and she lost.

The Democrats lost the Rust Belt by not advocating for their economic interests. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is what I fear the most: insulting and belittling your prospective voters is the worst thing you can do with them

Kalaron, Gualimole

Midasia wrote:Apparently being diplomatic with them means endangering millions or even billions of people lives.

Billions is a massive stretch.

Midasia wrote:He has, on multiple occasions, threatened to dismantle NATO and wants Japan and South Korea to develop their own Nuclear programs.

A few things:

1) Countries should uphold their side of the cost. This includes keeping well-stocked militaries or NATO hardly works anyway. There are serious issues with them as it stands so the threat is justified.

2) Japan and South Korea are the least problematic people to get it. This has less ramification than India getting it, or Pakistan, or Iran.

E: It's also doubtful they'll go for one.

Aghrabia

Gualimole wrote:Again, you're not going to win by insulting and shaming voters.

And how do we get them on side? By promising a return to the days before Reagan when the US was a manufacturing powerhouse? The world economy has moved on and been irreparably changed because of him and Thatcher.

Gualimole wrote:Again, you're not going to win by insulting and shaming voters.

Trump didn't win over the people. Democrats have never shamed or insulted voters. Republicans are the ones at fault here. If you look to major disasters ion the past it is because of the incompetency of the Republican party. The Great Depression, the Great Recession, the inability to help after major hurricanes, all of those are linked to the Republican party and its inability to look out for the average American.

Chernarus State wrote:Like I said, my best friend voted for Trump: his family are conservative Baptists with the women wearing skirts and all of them being superstitious of magic. Just to preempt any anti-religious statements, I've been at their house and done service with them, but they aren't bigots nor do they consider folks to be below them. Hell, they didn't even mind when I told them that I became an atheist in the interim of my last visit to their house

This is what I fear the most: insulting and belittling your prospective voters is the worst thing you can do with them

So they ignored Trump's bigotry and voted for him regardless? Despite you saying they're honest, good people?

Over the past few decades, the American left has completely betrayed labor in favor of pursuing identity politics. The latter is important, but not focusing on labor and economics will eventually come to bite you, as we saw in the 2016 election. If the Democrats want to win, then they have to go back to their labor roots instead of shaming people at New York fundraising events.

Kalaron wrote:Billions is a massive stretch.

A few things:

1) Countries should uphold their side of the cost. This includes keeping well-stocked militaries or NATO hardly works anyway. There are serious issues with them as it stands so the threat is justified.

2) Japan and South Korea are the least problematic people to get it. This has less ramification than India getting it, or Pakistan, or Iran.

E: It's also doubtful they'll go for one.

Still, it'd be best to firmly encourage NATO members to increase their spending rather than to actively tell them to pay up or no protection

Plus, yee, India, Pakistan, and/or Iran definitely do not need nuclear power, especially since relations between each of them are very heated

Kalaron wrote:Billions is a massive stretch.

A few things:

1) Countries should uphold their side of the cost. This includes keeping well-stocked militaries or NATO hardly works anyway. There are serious issues with them as it stands so the threat is justified.

2) Japan and South Korea are the least problematic people to get it. This has less ramification than India getting it, or Pakistan, or Iran.

E: It's also doubtful they'll go for one.

I don't think billions is a massive stretch. Trump has threatened China and has endangered most of Europe and the Americas. That is over 2 billion people.

Nuremgard wrote:So they ignored Trump's bigotry and voted for him regardless? Despite you saying they're honest, good people?

They knew he was a bigot and confided in me that they would vote against any measures that would benefit his statements, such as increasing taxes for the wall and other things like that

Midasia wrote:Trump didn't win over the people. Democrats have never shamed or insulted voters. Republicans are the ones at fault here. If you look to major disasters ion the past it is because of the incompetency of the Republican party. The Great Depression, the Great Recession, the inability to help after major hurricanes, all of those are linked to the Republican party and its inability to look out for the average American.

Yeah. Republican/Conservative policies actively harm the working and middle classes, making their lives objectively worse. But if you call Conservatives bad names, that makes you worse than Hitler apparently.

Vile anti-working class policies? Fine. Calling them naughty words or stupid? Beyond the pale and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Priorities need to be assessed methinks.

Midasia wrote:Democrats have never shamed or insulted voters.

> Basket of Deplorables

> Trump supporters are bigots/racist/sexist/homophobic

> "Bernie-Bros"

> "Bernie voters are radicals, they don't know how to get what they want"

> "I have a Private Opinion, and a Public Opinion."

Midasia wrote:Trump didn't win over the people. Democrats have never shamed or insulted voters. Republicans are the ones at fault here. If you look to major disasters in the past it is because of the incompetency of the Republican party. The Great Depression, the Great Recession, the inability to help after major hurricanes, all of those are linked to the Republican party and its inability to look out for the average American.

Clinton literally called Trump supporters "a basket of deplorables". The Democrats clearly have done what you say they have not done.

Midasia wrote:I don't think billions is a massive stretch. Trump has threatened China and has endangered most of Europe and the Americas. That is over 2 billion people.

China isn't gonna risk it's people, especially since most of the populace relies on imported food from the U.S. to simply survive: in the trade war, they're likely to back down, especially since the U.S. can simply re-invigorate its markets to start producing products at a cheaper rate

Chernarus State wrote:They knew he was a bigot and confided in me that they would vote against any measures that would benefit his statements, such as increasing taxes for the wall and other things like that

Too late now. He's already done that. Democracy really is the best of a bad bunch of government types. Churchill was right when he said, "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

Gualimole wrote:Clinton literally called Trump supporters "a basket of deplorables". The Democrats clearly have done what you say they have not done.

Trump does have many deplorables who support him.

Gualimole wrote:Over the past few decades, the American left has completely betrayed labor in favor of pursuing identity politics. The latter is important, but not focusing on labor and economics will eventually come to bite you, as we saw in the 2016 election. If the Democrats want to win, then they have to go back to their labor roots instead of shaming people at New York fundraising events.

The American right has always singled people out and been the main cause of everything wrong with America.

Nuremgard wrote:Yeah. Republican/Conservative policies actively harm the working and middle classes, making their lives objectively worse. But if you call Conservatives bad names, that makes you worse than Hitler apparently.

Vile anti-working class policies? Fine. Calling them naughty words or stupid? Beyond the pale and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Priorities need to be assessed methinks.

The best counter to the "populist" right is supporting labor and focusing on alleviating economic anxieties, not insulting and shaming voters. The left needs to take back populism instead of delving deeper into elitism.

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