Post Archive
Region: The Confederacy of Free Nations
Post self-deleted by Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60
Jaslandia, Percyton
Post self-deleted by Nuremgard.
You don't know what you're talking about. She didn't destroy any community - coal, ship-building and steel were already dying! And not just in Britain, but across the west! Ever heard of cheap labour? Third world manufacturing? China? Outsourcing? Please Google those terms. She led the successful transition to a service economy and since you're throwing out emotional assertions I assume you have no empirical facts behind you. Don't answer that - you can't, because in almost every measure Britain and the UK was better off than when she came in.
And I'm more of a libertarian than a conservative, but thanks anyway.
Because you can't defend them?
Except that's exactly what it is. It's a mainstay of economics - hell, Keynesian economics - that increasing taxes reduces circular flows of income, and there's mounting empirical evidence that high government spending is counterproductive, but people like you choose to ignore it. I assume it's envy, but if you want to throw out another explanation for your willful ignorance, I'm all ears.
No, I don't think I'm superior, I just think that my beliefs are motivated by factual evidence as opposed to emotion, that's all. Nothing personal kid.
Cesorion, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Did you just assume my discussion type?
United Continental States, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Alright might just stay out of this one then
Percyton
"haha thatcher what a bish, die in a hole you loser haha im i right lads!"
"Thatcher's economic policies were logical and necessary"
"bloody tories dissing our miners, how can they be so cruel??"
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Okay, let's go for balance then. Here are a list of successes and failures of Thatcher's tenure. Some of the successes could be argued as failures depending on your politics, but here's a bit of balance for once.
Successes
[spoiler]Privatisation did lead to efficiency gains for some industries. Helping lead to lower prices for telecoms, airlines and at times electricity.
Deregulation of key industries led to greater competition within industries which were formerly monopolies. This competition helped create incentives to be more efficient and cut costs.
Reduction in power of organised Labour. In the 1970s, UK industry was paralysed by strikes and industrial confrontation. During the 1980s, industrial relations improved. Though this was partly due to much higher unemployment levels.
Growth of new service sector and financial sector industries.
Inefficient firms no longer received state support, but had to be competitive and go out of business. Although it was a painful process, arguably it was necessary for long-term growth
Rise in home-ownership helped more people feel they had a stake in economy.[/spoiler]
Failures
[spoiler]The 1980s saw a return of mass unemployment levels not seen since the 1930s.
Two recessions were caused by deliberate policies. Although inflation needed controlling in 1980, arguably the government deflated the economy too much chasing money supply targets which were unreliable. The cost was unemployment and social disorder, which need not have been so deep.
Growth in north south divide and regional inequality. Unemployment particularly affected former industrial areas; the government were slow to help deal with problems of structural unemployment.
The Lawson boom was a missed opportunity. The government deliberately allowed a boom and bust which caused an unnecessary and painful recession of 1991. For all Mrs Thatchers claims to see the importance of keeping inflation low. It was ironic, the government made such a mistake in allowing an inflationary bubble in the late 1980s. Part of the reason is that they really felt they had created a supply side miracle which hadnt actually occurred.
The rise in home-ownership was good for those who could buy, but has increased wealth inequality in the UK. The supply of council homes is limited because many have been sold off.
Large rise in inequality during the 1980s.
Financial deregulation of the 1980s laid framework for credit bubble of 2000s and subsequent credit crisis. For example, privatized building societies like Northern Rock, and Bradford & Bingley pursued risky growth strategies which eventually needed government bailouts in the aftermath of the 2008 recession. Financial deregulation was good for some, but arguably created greater financial instability in the long-term.
Thatcher reduced the power of trades unions, but arguably at the cost of alienating many working class because of the fierce nature of her conflict.
Privatisation involved selling off state assets at an undervalued price. Many who could afford to buy shares, saw immediate gains. This was politically popular, but another missed opportunity to use nations resources to invest in the future.
Thatcher made little attempt to deal with environmental issues during a decade of increased concerns over global warming, pollution and environmental degradation.[/spoiler]
The poll tax was a horrendous idea. The mine closures were a long time coming and had to be done. My gripes with Thatcher are for not balancing the budget sooner and not helping the north transition away from heavy industry easier. The Argentines' claim to the islands are based purely on proximity.
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Ok, I'll give you credit for that post. Perfect government, after all, is an oxymoron. I'll go over a few.
High unemployment was an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect of the early 80s recession, in both the UK and the US. Malinvestments all across the economy, most notably state subsidies for heavy industry, were keeping employment artificially high and prevented the efficient reallocation of resources. And it took until the 90s for unemployment to get down to a low level - true.
What makes you think the government intentionally caused a bust? From what I've read it was Lawson's fault for the early 90s recession because he raised interest rates in anticipation of joining the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, which Thatcher actually opposed. Right to buy was a great thing for the poor, because it gave many working people a leg up into the middle classes and, as you said, increased rates of home ownership. Inequality is an inherently neutral statistic. It can be good, it can be bad. In developed countries it's usually good because real compensation and incomes for the poor have still increased - even if they've grown at a faster rate for the wealthy.
Deregulation did not cause the recession. The 'ownership society' policies pursued by the Bush and Blair governments, aided by their respective central banks, caused the recession. Deregulation is a convenient boogieman that begets the fact that in the decade before 2008 financial regulation increased significantly in both countries.
The unions had far too much power and literally toppled a government in the 70s. An individualist, flexible labour market has been much better for Britain in becoming more competitive.
The rest of the criticisms I will accept.
Cesorion, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
For the sake of remaining civil, the most that can be said of Thatcher is that she is a divisive figure. Some people absolutely adore her and others absolutely hate her guts.
As Tyrion said in Game of Thrones, "no ruler who ever lived had the support of all of the people."
That is also true.
The only universally liked politician I can think of is JFK, because he died before he could do anything controversial. Now every man and his dog thinks that he was really 'on their side' and has some conspiracy theory to justify it.
Nurem here makes a valid point. Debate, though, as long as it remains civil, is good.
And for the Record, I belong to the first category..
Percyton, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
JFK was no angel but you're wrong about him being universally liked. He was the first Catholic POTUS and many feared he would do the bidding of the Pope. And he wasn't very much liked by the Chicago mafia either as he was cracking down on them.
Can't we just all agree that debates about British politics are obnoxious.
Cesorion, United Continental States, Nuevo Pevvania, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
I think we know that.
Cesorion
Politics is obnoxious, as are most politicians and their voters.
If you guys want some good Debate, go in the First Embassy I established, International Debating Area. Embassy posting available. Also, a Thacherite is available, along with opposition parties.
Since you said you were Greek, who is your favourite Greek god or goddess?
Thank you for replying and being frank, I can see that this is a passionate subject for you. You seem however, to have come under the false impression that I was attacking Thatcher and everything she had done for the UK and therefore me and my family's supposed "hate" stemmed from that. Make no mistake, despite what I personally think about Thatcher, I believe she DID do a lot of good for the UK.
However, she did not do good for Scotland.
"Muh jobs" is not an especially good retort, considering when discussing Scotland's issues with Thatcher, as it was Scotland where her policies hurt the most AND resulted in the most closures of industries in Scotland. The steel industry, the car factories, shipbuilding and engineering and oversaw the demise of the communities which had built their livelihoods around them. Wilson and Heath had nothing to do with that. Her economic policy as well, didn't bring inflation under control at the time and unemployment skyrocketed. Which, guess what, hit Scotland the hardest. On top of that she guinea pigged Scotland with the poll tax, an action so widely reviled up here that modern Tories are still viewed as being toxic in Scotland. On top of that, she was also abhorrently against the devolution of power to a Scottish Parliament. She didn't want Scotland to be in control of it's own issues and went against the potential of a devolved democracy in Scotland.
My grandfather was nice, so were the other hundreds of thousands of countless people laid off due to her actions in Scotland, so I'm sorry too but me and you will always have stark differences in our opinions over Thatcher. One thing I actually do appreciate her for is that due to her Poll Tax, she rallied Scotland against the conservatives and we got our Parliament. I can definitely thank her for that.
Long live Scotland.
Nuremgard, The Empire Of Handland, Kalaron
I don't mean at the time. He won the 1960 election very narrowly. But I mean that today I'd imagine his approval ratings are very high and most people, left and right, look back fondly on him.
She should have thanked the Scots profusely since the North Sea oil paid for the benefits all those unemployed people needed. I hate her mostly because she was so anti-Scottish.
Probably. I don't know very much about him but I do find his presidency interesting.
The Scottish Parliament. One of Blair's biggest blunders. They thought it would kill Scottish nationalism stone dead.
;)
Well I went over the unemployment thing above, it's just one of those things that was unavoidable. There's a good Ron Swanson quote about a dying deer - do you continue to keep it alive as it bleeds out, or do you slice its throat and properly utilise its pelt and meat? I won't argue about the Scottish-specific issue because that's not something I know much about. I can agree that the poll tax was a dumb, disastrous idea. I must correct you on inflation though - it fell from about 17% in 1979 to about 4% in 1985. Her monetary policy was brutally effective, and probably the principle cause of the death of steel and so forth. It went back up to around 8 or 9% at the turn of the 90s but has scarcely crept above 5% since then. We can definitely thank her for incorporating Friedmanite thinking into national monetary policy.
Lex Caledonia, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
So the unemployment was tolerable? I'm guessing you nor your family were negatively affected by Reagan or Thatcher's policies.
FYI: People who lost their jobs and livelihoods do not care about all the theory and evidence behind your beliefs. They care about the fact they lost their means to make a living and were thrown to the wolves.
People's political views are coloured by their experiences in life. Try to remember that the next time you go "lol but mah job" eh?
Honestly, I believe she could have done better in Scotland. Some would argue that it's mutual incomprehension at work though between Scotland and Thatcher. Ah, I was arguing on the Scottish-specific side as I myself am Scottish along with my family. I'll give you that, inflation was reduced but it still left Scotland in a hell of a state, 1/6 of the population of Scotland was rendered unemployed, this took decades to fix. The GDP of Scotland around this time too suffered. I've got libertarian leanings myself so I do understand the appeal of what she did but what she did still hurt my country and she could have done better for it.
Christ, sorry to hear that mate. :(
Lex Caledonia, Percyton
You completely missed the point I made. I don't think you realise I'm the post pro-Falklands person in this region lol. I also fully support the closures but the way she handled post support for the mining areas was not good. My point is as much as the Argentine Junta wanted to do it as a popularity boost it also inadvertently boosted Thatcher's popularity.
A former Tory mate of mine said Scots hated Thatcher because they did not like being told what to do by an Englishwoman.
But he is an arse licking unionist so of course he would say that. Had nothing to do with the horrendous effects her policies had on Scotland. Apparently it was because she had a fanny and spoke with a posh accent.
Huhu
Jaslandia, Percyton
Can we be honest? Does anyone really give a f*ck about the Faklands or any of the sheep shaggers on it? And I don't mean give a f*ck in the Thatcherite "we must protect their right to Britishness" faux caring, I mean actually giving a f*ck.
I know I don't. But I guess I'm just not very patriotic. ;)
Hey Pengu
Jaslandia, Penguania And Antarctica, Percyton
My mistake, I misread that. Yes I agree, more could have been done.
Yukona
I remember a story my granddad told me about that period of time, he lived in Falkirk (my home town) and when he came home from being made redundant he went to the pub. It was there he met his childhood friend who had been made redundant too, they started to drink and the pub started to fill up. By midnight the pub was packed and everyone in it was a laid off worker, they started to dance. Not because they were happy but because they did so in defiance of those who rendered them redundant.
My granddad would dance with me and my mum and it became a tradition for us. We danced whenever something bad happened in defiance, we danced whenever something good happened in joy.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
You cant keep a good Scotsman down!
Friend, as you well know I was not the only one using flippant and careless language. But I digress. No, I wasn't negatively affected. My parents both immigrated to the UK in the height of the boom and probably benefited from it, but I've never really thought about politics in the mold of my persona life, so it hasn't really influenced my thinking. Either way, take that as you will. As Henry Hazlitt said, in economics we shouldn't just look at the seen consequences, but also at the unseen consequences of a given policy. I'm sure for you folks that's a hard pill to swallow. But we can play pick apart the issue all day. My point is in general her economic policies left the UK, on net, better off.
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
You must like Ruth Davidson, lol.
So if your country got attacked you wouldn't support protecting it? Alright when you go independent I'll wheel up with the British Army and just reconquer you cus really who gives a f*ck about a bunch of Nessie shaggers am I right? If you don't support the right to self determination and sovereignty you can't be a Scottish nationalist.
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
There you go. You weren't affected and your parents probably benefited, hence your views are shaped by that. Other people got laid off and felt betrayed and abandoned so felt bitter.
If you think they're somehow stupid, envious or should just get over it, that's your prerogative. Have a bit of empathy.
They can do whatever they want, mate. They can remain British until the Sun explodes or they can join the Argies. What I was saying was, does anybody actually -care?- Thatcher only cared because it boosted her popularity.
No because they attacked our country and they were invaded by a junta and they didn't want to be Argentinian.
Meh.
What I thought lol, if you're gonna value self determination then value it, not just when it sorts your narrative bud.
Magnatronia
Lol. Clearly you've never met a Scottish nationalist. We're not exactly Ruthie's biggest fans.
I actually used to like her tell the truth :L
She used to be a compassionate person who did seem like a Tory who cared, especially about Scotland, she can be attributed for the rise of the Scottish Tories in recent years.
However, lately she's lost that compassion and would throw Scotland under a bus if she could get a shot at being in the UK parliament. I do feel sorry for her though, being openly LGBT whilst her party leader makes deals with the anti-LGBT DUP. Oh lordy.
I just get irritated when Brits pretend to care about people who live thousands of miles away on tiny islands. And Thatcher's cynical exploitation of the war to boost her popularity was irritating. The general British mindset of "we own that" is irritating because it harks back to the empire.
I don't feel sorry for her. She openly courted the homophobic Orange Order. She only cares when something personally affects her. Like when she was moaning to May that having the DUP helping the government better not stop her from marrying her fancy piece.
I absolutely loathe her.
Lol but you do own that
Yukona
I understand why you would feel that way Nurem. Its only in recent years where she's done this and I don't support what shes done.
I still hope that one day she'll do a Episode VI and show her compassionate side again.
Lol, suit yourself then. It's part of my country and I'll die for it. They are British citizens and they are my compatriots. Just because it doesn't suit your narrative in this situation you suddenly don't support the people's right for self determination and sovereignty. Ironic, he could save others from death but not himself.
Magnatronia, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
British Overseas Territories are just hangovers from the imperial days. The whole lot of them could all go independent tomorrow and it would not make one iota of difference to anybody's lives on this island. Except for those who would whine that Britain is no longer the boss.
The fact that she and Dugdale are high profile gay politicians almost makes me ashamed to be gay. The fact we are represented by those two mutants makes me shudder.
I never said I don't support their right to self-determination. I just said I don't care.
You'd die for them? Lol, whatever cooks your pudding, bud.
I may be a bit biased, but what about a bit on Continental Commonwealths' transportation system or public transport options?
Speaking of Factbooks, me and the Bureau of Historical Information just put out a new one: We haven't talked about Sodor's history recently, especially its earlier history, so we decided to put out a Factbook on Sodor's early (standard gauge) railways. Here's the link if you're interested: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=percyton/detail=factbook/id=871423
It looks great, Neo (I can call you that, right?)!
That's one of the many things I hate about war: Railways are often caught up in the war and have to do wartime duties (whether it be transporting food to soldiers or transporting weapons), and since we can't really do much without our Drivers and Firemen, we basically have no choice but to do the war work and help the war effort, whether we agree with it or not. In addition, because we're so essential in delivering supplies, us and our infrastructure (stations, tracks, water towers, etc.) are frequently targeted during wars; even if we personally don't support the war, we're made to suffer for it.
Gordon: Such is life, little Percy. Such is life.
Even though that's an American cartoon, me and the other engines actually saw that one sometime in the 70s. Understandably, Bert of the Arlesdale Railway got the most enjoyment out of it, and he would refer to himself as 'the Turtle' for quite a few weeks afterwards.
Hello, Peng! How are you today?
Jaslandia, Andromitus, Penguania And Antarctica, United Continental States
Yeah but do they want independence?
Then that's why we fought for the islands. I doubt you'd like to be invaded by an English military junta
Naw, so whatever makes them smile.
Post self-deleted by Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth.
The way your country is going that's a real possibility.
Nice to see you're resorting to petty digs
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Well, it's the duty of the government to protect it's people from other nations and their expansionism/irredentism
Yukona
Hey guys! I've finished the map for the New Albion RP and I might even get them up on the NS forums this evening! If you wanna join, I urge you to PM me now!
Lex Caledonia, Yukona, Percyton
Just a bit of bantz.
But aye, I admit I was in the wrong there. I see your point about self-determination and not wanting to be invaded by a foreign power and what not.
Mind you, Thatcher was not entirely averse to juntas. She was very fond of Pinochet's.
I don't really know what I'd find scarier as a Falklander: the Argies or Thatcher sailing over waving a union jack.
Lol trying to find another reason to hate Thatcher
Especially if a good war will boost your popularity ratings.
I'm just making a joke, babe. No need to get your right wing knickers in a twist just because I'm not kissing her arse.
You mean a war where she is defending the citizens of her country?
Sure thing, Lib!
Jaslandia, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
Oh, you make it sound so noble. I'm sure her reasons for starting the war were strictly selfless and solely in the interests of the Falklanders.
Lol.
Oh trust me, up here in Scotland, we've got lots. We're thinking of fuelling our butt-hurt into a form of renewable energy :L
Nuremgard
That would last forever then.
Well there is one less reason for hating Thatcher now. She stopped breathing. :P
Neptune or Pluto. I also like Athena
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, Lex Caledonia
Very good, Percy! I like it. I always find it interesting how you manage to blend Railway Series continuity, TV series continuity, and your own continuity and reconcile them together.
Neo-Icelandic/Lib is The One.
https://images.moviepilot.com/image/upload/c_fill,h_470,q_auto:good,w_620/xzs0ssndrgzqibhaxgep.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111134171/4134793-neo+of+matrix.jpg
Percyton
Does having someone like me live on the same island as you never make you question your British nationalism, Yuk? :P
I think they're all cool except Hestia who is boring and Zeus who is a c*nt. I'd probably say my fave is Apollo.
Jaslandia
Ah. I think it's actually a bit too late to put it up today, so I'll see if I can get it going tomorrow!
Andromitus
You mean when Argentina invaded the islands?
And Galtieri did it because he wanted to divert attention from their stagnant economy
Cesorion
He was only doing what the British had been doing for centuries.
I don't give a shít what he was doing, you said Thatcher was in the war for herself when in fact she was defending the people of her country.
Yukona
So it's only okay when Britain go around invading and taking over other people's countries? But when someone else does it to them, ooh no, cant have that.
Hey Percy and Kal. I'm doing good. I'm very exhilarated. Was at the movies and saw a comedy film. Was very good and very funny.
How about you ?
Percyton
I'm doing pretty good, Peng. I'm doing my nightly mail run, and it's going pretty well! No delays or incidents so far, and the Stationmaster at Crosby even gave my crew some tea!
Penguania And Antarctica, United Continental States
I'm good, still designing the Nyx-Hemera :P
Jaslandia, Penguania And Antarctica, Percyton
When do you sleep ?
Jaslandia, Percyton
You clearly don't know the history of the Falkland Islands but lets go through the records
In 1690, an English captain named John Strong discovered the islands.
In 1764 the French established Port Louis, and in 1766 the British established Port Egmont. Historians debate on whether they knew of one another.
In 1766 the French surrendered their claim on the islands to Spain, and the colony was renamed Puerto Soledad.
In 1770 the Spanish captured Port Egmont but gave it back to the British one year later to prevent war. This is known as the Falklands Crisis.
The Spanish and British coexisted peacefully until the British left voluntarily in 1774, So Spain was the sole owner of the islands, and turned their colony into a prison camp.
In 1806 the governor decided to evacuate the islands because of the Napoleonic wars, where France and Spain were on the same side. Fishermen remained on the Islands though.
The status of the Islands was undisputed until 1820 when Colonel David Jewett, an American privateer working for the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata, informed anchored ships about Buenos Aires' 1816 claim to Spain's territories in the South Atlantic.
In 1832 the British reasserted their claim on the islands, and occupied it, and in 1840 the Falkland Islands became a crown colony.
So it is true that the history of the British Empire is bloody, but your claim that they took the islands from Argentina is not the entire truth
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, Yukona, Percyton, Cesorion
I could tell by the delayed response this would be a long message but thanks for the history lesson.
Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
It makes me want to kill myself half the time, questioning my own patriotism isn't even close.
Nuremgard, Magnatronia
;)
Funnily enough my new nation is an island one and it's flag is the Argentinian one.
Jaslandia, Percyton
So because the now English originally invaded and pushed out the original Saxon owners for the most part - they don't have a right to their country nowadays? That's all dead and buried now. Regardless of the Falklands not even being a product of invasion, history happened and we can't change it. What it also doesn't change is the right to self-governance, self-determination and sovereignty. If that holy trinity lines up, then you can't stop Britain owning somewhere, nor can you Argentina, nor can you Scotland, nor can you bloody France for all I care.
Nuremgard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glzf4lUyyRs
Genuine question: imagine history turned out in such a way that England and Scotland were still separate states today. Would you be in favour of unification?
Dunno really, it's entirely dependent on context and what's going on I think, so I don't think I can answer that question.
Nuremgard
WELL SONNY, LET ME GENTLY SEUGE THIS ONTO ANOTHER, TOTALLY UNRELATED TOPIC IN A VERY SMOOTH, NON-PUSHY WAY
JUST SO HAPPENS THAT THAT'S ALSO THE PREMISE OF MY BRAND NEW RP NEW ALBION
SIGN UP TODAY
Nuremgard, Lex Caledonia, Yukona
It depends. Sometimes I sleep in the morning if I don't have a morning train. Sometimes I'll finish early and sleep during the night and very early morning hours. And occasionally I'll just take short naps between jobs throughout the day.
Jaslandia, Penguania And Antarctica
Mind you my island nation is a tad different. The emperor on it is worshiped as a god but it does have an empire and a strong naval tradition.
Jaslandia
The only thing I got from the above conversation is that I found a new hatred for people who only stand for values when it fits their narratives, otherwise they couldn't care less.
This is my view as a citizen, not a constable. So don't get your nipples in a twist.
Clemodecralia, Penguania And Antarctica, Yukona, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth
You hate me? Yay!
No no, I'm a constable. I have to be neutral. I just happen to hate that quality that you happen to have.
I never claimed to be perfect.
I mean, I'm a Scottish nationalist and all for Scotland being independent but when it comes to Game of Thrones, I'm an ardent unionist. In the sense that I think Jon Snow ought to bend the knee and submit the North to their true queen, Daenerys.
You lost me at 'ardent unionist'.
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.