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Region: The Confederacy of Free Nations
Most people don't even pay 40 percent. That only applies to those who make over $418,400 ($470,700 for those who are married), who make up about 1 to 2 percent of the population. And we're talking about the marginal tax rate here. The government actually doesn't take 40 percent from these people. The effective tax rate for the top bracket is around 25 to 26 percent. So in a nutshell, you are complaining about a tax bracket that doesn't apply to most people and doesn't actually take 40% of one's income.
https://taxfoundation.org/2017-tax-brackets/
http://www.investopedia.com/news/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/
http://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/how-much-do-americans-pay-in-federal-taxes
Jaslandia
Oh, God in heaven. I'm sure we can have this discussion without once again analogizing nonconsensual intercourse.
Jaslandia
Wait so you are saying we can't have roads, schools or hospitals without income tax? What about all of the countries that don't have income tax but still are "civilized"?
If the african americans would leave the US that would make things better for the Klan. Just sayin'
Income tax is not the only source of income for a government. VAT, corporation tax, inheritance tax etc. Many options for a government to take in revenue.
Jaslandia
I don't live in the US
The 40 percent thing made me think of the U.S. since our top bracket is about 40 percent.
I wouldn't use them if I had the choice not to. And there are people in Iceland that don't use any government services, why are they supposed to pay taxes then? They don't use water or energy or roads or schools, you name it. Why on God's green earth are they supposed to pay taxes then?
I know, and most of them are wrong. But if they have so many options why income tax?
Do they build and pay for their own roads? Their own schools for their kids? Do they put out their own fires? Stop crime themselves? Prosecute criminals in their own courts?
If the answer is yes to any of the above, then they do use government services. Don't be obtuse.
Jaslandia
And by the wayNuremgard, you didn't answer me when I asked how come there are civilized nations without income tax?
They are wrong in your opinion. Income tax is a very lucrative source of income, that's why.
Actually they don't
I just did. Because there are other forms of taxation.
Sure friend. I believe you there are totally people in Iceland that are so self-sufficient they even hover over roads if they ever have to go anywhere, and do not drive on them at all. Only with their amazing hover technology.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, Yukona
Oh aye? Do they build and use their own roads then? Courthouses, schools etc.? Wow, they must be stinking rich.
Jaslandia
You...you wouldn't use roads?
I'm sorry but what?
Also good luck with clean drinking water with no ground contaminants.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQShSBhzG40
Very topical.
Jaslandia, Yukona
They stay at the same place and grow their own food? They don't send their kids to school, and no, they aren't rich
Ahh right, because private roads are not a thing
So their kids are morons then. How do they stop crime or prosecute criminals without using the state system?
It doesn't matter if his kids are morons, why is he supposed to pay taxes? There is no crime? And, private law enforcement has worked in Iceland before https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-government
...Do they grade their own roads? Maintain them? Where does the money for this come from if they are not rich? It sounds to me like you are referring to a community of people who all chip in towards the maintenance of something they all use. Not sure what that term is called. Gosh. Let me think about it....
Nuremgard
This isn't about making things better for citizens. It's pure ideology.
Now I'm away for my dinner.
It's called a single guy that was tired of life so he moved deep into some valley and grew his own food so he didn't have to go anywhere
You know, if nothing else, let us all celebrate the fact that no one is insane enough to suggest a privatized military to defend the nation.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
It is because then the citizens don't have to pay taxes?
Don't give them ideas lol
Jaslandia
Again, your obsession with taxes. Seek help. And make sure you go to a private therapist, not one of those disgusting publicly funded ones. :P
Tserra
Woah now, the seek help bit is a smidgen far broskie,
Trust me, I'll slap anyone who suggests it :P
Post self-deleted by Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth.
Why not?
When you can. So you sometimes use public services?
Do not even. You know darn well why that would be bad. You know darn well what sort of negative effects that would bring.
It's the topic we were talking about? and yeah, When I see a therapist I go private, like I try do when I can
Post self-deleted by Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth.
It wasn't meant for you but I can answer you if you want. Yes, I use public services because the government has a fvcking monopoly on them
I win.
No?
Yes. I win. You conceded you sometimes use public services. That is why everyone is taxed.
So....
...I win.
That's no excuse. If I am forced to do one thing doesn't mean I should be forced to do another
It's so sad how you're all pretending to be naive
To be fair, the NHS is probably the best healthcare system on Earth. My father lived in the UK for years and the NHS has done extraordinary work, better than the US or Ireland. My cousin just moved from Dublin to London for the healthcare services the NHS provides.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
Unless these people are grade a teachers themselves, then I can say I have very little respect for them. Robbing your children of schooling and further education is a terrible thing in and of itself.
Jaslandia, Kalaron
I win. :P
:'(
Well, the person I knew doesn't have kids
Goddamn it that ain't an answer
India Whiskey-India-November
I win.
The United Providences Of Perland, Yukona
First of all, anecdote. If this person says they would not send their kids to school in the event they had them, then same as I said.
Second of all: "They don't send their kids to school"
Unless this "they" doesn't actually exist, and you made them up, I still stand by what I said. I know they exist all over the US and I have very little respect for most of them as well.
Jaslandia
Good for you.
That's not my point though. They point is that they don't use public services so why should they be taxed? And don't say "muh social contract" it's a bullshit excuse and you know it
Sssshhh, you're confusing his narrative. Public = baaaaad. Private = goooood.
Hey, it's my narrative too. I don't deny that competition provides the best quality at the lowest price, especially in healthcare, the free market can do great things in healthcare, however, as a christian and just basic morality, nobody should have to worry about getting sick and not being able to pay a hospital bill. That's why I like single payer, it's the best of both worlds.
Jaslandia, Tserra
It's so sad how you're pretending anyone in this world can be completely self-sufficient.
https://youtu.be/MRq_pRbtSM4
https://youtu.be/GGXzlRoNtHU
One of the few things we agree on I suppose.
Jaslandia
Look guys I don't have a problem with how my tax money is spent. It's that violation of consent is not right. By justifying the violation of consent by forcing me to pay taxes is to justify all kinds of coercion like rape and assault. The only thing that separates assault from boxing is consent. The only thing that separates lovemaking from rape is consent. It doesn't matter how beneficial taxes are, or how much you want them, coercion is not okay. period
Because Article 16 of the United States Constitution allows congress to levy taxes on citizens..? If you are a citizen, you pay taxes, just because I don't use Social Security now doesn't mean I won't later, for example. I would bring up the principle of the poor who couldn't do anything in life without our basic public education system, but conservatives only care about 1% of the population *shrug*. It is your duty as a citizen to pay taxes just as much as it is for you to vote.
It's a social contract. Even if they don't use government programs, they still live in a country, and still have citizenship. Even if they don't use public services consciously, they still make use of them. They're protected by a national military and police force. Unless they are doctors themselves, they probably go to a hospital, which in turn uses a ton of government funded programs. They are protected by the courts, their rights enshrined by them. They are given representation in government.
That is the way states work. You don't want to pay taxes, then move somewhere where there is no infrastructure, no police force, no military, no enforceable uniformed law, and, by extension, no taxation. And then come back and talk about how glorious a tax free society is.
Jaslandia, Kalaron, Tserra, The United Providences Of Perland
https://youtu.be/MRq_pRbtSM4
Well, for a number of reasons involving funds, the laundering thereof, inexperience in combat, loyalty to a paycheck (This is always bad, there have been examples of PMCs acting courageously but that's separate from solely having them) as well as the subsequent existence of a military force that is controlled by a non-state actor that holds it's forces within the land.
If you want, I can write out more, but for now.
A) Companies won't seek the technological edge when they already have state connections (Fictional Country A can't really leverage buying power when Company B is situated inside of it and has been the sole working force for years. The number of layoffs from natives employed would be bad news and the company has comparably massive amounts of ordnance that is now useless to them except for a coup.
B) Companies are inherently more vulnerable to high level laundering than a state run military with proper oversite. This problem is related to the fact that a military is full of people who would chew you out for stealing from the Nation, and the higher up on the totem pole you go the worse the teeth that are gonna chew, typically.
C) A military leader can often be a business leader too as they learn the skills needed to be calm and collected during extremely high risk operations. A business leader put in a military commanders shoes would die from a heart attack due to sheer stress. Furthermore, the experience of semi-recent conflict helps to train a military commander in what threats are currently facing his troops and would want to find out how to protect them as well as possible, as cheaply as possible and in that order exclusively, a business would otherwise want to find out the cheapest solution to literally everything the soldiers faced, and focus on protection levels after finding the cheapest models possible. This would also have problems relating to the technological edge as mentioned earlier. Everything would be a half-baked upgrade to previously made tanks so as to keep costs as low possible, so Tanks (for example) wouldn't be the cutting edge we have RN, but a series of poorly upgraded M60A3s with a few more ballistics computers and a 120mm main gun. Or everything would just fire a HEAT rocket.
In short, things get expensive pretty fast, and corporations are well known for their measures to cut costs.
D)...It's hosting what is essentially mercenaries in a country without it's own military. Can anyone say "Coup"?
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
You don't consent, then don't live in a specific country and be a drain on the rest of society's resources.
Nuremgard
Remove consent and it's no longer taxation. Then we go back to the bad old days when people relied on the kindness of rich people and charity. Not a good substitute for a state. If you don't believe me, look at poverty in Victorian Britain.
You could say that, logically, taxes are part of living in a advanced civilization:O
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
Right wingers seem to think taxes are a left wing invention and are used only by left wingers. If I'm no mistaken, taxes existed long ago when kings and emperors ruled the roost. Monarchs, for the most part, were not known for their, shall we say, left wing credentials.
tell that to Julius Caesar
Yukona
There are exceptions to every rule of course. Plenty of monarchs championed policies to help their poorer subjects.
Peoples Liberation Republic
No? This is also my country. And I have the same question for you. If you want universal healthcare and free education why not just move to a country that has it?
He probably would if he could.
Taxes, in the sense have existed before nations themselves. Early humans used the acts of pulling your weight with hunting, and farming for the rest of the tribe, and in turn you also reap some benefits. An example from within 1000+ being Native Americans, they had quotas of furs and food.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
So you are saying he can't? Then why are there different rules for me? America started from libertarian roots. If progressives didn't like small, decentralized government, why didn't they just leave the country?
Kal wins.
The United Providences Of Perland
Society, even in its most primitive sense, has always existed.
The United Providences Of Perland
I win.
The United Providences Of Perland
Also Nurem wins.
Oh and Sul wins also.
Do I win papa Tse?
Yeah because he can't answer a basic question
I'm not ordering you to leave your country. I suggested to you that was an option, if you have the financial clout that is.
Stay home. Fight for change. If you cant get the majority on your side, deal with it. That's democracy unfortunately. It's a bitch. I was on the losing side of the independence referendum so I should know.
The United Providences Of Perland
I was on the losing side of Obama Care/the AHCA
Hmm.....ok. Perl wins.
The United Providences Of Perland
I don't get it though? Why do Scots not want independence?
We win.
The United Providences Of Perland
They'd have to switch currencies, elect a new government, establish a constitution/charter, etc.
Taxation somehow being a justification for rape and assault is about the most disgusting thing I've heard this year so good job.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland, Yukona, Magnatronia
Haven't seen ya in a bit Unf, hello. And indeed.
Jaslandia
Heya Perl I was brought back by the alluring scent of medieval RP
Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland
There is no justification for taxes, so there is no justification for rape and assault either
Because I pay my taxes. I pay for taxes that ensure my nation doesn't become a third world hell-hole because I lose a few bucks on my paycheck. I love my country. I'm not selfish enough to put a few bucks ahead of my country and every other person in it.
I enjoy having my liberty guaranteed, I love that my kids will be able to get quality education. I love the fact that I can go to bed at night knowing that I'm safe. And while you sit their equating taxation to rape, there are actual rape victims out there who's only protection is the government funded police force you don't want to fund.
That is why I don't move. I recognize my country ain't perfect, but I will do anything to ensure it remains a pretty good one. Paying taxes is a civic duty, it's the price we pay to live in an advanced nation. But I'll pay it, gladly.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, Kalaron, The United Providences Of Perland
We win though. So we win.
Human society can not exist without taxation..? Like, we'd crumble back to small 20 person groups. Each person putting in a little to get large benefits for everyone has, as I've stated earlier, happened for millenniums, and is likely one of the reasons we developed our concepts of nations/tribes.
It's complicated. Some Scots simply have a loyalty to the British state and want to remain part of it. Some think Scotland cant survive on its own. Some think Scotland could but we'd be worse off if we left. Some wanted change within the UK.
That all sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland
Post self-deleted by Neo-Icelandic Commonwealth.
Jesus Christ you have Stockholm Syndrome. It's strong in your case
The justification for taxes is that if you don't pay them you don't get to live in the land owned by the state because the state is an organisation of people who take money from you and in return build sh!t and maintain institutions. If you don't like it feel free to run away from the state's jurisdiction, revolt, or be placed into a confined space for increasingly long lengths of time.
The justification for rape doesn't exist because it's a heinous act of physical and mental torture.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, Yukona
You are so far right it physically hurts.
Nuremgard, Jaslandia
I can definitely say that the flipping of Sul's flag has done nothing to help me distinguish between posts by him or Kal.
I petition the great people of this region to end this charade! Their flags must be made the polar opposites of one another lest they slowly merge into one person and lose their individuality altogether!
Nuremgard, Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland
Thank you! I second this.
They both say either the same thing or post a thing agreeing with another thing the other one wrote so they're pretty much the same entity it's fine.
Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland
"Really, do come in. It's lovely in the Isles right now. Perfect time for a visit."
Jaslandia, The United Providences Of Perland
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