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Region: The Confederacy of Free Nations

History

Clemodecralia wrote:There were officially independent, however they definitely had Soviet "advise" and "help". Surprisingly enough, not so commonly known, is the extent of the individual Warsaw Pact countries' political independence, as the USSR certainly had influence, they also did have issues with WP countries going their own directions and doing their own things, which not always necessarily followed the USSR's desires.

I find it comparable to the current EU, where countries are officially independent, the leading ones would financially assist all others, and if the leading countries really want, they could easily force thing onto the smaller countries with economic threats or incentives, or in the USSR's case only (so far), military intervention. Though obviously the EU perhaps isn't quite at the level of the USSR yet.

Thanks for the explanation.

Cesorion wrote:I will not vote in the poll because I HATE THE WARSAW PACT!!!

NATO4ever

Jaslandia, Cesorion

Nuremgard wrote:For the record, that was me ending the argument. Simmer down. No need to get all Gestapo on us.

Calling us Gestapo for trying to keep the RMB civilized??

Jaslandia

Gets issue. Consults NS Index for possible effects. Loosens regulations as NS Index says it will increase employment. Makes decision. Employment decreases.

You lied to me, NS Index. Screw you.

Jaslandia

Nuremgard wrote:Ah, right. Thank you. Was the Warsaw Pact brought in to establish what countries would be ruled by the Allies and which would be ruled by the Soviets after the fall of the Third Reich?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact

Nuremgard

Solla Ultima wrote:Sorry I half to ask do you like Putin

At this moment, I would not say that I particularly "like" him, certain things which he has done and allowed to happen do not please me, however I do respect him greatly, as he has singlehandedly brought Russia out of the absolute sh!thole that was the 90's and early 2000's (unless you have personally lived there in that time, you cannot possible comprehend how absolutely sh!tty it was). I respect him for wanting to keep Russia independent of western cultural influence.

Solla Ultima wrote:is Russia Really as backwards as American media makes them look?

Modern Russia is as modern as anyone is right now, we all have smartphones, social lives, hobbies, internet, etc. The issue right now is that people are still recovering from the insane economic sanctions that were put on the country a few years ago, as salaries were almost universally decreased after that, funding of infrastructure has decreased, etc. Though the country is slowly recovering, as this economic warfare has inspired a slow growth in domestic industries to supplement foreign imports.

You would have to specify on "backwards" if you want a more clear answer.

Solla Ultima, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5xRAkhaX4s

Solla Ultima wrote:I bought the deluxe edition as well and I'm so far happy with my purchase How about you?

I'd say I'm pretty happy with the game. There are some Civilization mainstays that I wish they'd add (Carthage, Ottomans, etc.), but I like the game otherwise: I think the Districts feature is a really interesting new concept, I like the return of Leader-specific abilities and civs having multiple Leaders, and I like that they gave an expanded role to religion. And it still keeps the essential features of previous Civ games (particularly Civ 5) that I liked.

Solla Ultima

Jaslandia wrote:I'd say I'm pretty happy with the game. There are some Civilization mainstays that I wish they'd add (Carthage, Ottomans, etc.), but I like the game otherwise: I think the Districts feature is a really interesting new concept, I like the return of Leader-specific abilities and civs having multiple Leaders, and I like that they gave an expanded role to religion. And it still keeps the essential features of previous Civ games (particularly Civ 5) that I liked.

I have Civ 5, is the upgrade worth it?

Jaslandia, Solla Ultima

You ever just want to slap a friend? I want to do that right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtBBDxiM_KI

Probably a familiar tune to a lot of you, I bet you had no idea that it was an actual song

Clemodecralia wrote:At this moment, I would not say that I particularly "like" him, certain things which he has done and allowed to happen do not please me, however I do respect him greatly, as he has singlehandedly brought Russia out of the absolute sh!thole that was the 90's and early 2000's (unless you have personally lived there in that time, you cannot possible comprehend how absolutely sh!tty it was). I respect him for wanting to keep Russia independent of western cultural influence.

Modern Russia is as modern as anyone is right now, we all have smartphones, social lives, hobbies, internet, etc. The issue right now is that people are still recovering from the insane economic sanctions that were put on the country a few years ago, as salaries were almost universally decreased after that, funding of infrastructure has decreased, etc. Though the country is slowly recovering, as this economic warfare has inspired a slow growth in domestic industries to supplement foreign imports.

You would have to specify on "backwards" if you want a more clear answer.

By "backwards" I meant with issues concerning civil rights and economic freedom as well as corruption and the constant involvement of Russia in foreign elections I'm not accusing you at all of supporting Russian intervention into Ukraine and other former soviet territories but just wondering if you believe Russia is trying to set the table for them to return to their former seat as a world superpower that is not to be tested in its resolve.

Jaslandia

Clemodecralia wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtBBDxiM_KI

Probably a familiar tune to a lot of you, I bet you had no idea that it was an actual song

Wait are you Russian?

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth wrote:I have Civ 5, is the upgrade worth it?

It's up to you, but if your finances allow it, I'd say go for it. There are plenty of new features that change the game and add new dynamics (new civs, new leaders, District features, new victory methods), while it still plays and looks roughly like a Civ 5 game, so the learning curve isn't that steep.

Solla Ultima, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth wrote:I have Civ 5, is the upgrade worth it?

I would say so but I do believe if you have steam that they offer a free demo of the game and if you like i would buy the base game and if you don't and you've played it less then two hours and haven't had it for over i believe at lest a week or two you can return it for a full refund. :)

Jaslandia

Clemodecralia wrote:Russian SSR here friend

What city? I've been to and speak a little Russian

Clemodecralia wrote:Yes

I know some Russian. Cука блять иди нахуй

Clemodecralia, Solla Ultima

Jaslandia wrote:It's up to you, but if your finances allow it, I'd say go for it. There are plenty of new features that change the game and add new dynamics (new civs, new leaders, District features, new victory methods), while it still plays and looks roughly like a Civ 5 game, so the learning curve isn't that steep.

I've noticed they have incorporated in lots of features that paradox has in their games and I can say that i am happy with these changes.

Jaslandia

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth wrote:I know some Russian. Cука блять иди нахуй

I did not know Russia still uses that format for their writing I would say it looks more difficult to write then that of the writing format that most of the developed western world uses.

Solla Ultima wrote:I did not know Russia still uses that format for their writing I would say it looks more difficult to write then that of the writing format that most of the developed western world uses.

It's called Cyrillic

Peoples Liberation Republic, Solla Ultima

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth wrote:It's called Cyrillic

you learn something knew every day, thats the beauty of asking questions. :)

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

Solla Ultima wrote:By "backwards" I meant with issues concerning civil rights and economic freedom as well as corruption and the constant involvement of Russia in foreign elections I'm not accusing you at all of supporting Russian intervention into Ukraine and other former soviet territories but just wondering if you believe Russia is trying to set the table for them to return to their former seat as a world superpower that is not to be tested in its resolve.

"World superpower"

I promise you that they can be a super power in name alome as their economic means of coercion have weakened significantly and their military is reliant on lies and propaganda.

Most of the Eastern States are fully able to defend themselves provided they protect from deserters through proper vetting.

Jaslandia, Solla Ultima

hey Nuremgard what is your favorite time period in history me personally I'm all over the place I've love to learn about history since I was five years old and have never stopped learning about time periods form the begging of civilization to up to the end of the cold war I think history provides a unique perspective on humanity accomplishments and short fallings after all a famous quote of history is "those you do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Nuremgard, Jaslandia

Kalaron wrote:"World superpower"

I promise you that they can be a super power in name alome as their economic means of coercion have weakened significantly and their military is reliant on lies and propaganda.

Most of the Eastern States are fully able to defend themselves provided they protect from deserters through proper vetting.

I think their nuclear stockpile would like to have a word with you.

Solla Ultima wrote:hey Nuremgard what is your favorite time period in history me personally I'm all over the place I've love to learn about history since I was five years old and have never stopped learning about time periods form the begging of civilization to up to the end of the cold war I think history provides a unique perspective on humanity accomplishments and short fallings after all a famous quote of history is "those you do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

I am also an avid fan of history and agree with the sentiment that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. If I had to zone in on a favourite time period, I'd go for the ancient times. You know: ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece etc. I love that sh!t.

Jaslandia, Solla Ultima

Nuremgard wrote:I am also an avid fan of history and agree with the sentiment that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. If I had to zone in on a favourite time period, I'd go for the ancient times. You know: ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece etc. I love that sh!t.

As do I :)

Nuremgard, Jaslandia

Solla Ultima wrote:I've noticed they have incorporated in lots of features that paradox has in their games and I can say that i am happy with these changes.

Interesting. I haven't really played a Paradox game outside of a free trial of CK2, so I wouldn't know. Still, I've heard good things about Paradox games.

Solla Ultima

Jaslandia wrote:Interesting. I haven't really played a Paradox game outside of a free trial of CK2, so I wouldn't know. Still, I've heard good things about Paradox games.

they have some what to much of a learning curve for me but i think the concept is absolutely genius

Solla Ultima wrote:As do I :)

I especially love the ancient Egyptians.

Solla Ultima

Solla Ultima wrote:I think their nuclear stockpile would like to have a word with you.

I mean, sure I'll have a word with it.

We'll talk long and hard about how nukes don't contribute to super-power status at all since multiple nations have them and some are the definition of anything but a Super-power.

Jaslandia, Solla Ultima

Nuremgard wrote:I especially love the ancient Egyptians.

I've just recently started to explore the world of ancient Egypt but I can say that I am particular fascinated buy their civilizations accomplishments involving architecture and irrigation of the Nile Delta. How about you?

Nuremgard

Solla Ultima wrote:By "backwards" I meant with issues concerning civil rights and economic freedom as well as corruption and the constant involvement of Russia in foreign elections I'm not accusing you at all of supporting Russian intervention into Ukraine and other former soviet territories but just wondering if you believe Russia is trying to set the table for them to return to their former seat as a world superpower that is not to be tested in its resolve.

I think that our civil rights aren't optimal, however I think that with the current social and political climate, they are "okay" or "appropriate" (I know that this is a vague statement, however unless I type up an essay, or have half an hour to explain over skype or something, the time which I don't really have, nor really care to explain, it would be hard to get this point across and be confident that you understand). Additionally I think that the situation of civil rights in Russia is blown greatly out of proportion by western media in order to simply stir up hate for how backwards the Russians supposedly are.

Technically speaking, we do have economic freedom, for example anyone willing can start a business, but the issue is the current state of very low salaries, which obviously means that the average person doesn't have too much buying power after living essentials. Real estate in major cities with an average salary is expensive, so unless you are in a well-paid career, or live in a non major city or downtown, you can probably afford nothing more than a family apartment.

I personally believe that the whole euromaidan event and the whole ordeal of the new president was an illegal and illegitimate act (not to say that I supported Yanukovich, but the way which he was replaced was illegitimate). I think that Ukraine is ultimately a cultural and historical brother of Russia, and that we belong together despite recent happenings (yes, I do firmly believe that there were extensive outsider efforts to rally up Ukrainians in 2014, that it wasn't entirely their own initiative). Perhaps ironic to what I have just said, I do strongly believe that Crimea is rightfully Russian, as the vast majority in the peninsula are of Russian ethnicity, language, and generally support Russia, along with follow Russian pop culture rather than Ukrainian pop culture. Plus if you think that Crimea was illegitimately taken by Russia, look back at when Khrushchev "gifted" Crimea to Ukraine back in the day, was that legitimate?

I don't believe that Russians want Russia to necessarily be a "superpower" again, however we do want to be as independent as we want from the west, meaning that we must get Russia in a position that if it wants to pursue its own goals, that it won't have to take sh!t from foreigners for doing so.

P.S. I'm likely not going to respond to most questions after this if I get many, I don't have a lot of free time.

Solla Ultima, Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

Solla Ultima wrote:I've just recently started to explore the world of ancient Egypt but I can say that I am particular fascinated buy their civilizations accomplishments involving architecture and irrigation of the Nile Delta. How about you?

I love their architecture and how they basically built an entire civilisation around one river. I also love how complex their social and political structures were. The concept of the divine Pharaoh always fascinated me.

They were also damn smart too. Way before anyone had discovered penicillin, the Egyptians knew that moldy bread had healing properties.

Jaslandia, Solla Ultima

Kalaron wrote:I mean, sure I'll have a word with it.

We'll talk long and hard about how nukes don't contribute to super-power status at all since multiple nations have them and some are the definition of anything but a Super-power.

True but Russia has not hesitated to flex its mussels win it is tested by arguably the only remaining superpower (that being the United States) since the fall of the Soviet Union

Yukona wrote:What city? I've been to and speak a little Russian

Voronezh, Moskva, Vladivostok, I've temporarily lived in a few others, but now I live outside of Russia to study.

Clemodecralia wrote:I think that our civil rights aren't optimal, however I think that with the current social and political climate, they are "okay" or "appropriate" (I know that this is a vague statement, however unless I type up an essay, or have half an hour to explain over skype or something, the time which I don't really have, nor really care to explain, it would be hard to get this point across and be confident that you understand). Additionally I think that the situation of civil rights in Russia is blown greatly out of proportion by western media in order to simply stir up hate for how backwards the Russians supposedly are.

Technically speaking, we do have economic freedom, for example anyone willing can start a business, but the issue is the current state of very low salaries, which obviously means that the average person doesn't have too much buying power after living essentials. Real estate in major cities with an average salary is expensive, so unless you are in a well-paid career, or live in a non major city or downtown, you can probably afford nothing more than a family apartment.

I personally believe that the whole euromaidan event and the whole ordeal of the new president was an illegal and illegitimate act (not to say that I supported Yanukovich, but the way which he was replaced was illegitimate). I think that Ukraine is ultimately a cultural and historical brother of Russia, and that we belong together despite recent happenings (yes, I do firmly believe that there were extensive outsider efforts to rally up Ukrainians in 2014, that it wasn't entirely their own initiative). Perhaps ironic to what I have just said, I do strongly believe that Crimea is rightfully Russian, as the vast majority in the peninsula are of Russian ethnicity, language, and generally support Russia, along with follow Russian pop culture rather than Ukrainian pop culture. Plus if you think that Crimea was illegitimately taken by Russia, look back at when Khrushchev "gifted" Crimea to Ukraine back in the day, was that legitimate?

I don't believe that Russians want Russia to necessarily be a "superpower" again, however we do want to be as independent as we want from the west, meaning that we must get Russia in a position that if it wants to pursue its own goals, that it won't have to take sh!t from foreigners for doing so.

P.S. I'm likely not going to respond to most questions after this if I get many, I don't have a lot of free time.

Ok, fair enough but would you not also say that in order for a true democratic society to function it must recognize the sovereign borders of a nation unless a referendum can prove Crimea's desire to be part of a grater Russian State? if you do not answer i completely understand. :)

Clemodecralia wrote:Voronezh, Moskva, Vladivostok, I've temporarily lived in a few others, but now I live outside of Russia to study.

Ah I've been to Moscow and St. Petersburg, fun times were had

Clemodecralia

Solla Ultima wrote:True but Russia has not hesitated to flex its mussels win it is tested by arguably the only remaining superpower (that being the United States) since the fall of the Soviet Union

Ah yes.

Flexing it's muscle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

Russia is no longer a super-power and it's not in any position to return to that when it's under enough economic restrictions that their "next generation" main battle tank has to cost less than [B]half[/B] Japan's Type 10, and Russia's PAK program begins to die within it's crib amidst engine fires and the question of if it can even function in a similar manner to the F-22.

It's lost the technological war, Sol, and it's only recourse is to try to puff up to make it seem big.

Solla Ultima

wait is it just me or was Yugoslavia not on the regional poll i though they were a member of the Warsaw pact until it started to collapse form the inside out?

Kalaron wrote:Ah yes.

Flexing it's muscle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

Russia is no longer a super-power and it's not in any position to return to that when it's under enough economic restrictions that their "next generation" main battle tank has to cost less than [B]half[/B] Japan's Type 10, and Russia's PAK program begins to die within it's crib amidst engine fires and the question of if it can even function in a similar manner to the F-22.

It's lost the technological war, Sol, and it's only recourse is to try to puff up to make it seem big.

I see your point, but they have tried to increase their presence on the world stage in the way in witch a super power would?

Solla Ultima wrote:I see your point, but they have tried to increase their presence on the world stage in the way in witch a super power would?

Interesting nation. Democratic empire which is communist and has an emperor.

Solla Ultima

Solla Ultima wrote:Ok, fair enough but would you not also say that in order for a true democratic society to function it must recognize the sovereign borders of a nation unless a referendum can prove Crimea's desire to be part of a grater Russian State? if you do not answer i completely understand. :)

Nope, I disagree. A democracy is only relevant to the people for which it serves, if country A is democratic and wants to invade sovereign country B, there is nothing undemocratic about that. Plus Crimea did have a referendum, just because Americans weren't invited to watch doesn't make it illegitimate in my eyes, in all honesty I was expecting the results to be such just by looking at the demographics.

Also, I want to make the point which I have forgotten to make in that huge post, that I do not recognize the Russian political structure to be fully democratic, nor do I deny that it is corrupt. (I want to point out however, the corruption is now virtually limited to higher levels of government and politics, Putin has done a good job with getting anti-corruption internal forces to root out corruption on low political and government levels, no more corrupt cops for example.

Solla Ultima

Nuremgard wrote:Interesting nation. Democratic empire which is communist and has an emperor.

Communits? I have no idea what you're talking about *hides all signs of communism in his office* we are a free and proud people are emperor is elected every time one dies and are government has a powerful senate that checks the emperors power but in the end the emperor alone controls the military might of the Sollanes Imperial Army. :)

Nuremgard

Solla Ultima wrote:I see your point, but they have tried to increase their presence on the world stage in the way in witch a super power would?

The most prevalent definition of a superpower, is a nation that has the capacity to project dominating power and influence anywhere in the world, and sometimes, in more than one region of the globe at a time, and so may plausibly attain the status of global hegemony.

The question is does Russia currently meet that criteria?

Kalaron

Solla Ultima wrote:I see your point, but they have tried to increase their presence on the world stage in the way in witch a super power would?

By ineffectually bullying one or two smaller states into joining it, yes.

That is not what defines a super power, though.

"Superpower is a term used to describe a state with a dominant position, which is characterised by its extensive ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale."

Does that sound like Russia? Because most of their actions haven't been on a global scale but a regional.

They can certainly effect events within their sphere of influence -as noted by them taking Ukraine- but it means nothing as to their ability to convince...say....Mexico that it's in their better interests to ignore Cuba diplomatically.

The closest they've gotten to a global change in the world really is fighting ISIS, but even then they had to ineffectually swat at Britain when the British MoD criticized their flawed carrier and the Middle East is still hardly a step up from the Region they inhabit.

Kalaron wrote:Ah yes.

Flexing it's muscle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

Russia is no longer a super-power and it's not in any position to return to that when it's under enough economic restrictions that their "next generation" main battle tank has to cost less than [B]half[/B] Japan's Type 10, and Russia's PAK program begins to die within it's crib amidst engine fires and the question of if it can even function in a similar manner to the F-22.

It's lost the technological war, Sol, and it's only recourse is to try to puff up to make it seem big.

The first Chechen War was a huge ClusterFvck, there is no doubt about that. It is unfair to judge Russia's current power by looking at the first conflict which it has fought immediately following a crippling regime change.

Tserra wrote:The most prevalent definition of a superpower, is a nation that has the capacity to project dominating power and influence anywhere in the world, and sometimes, in more than one region of the globe at a time, and so may plausibly attain the status of global hegemony.

The question is does Russia currently meet that criteria?

I dunno. But I'd personally consider the three current superpowers of the world as the USA, Russia and China.

Solla Ultima wrote:wait is it just me or was Yugoslavia not on the regional poll i though they were a member of the Warsaw pact until it started to collapse form the inside out?

Yugoslavia has formally abstained from the WP, in many cases they had actually cooperated with the west.

Solla Ultima

Kalaron wrote:Ah yes.

Flexing it's muscle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

Russia is no longer a super-power and it's not in any position to return to that when it's under enough economic restrictions that their "next generation" main battle tank has to cost less than [B]half[/B] Japan's Type 10, and Russia's PAK program begins to die within it's crib amidst engine fires and the question of if it can even function in a similar manner to the F-22.

It's lost the technological war, Sol, and it's only recourse is to try to puff up to make it seem big.

the PAK FA program is still being developed along with the other branches of the PAK program being on the drawing table, and the ARMATA platform is still in no position to be mass-produced, the developing stage for modern equipment is significantly lengthier than even a few decades ago.

Solla Ultima

Clemodecralia wrote:Nope, I disagree. A democracy is only relevant to the people for which it serves, if country A is democratic and wants to invade sovereign country B, there is nothing undemocratic about that. Plus Crimea did have a referendum, just because Americans weren't invited to watch doesn't make it illegitimate in my eyes, in all honesty I was expecting the results to be such just by looking at the demographics.

Also, I want to make the point which I have forgotten to make in that huge post, that I do not recognize the Russian political structure to be fully democratic, nor do I deny that it is corrupt. (I want to point out however, the corruption is now virtually limited to higher levels of government and politics, Putin has done a good job with getting anti-corruption internal forces to root out corruption on low political and government levels, no more corrupt cops for example.

But I never hear of the Russian equivalent of the us congress give Putin permission to attack a smaller notably weaker nation knowing that it was not at all capable of replying in kind to this blatant act of aggression buy the Russian military I will say that Putin is a incredibly smart may it be in the most devious of ways in his very carefully but brilliantly coordinated decisions. Agin please do not consider this a personal attack but a question I have for all Russians. :)

Clemodecralia wrote:the PAK FA program is still being developed along with the other branches of the PAK program being on the drawing table, and the ARMATA platform is still in no position to be mass-produced, the developing stage for modern equipment is significantly lengthier than even a few decades ago.

*F-35 slowly flies by*

Solla Ultima wrote:But I never hear of the Russian equivalent of the us congress give Putin permission to attack a smaller notably weaker nation knowing that it was not at all capable of replying in kind to this blatant act of aggression buy the Russian military I will say that Putin is a incredibly smart may it be in the most devious of ways in his very carefully but brilliantly coordinated decisions. Agin please do not consider this a personal attack but a question I have for all Russians. :)

The democracy exists in lower levels of government in reality, but officially speaking, the higher levels too. This is why I did not deny that corruption does not exist.

Also keep in mind that the US style of democracy of Congress is not necessarily universal in it's existence and power.

Solla Ultima wrote:*F-35 slowly flies by*

When did the F-35 program start, and when was it's maiden flight? When did the PAK FA program start, and when was it's maiden flight?

Solla Ultima

Solla Ultima wrote:*F-35 slowly flies by*

Nothing to see hear noting at all. For gods sakes this plan costed over 1 TRILLION dollars to make and in one of its test was beat by the very plane it was mean to replace. In Russian rubles thats over 59521300000000.00 god even i did't expect that kind of number I know Russia's currency is extremely worthless on the world stage but good lord.

Clemodecralia wrote:When did the F-35 program start, and when was it's maiden flight? When did the PAK FA program start, and when was it's maiden flight?

please hold.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=peoples_liberation_republic/detail=factbook/id=860627

Russkov Soviet, Nuremgard

Clemodecralia wrote:When did the F-35 program start, and when was it's maiden flight? When did the PAK FA program start, and when was it's maiden flight?

F-35:

Start: 1997

maiden flight: 2006

9 years

T-50:

Start: 2003

maiden flight: 2010

7 years

Not only does Russia have to deal with economic sanctions, but the program also surfaced faster, with less issues.

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

Oh goodness, another debate...

Andromitus, Solla Ultima

Friedensreich wrote:Oh goodness, another debate...

This is the debate that doesn't ends, yes it goes on and on my friends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ

Peoples Liberation Republic wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/nation=peoples_liberation_republic/detail=factbook/id=860627

I like how the banners change on the factbook. Nice flag too.

Russkov Soviet, Peoples Liberation Republic

Solla Ultima wrote:please hold.

the f-35 first flew on 15 December 2006 but the program I believe after a quick glance started in 2003

on the other hand the first shipment wasn't sent to the us military until the 31st of July 2015 and it counties to still need multiple modifications ever since its first shipment this subject is incredibly complex and is mired in US buracatic red tape that even me the person who has a Socialist Democratic Empire wont dare try to sort out all i can do is link a video form youtube and direct you to the wiki page for the plane sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ityn7PCEgiw

Solla Ultima wrote:please hold.

Clemodecralia wrote:F-35:

Start: 1997

maiden flight: 2006

9 years

T-50:

Start: 2003

maiden flight: 2010

7 years

Not only does Russia have to deal with economic sanctions, but the program also surfaced faster, with less issues.

Mind you, I'm not trying to make any implication that Russia is a superpower, nor am I trying to make any statement about its air power VS the USAF or USN, rather I am addressing the comment made on taht Russia is falling back technologically, which it is not.

Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth

Clemodecralia wrote:F-35:

Start: 1997

maiden flight: 2006

9 years

T-50:

Start: 2003

maiden flight: 2010

7 years

Not only does Russia have to deal with economic sanctions, but the program also surfaced faster, with less issues.

There needs to be a word for people that like the Russian military.

Spetsnaz-aboo?

Russiaboo?

Ffs, what about even Putinaboo?

Friedensreich wrote:There needs to be a word for people that like the Russian military.

Spetsnaz-aboo?

Russiaboo?

Ffs, what about even Putinaboo?

I believe it is Slavaboo or Russoboo

Friedensreich wrote:Oh goodness, another debate...

Debating is a way for me to challenge my ideas and have others poke holes in them I find it quite fun. :)

Friedensreich

Clemodecralia wrote:I believe it is Slavaboo or Russoboo

Slavaboo doesn't or rather shouldn't work, because there are more slavs than there are Russians, and Russians are only a member of the Slavic group.

Russoboo works. Kinda like Chinaboo and Deutschaboo.

Clemodecralia wrote:Mind you, I'm not trying to make any implication that Russia is a superpower, nor am I trying to make any statement about its air power VS the USAF or USN, rather I am addressing the comment made on taht Russia is falling back technologically, which it is not.

I strongly suggest you watch the video i linked when you have the time it will answer all of your questions and more :)

Clemodecralia wrote:the PAK FA program is still being developed along with the other branches of the PAK program being on the drawing table, and the ARMATA platform is still in no position to be mass-produced, the developing stage for modern equipment is significantly lengthier than even a few decades ago.

Which proves exactly what I said before.

The Armata isn't the sort of tank they pass it off as, because they rely on the spirit of nationalism to spirit away the actual problems with the hardware and will plan to get by through just not using it. As for the PAK-FA, it's last step that I heard was it's engine had a missfire, and that the Indians were looking into their own JSF analogue.

Solla Ultima wrote:Nothing to see hear noting at all. For gods sakes this plan costed over 1 TRILLION dollars to make and in one of its test was beat by the very plane it was mean to replace. In Russian rubles thats over 59521300000000.00 god even i did't expect that kind of number I know Russia's currency is extremely worthless on the world stage but good lord.

Incorrect.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/troubled-f-35-fighter-jet-rules-skies-toughest-test-yet/

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-slaughters-competition-red-flag-2017-2

The test you're referring to was a very biased one to draw conclusions from. It used an F-35 Airframe prototype with a pilot with only some two hundred hours of experience (a fraction of which was spent inside a real cockpit) and was to test maneuverability in a dog fight against a mature fighter with a pilot with some 2,000 hours of experience in the F-16. Additionally, the F-35 is built for different tasks, it's not meant to be a fighter as that's the job of the F-22 and is further meant to be able to loiter around the AO for a significantly long period of time without the use of a form breaking fuel tank. Lastly, the test didn't account for real combat loads, wherein, the weight of the F-16 is brought much closer to the F-35 and fair comparisons can be made.

Those two above articles speak of more recent and more accurate tests.

Clemodecralia wrote:F-35:

Start: 1997

maiden flight: 2006

9 years

T-50:

Start: 2003

maiden flight: 2010

7 years

Not only does Russia have to deal with economic sanctions, but the program also surfaced faster, with less issues.

The PAK-FA is a single branch aircraft, which would be the reason why for both of the latter statements.

A fair comparison isn't the F-35, but the F-22, both in role and in actual goals.

Furthermore, the reason that the F-35 has actually fallen behind is again due to it's multi-branch use, the F-35A/B/C all utilize specialty equipment, the F-35B especially as it fulfills a SVTOL capability and requires a re-arranging of the engine and a whole mess of systems to cope. This is also ignoring that it's been developed alongside most of the technology that is meant to be attached to it, like the HMD or IRST for stealth craft. The PAK-FA doesn't possess either a fully programmed HMD and nor does it possess the capability to autonomously clear the airspace from beyond the horizon IIRC, so the primary challenges would be designing a suitable RCS paint and form.

Solla Ultima

Friedensreich wrote:Deutschaboo.

It's actually Wehrboo

Solla Ultima wrote:Nothing to see hear noting at all. For gods sakes this plan costed over 1 TRILLION dollars to make and in one of its test was beat by the very plane it was mean to replace. In Russian rubles thats over 59521300000000.00 god even i did't expect that kind of number I know Russia's currency is extremely worthless on the world stage but good lord.

I accidentally tapped that number as I scrolled by and my phone tried to call it.

Can't wait to pay for a 2 second phone call to Tibet.

Solla Ultima

Nuremgard wrote:That's a bit of a mouthful. Just the way I like it. ;)

:|

Andromitus, Solla Ultima

Clemodecralia wrote:It's actually Wehrboo

No, that's for ww2 Germany. As someone that likes the German Empire, the distinction must be made clear that Wehraboos are those that like Germany's military circa ww2.

Kalaron wrote:Which proves exactly what I said before.

The Armata isn't the sort of tank they pass it off as, because they rely on the spirit of nationalism to spirit away the actual problems with the hardware and will plan to get by through just not using it. As for the PAK-FA, it's last step that I heard was it's engine had a missfire, and that the Indians were looking into their own JSF analogue.

Incorrect.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/troubled-f-35-fighter-jet-rules-skies-toughest-test-yet/

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-slaughters-competition-red-flag-2017-2

The test you're referring to was a very biased one to draw conclusions from. It used an F-35 Airframe prototype with a pilot with only some two hundred hours of experience (a fraction of which was spent inside a real cockpit) and was to test maneuverability in a dog fight against a mature fighter with a pilot with some 2,000 hours of experience in the F-16. Additionally, the F-35 is built for different tasks, it's not meant to be a fighter as that's the job of the F-22 and is further meant to be able to loiter around the AO for a significantly long period of time without the use of a form breaking fuel tank. Lastly, the test didn't account for real combat loads, wherein, the weight of the F-16 is brought much closer to the F-35 and fair comparisons can be made.

Those two above articles speak of more recent and more accurate tests.

The PAK-FA is a single branch aircraft, which would be the reason why for both of the latter statements.

A fair comparison isn't the F-35, but the F-22, both in role and in actual goals.

Furthermore, the reason that the F-35 has actually fallen behind is again due to it's multi-branch use, the F-35A/B/C all utilize specialty equipment, the F-35B especially as it fulfills a SVTOL capability and requires a re-arranging of the engine and a whole mess of systems to cope. This is also ignoring that it's been developed alongside most of the technology that is meant to be attached to it, like the HMD or IRST for stealth craft. The PAK-FA doesn't possess either a fully programmed HMD and nor does it possess the capability to autonomously clear the airspace from beyond the horizon IIRC, so the primary challenges would be designing a suitable RCS paint and form.

ok I must admit I was incorrect with my statement but to develop a plane that costed around 1.1 Trillion and for it to still have multiple issues and some experts say that is plane for how much it costed is not worth is significant draw backs I stand firm in my belief that this plane is nothing more than a welfare handout to the military infrastructure that is know for nickling and dimming the US government when ever they can

Auxorii wrote::|

I'd go for Francis or Valentine.

Auxorii

Auxorii wrote::|

thanks for stating this conversation agin its not like i was just recovering form the last time this happened

Auxorii

Auxorii wrote::|

Not being Catholic I'm likely mistaken, but I thought confirmation took place earlier in life. I feel like all my friends in high school confirmed before they entered high school.

Continental Commonwealths wrote:Not being Catholic I'm likely mistaken, but I thought confirmation took place earlier in life. I feel like all my friends in high school confirmed before they entered high school.

I also find this strange as I had my confirmation when I was a wean.

Continental Commonwealths wrote:Not being Catholic I'm likely mistaken, but I thought confirmation took place earlier in life. I feel like all my friends in high school confirmed before they entered high school.

sorry but you've lost me

Solla Ultima wrote:sorry but you've lost me

Aux is having his confirmation soon, presumably because he is Catholic as this is one of the milestones for those of the Catholic faith. That's why he's been discussing choosing a confirmation name.

He's said he is in his late-ish teens, so I'm just curious as I went to a Catholic high school and my friends who were of the faith had their confirmations at a younger age.

Solla Ultima

Kalaron wrote:Which proves exactly what I said before.

The Armata isn't the sort of tank they pass it off as, because they rely on the spirit of nationalism to spirit away the actual problems with the hardware and will plan to get by through just not using it.

Again, the ARMATA platform is in it's infancy testing stage, don't be misinformed that because multiple iterations of the ARMATA platforms were shown in a few parades, that it is in its final developmental stage.

Kalaron wrote:As for the PAK-FA, it's last step that I heard was it's engine had a missfire, and that the Indians were looking into their own JSF analogue.

One of the prototypes did have an engine fire, however that was over a year ago, some of the recent prototypes were shown to fly with no issue, and on a few Russian forums, there is discussion of what progress has been made.

I don't really care about the Indians, as they have no hope of competitive domestic fighter production, let alone 5th gen, they are technologically far from leading military hardware developing nations.

Kalaron wrote:A fair comparison isn't the F-35, but the F-22, both in role and in actual goals.

Furthermore, the reason that the F-35 has actually fallen behind is again due to it's multi-branch use, the F-35A/B/C all utilize specialty equipment, the F-35B especially as it fulfills a SVTOL capability and requires a re-arranging of the engine and a whole mess of systems to cope. This is also ignoring that it's been developed alongside most of the technology that is meant to be attached to it, like the HMD or IRST for stealth craft. The PAK-FA doesn't possess either a fully programmed HMD and nor does it possess the capability to autonomously clear the airspace from beyond the horizon IIRC, so the primary challenges would be designing a suitable RCS paint and form.

I am not denying any sort of claim that the US is definitely ahead of everyone, rather I am arguing against that Russia has taken the backseat in technological development. Russia is trying its hardest right now to catch up what a few critical decades had it had missed due to the clusterfvck that was the soviet collapse. It has already caught up and surpassed the technological development of European domestic technology, its next step is the hard one, of catching up the the US, which is obviously being held back with Russia's current economy.

I put the blame of technological difference on the fact that Russian technological development was seriously stagnated as early as the early-mid 80's, which continued up until the early 2000's

Friedensreich wrote:No, that's for ww2 Germany. As someone that likes the German Empire, the distinction must be made clear that Wehraboos are those that like Germany's military circa ww2.

well then that's a prussiaboo

Continental Commonwealths wrote:Aux is having his confirmation soon, presumably because he is Catholic as this is one of the milestones for those of the Catholic faith. That's why he's been discussing choosing a confirmation name.

He's said he is in his late-ish teens, so I'm just curious as I went to a Catholic high school and my friends who were of the faith had their confirmations at a younger age.

thanks for clearing that up was very confused. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8K0sW8GX-4

Listen to some soviet underground rock

Clemodecralia wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8K0sW8GX-4

Listen to some soviet underground rock

This is one of the few Russian songs I've heard, courtesy of my sister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fro6je9L5kg&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwo7KP08lpQ

N O S T A L G I A

Clemodecralia wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwo7KP08lpQ

N O S T A L G I A

Communist music is always so rousing.

Solla Ultima wrote:ok I must admit I was incorrect with my statement but to develop a plane that costed around 1.1 Trillion and for it to still have multiple issues and some experts say that is plane for how much it costed is not worth is significant draw backs I stand firm in my belief that this plane is nothing more than a welfare handout to the military infrastructure that is know for nickling and dimming the US government when ever they can

Again, problem here.

The US MIC is to blame -somewhat- for the state of the F-35, but it's humorously not as bad as it's always made out.

The F-35 is a Multi-Branch Bird, we knew it cost money and we always will because it always does cost money to innovate. It helps that the F-35's actual predecessor isn't the Light Multi-Role F-16 at all, but the A-10C. This craft suffers from the same detrimental downsides as the AC-130. Slow craft can no longer risk flying around an area over and over and over again as rapidly advancing fuse warheads are becoming available that decrease the effectiveness of countermeasures like chaff, which means that the Marine Fire Squad who called in Friendly CAS on an enemy Morter is now in extreme danger from the unabated fire that's coming down around their ears.

In extreme situations, one might lose both the aircraft and the fire squad, maybe even the mission objective too if there aren't friendly elements in the area to pick up where they left off. This ignores the horrendous impact on moral that one must now face. Furthermore, though the MIC was slightly responsible for the craft, the primary issue is that it's no ones actual fault. Lockheed gave a bid for what they though a Stealth Aircraft might cost if they built it. This bid wasn't a lie, though, it was just optimistic and the same was true of the X-32 and the simple reason is that to do otherwise is suicide. Other companies will come and take your role and you'll be kicked to the wayside and you still might have undershot it's actual cost.

Overall, the F-35 is expensive, but it's needed to keep costs down in the future from the loss of air squadrons.

Clemodecralia wrote:Mind you, I'm not trying to make any implication that Russia is a superpower, nor am I trying to make any statement about its air power VS the USAF or USN, rather I am addressing the comment made on taht Russia is falling back technologically, which it is not.

Ah, forget to comment on this.

Russia is building a plane at this point that is literally thirteen years past the fair comparison and it's unlikely to achieve true operation within any small Timespan. Russia has fallen out of the saddle and is attempting to recover it's momentum by building a quick jet that is still in it's early stages while the competition gets older but no less competitive.

This is the definition of losing the technological edge.

Clemodecralia wrote:Again, the ARMATA platform is in it's infancy testing stage, don't be misinformed that because multiple iterations of the ARMATA platforms were shown in a few parades, that it is in its final developmental stage.

One of the prototypes did have an engine fire, however that was over a year ago, some of the recent prototypes were shown to fly with no issue, and on a few Russian forums, there is discussion of what progress has been made.

I don't really care about the Indians, as they have no hope of competitive domestic fighter production, let alone 5th gen, they are technologically far from leading military hardware developing nations.

I am not denying any sort of claim that the US is definitely ahead of everyone, rather I am arguing against that Russia has taken the backseat in technological development. Russia is trying its hardest right now to catch up what a few critical decades had it had missed due to the clusterfvck that was the soviet collapse. It has already caught up and surpassed the technological development of European domestic technology, its next step is the hard one, of catching up the the US, which is obviously being held back with Russia's current economy.

I put the blame of technological difference on the fact that Russian technological development was seriously stagnated as early as the early-mid 80's, which continued up until the early 2000's

The T-14 is supposedly being produced right now, so...nuts to that.

As for the Russia passing Europe's own native Germany, I have to strike a massive problem with that as, yet again, the cost of a mainstreamed T-14 is again expected to cost just 3.7Mil compared to the Leopard 2A7 costs some 6Mil (These costs, by the way, aren't something that can be cleansed through different construction, they go into the electronics suite of the Tank as well as the armour and gun) and the Japanese Fourth Gen costs more than double it through the use of the latest electronic systems. In short, the 2A7 or it's potential upgrade to 2A7++ for the 130mm main gun is still likely better than the remarkably cheap MBT. Regardless, it's not a question of whether Russia is struggling to catch up or not. It's if they lost the edge, which you acknowledge that they did.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/russia-claims-t14-armata-tank-is-in-production-2016-3

Kalaron wrote:Russia is building a plane at this point that is literally thirteen years past the fair comparison and it's unlikely to achieve true operation within any small Timespan. Russia has fallen out of the saddle and is attempting to recover it's momentum by building a quick jet that is still in it's early stages while the competition gets older but no less competitive.

This is the definition of losing the technological edge.

Losing the technological edge to America, it is still very much competitive to literally everyone else.

By pursuing the PAK projects, Russia gains a foothold in the next generation, the question is whether or not it can afford in the future to come up to speed.

Kalaron wrote:The T-14 is supposedly being produced right now, so...nuts to that.

The T-14 is still in its developmental stage. Countries produce limited batches of vehicles for military units to use and to root out issues, they send them back, the developmental bureau fixes the issues, then they produce a new batch and upgrade the old one if possible, rinse and repeat until a final standard equipment has been produced, then the military typically begin to order mass batches. This happens with literally any piece of equipment, weapon, or vehicle, in every single country.

Kalaron wrote:As for the Russia passing Europe's own native Germany, I have to strike a massive problem with that as, yet again, the cost of a mainstreamed T-14 is again expected to cost just 3.7Mil compared to the Leopard 2A7 costs some 6Mil (These costs, by the way, aren't something that can be cleansed through different construction, they go into the electronics suite of the Tank as well as the armour and gun) and the Japanese Fourth Gen costs more than double it through the use of the latest electronic systems. In short, the 2A7 or it's potential upgrade to 2A7++ for the 130mm main gun is still likely better than the remarkably cheap MBT.

Mind you, the cost is reflected off of the domestic labor costs, and the costs of the sourcing of equipment.

Kalaron wrote:Regardless, it's not a question of whether Russia is struggling to catch up or not. It's if they lost the edge, which you acknowledge that they did.

As I've said, Russia has lost the edge to the US, however it still retains a very competitive edge to anyone else below the US

Clemodecralia wrote:well then that's a prussiaboo

*high pitched nasally voice*

Are you assuming my Boo? I prefer the term Reichaboo, thank you!

*/high pitched nasally voice*

Friedensreich wrote:*high pitched nasally voice*

Are you assuming my Boo? I prefer the term Reichaboo, thank you!

*/high pitched nasally voice*

*koniggratzer marsch starts playing in the distance*

Clemodecralia wrote:Losing the technological edge to America, it is still very much competitive to literally everyone else.

By pursuing the PAK projects, Russia gains a foothold in the next generation, the question is whether or not it can afford in the future to come up to speed.

The T-14 is still in its developmental stage. Countries produce limited batches of vehicles for military units to use and to root out issues, they send them back, the developmental bureau fixes the issues, then they produce a new batch and upgrade the old one if possible, rinse and repeat until a final standard equipment has been produced, then the military typically begin to order mass batches. This happens with literally any piece of equipment, weapon, or vehicle, in every single country.

Mind you, the cost is reflected off of the domestic labor costs, and the costs of the sourcing of equipment.

As I've said, Russia has lost the edge to the US, however it still retains a very competitive edge to anyone else below the US

The T-14 bar nothing cannot slip under 50% the cost of the Type 10 while retaining parity with western designs as an MBT. There is no explanation for why it should cost less than eight million dollars when all other main battle tanks are getting much more expensive due to the equipment being kitted out on them. The numbers given are the complete mass-production cost figures.

As for it's status, being tested by a tank crew isn't infancy, and being put down originally at a maximum procurement date of 2020 makes it clear that the craft isn't closer to the beginning of it's design phase rather than the end. This isn't to say that it wont take years for them to acquire it, but rather that the Tank has been put down for 3.9Mil per unit and is closer to the end of designing.

As for the latter matter, again, Germany's Leopard 2A7, and the Leopard 2A7 with the 130mm barrel will likely have parity with the US M1A2SEPv2 except for effective armour, of which there is potentially less on a minor scale that is countered by the application of ERA arrays. This isn't to say that Russia would be curb-stomped in the land war, but that the German design has superior aspects, tactically if nothing else, that afford it increased penetration, high speeds, and the ability to wrap all of this into a proven chassis with additionally placed armour.

Nuremgard wrote:I like how the banners change on the factbook. Nice flag too.

Speaking of flags, I saw a design as I was driving and now want to meld it with mine xD

Nuremgard

Russkov Soviet wrote:Speaking of flags, I saw a design as I was driving and now want to meld it with mine xD

What did you see?

Kalaron wrote:The T-14 bar nothing cannot slip under 50% the cost of the Type 10 while retaining parity with western designs as an MBT. There is no explanation for why it should cost less than eight million dollars when all other main battle tanks are getting much more expensive due to the equipment being kitted out on them. The numbers given are the complete mass-production cost figures.

As for it's status, being tested by a tank crew isn't infancy, and being put down originally at a maximum procurement date of 2020 makes it clear that the craft isn't closer to the beginning of it's design phase rather than the end. This isn't to say that it wont take years for them to acquire it, but rather that the Tank has been put down for 3.9Mil per unit and is closer to the end of designing.

As for the latter matter, again, Germany's Leopard 2A7, and the Leopard 2A7 with the 130mm barrel will likely have parity with the US M1A2SEPv2 except for effective armour, of which there is potentially less on a minor scale that is countered by the application of ERA arrays. This isn't to say that Russia would be curb-stomped in the land war, but that the German design has superior aspects, tactically if nothing else, that afford it increased penetration, high speeds, and the ability to wrap all of this into a proven chassis with additionally placed armour.

I still think that it has a lot to do with labor costs, as wages in Russia are significantly lower than of Germany or Japan, along with Russia having more immediate and cheaper access to raw and processed material, especially significantly more than Japan, plus you must account for the extreme difference of inflation of the Ruble to the US Dollar.

Obviously this is going to sound biased, especially considering my position in this topic, but I think that if the T-14 was hypothetically being researched and built by Germany or Japan, with all of the same kit and electronics and whatnot, that the price would jump up significantly, perhaps not to the same level as the latest Leopard or the Type-10, but I am willing to bet that there would be a very significant difference of manufacture costs.

Nuremgard wrote:What did you see?

It was some business flag. They combined their logo with the state flag. I'm keeping the state part, but putting a national emblem instead. (Most people will know what state I'm in upon seeing it)

Nuremgard

Russkov Soviet wrote:It was some business flag. They combined their logo with the state flag. I'm keeping the state part, but putting a national emblem instead. (Most people will know what state I'm in upon seeing it)

What will be your national emblem? The communist sickle?

Russkov Soviet

Nuremgard wrote:What will be your national emblem? The communist sickle?

Well..... Its part of it for sure.

Nuremgard

Damn. In my horrible country I certainly put the poor in their place. Their incomes had risen bizarrely high despite my constant pro-business decisions. I sent in the police to break up a labour strike and it decreased the poor's income by 56%. From 119,000 a year to 52,000 a year.

Jaslandia

Nuremgard wrote:Damn. In my horrible country I certainly put the poor in their place. Their incomes had risen bizarrely high despite my constant pro-business decisions. I sent in the police to break up a labour strike and it decreased the poor's income by 56%. From 119,000 a year to 52,000 a year.

For me: the average income is an amazing 361,260 Dollars, but there is a large disparity between incomes, with the richest 10% of citizens earning 1,491,870 per year while the poor average 57,514, a ratio of 25.9 to 1

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