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Region: The Thaecian Senate

History

A. Nay

B. Aye

C. Aye

Aye to all except A

Nay to A

Amendment A: Nay

Amendment B: Aye

Amendment D: Aye

Results:

Amendment A: Failed

Amendment B: Passed

Amendment D: Passed

Senators, we have begun voting on the Procedures for the Organisation of Constitutional Conventions Act as amended.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1525282

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Results:

Aye (6) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap Sculgief

Nay (1) Toerana V

Abstain (0)

The bill has passed and will be sent to the House.

[spoiler=Speaker]

Marvinville[/spoiler]

Senators, at request of the Foreign Affairs Minister, we have begun debate on the Repeal of the Thaecia-Southfield Peace Accords.

Treaty: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1288458

Levantx

No opinion of this: Southfield is dead so we don't need to worry about them.

Post self-deleted by Pap Sculgief.

Completely agree. Southfield is dead and this has no real effect any more. I encourage all Senators to vote aye, so we can quickly repeal this old ineffective treaty. Let get through this quickly

I second Sen. Antenion in that I hold no strong feelings on this.

No reason to keep it, sooo

Lets get this to vote

Senators, we have begun voting on the Repeal of the Thaecia-Southfield Peace Accords.

Treaty: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1288458

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Results:

Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap Sculgief Toerana V

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

The Repeal of the Thaecia-Southfield Peace Accords has passed.

[spoiler=Prime Minister and Foreign Affairs Minister]

The Islamic Country Of Honour

Hulldom[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun voting on whether to debate Senator Toerana V's motion

Levantx, Toerana V

How can I even know whether or not we should debate the Honourable Senator's motion when the Chairman has not presented the motion to the Senate...

Toerana V

Cerdenia wrote:How can I even know whether or not we should debate the Honourable Senator's motion when the Chairman has not presented the motion to the Senate...

Awkward

The Motion:

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1525017

I'm obviously all for this, and I'm happy to answer any questions people may have about the motion.

Indian Genius

Nay

Indian Genius, Sevae

Chair Ashlawn, I sponsor Andy to speak on this motion

Andusre, Indian Genius

Toerana V wrote:Chair Ashlawn, I sponsor Andy to speak on this motion

Not allowed, no debate going on currently.

Indian Genius

The only real reasoning given in the motion is that the region currently under occupation is old, however if one has time to look at the age of a region, the activity should logically speaking aso be a factor to take in consideration, by which standards the region would already be near dead. My vote is NAY.

Indian Genius

I agree with Dendrobium's points. I am against this proposal.

Indian Genius

Results:

The motion has failed.

Senators, we have begun the confirmation hearing of Taungu for Home Affairs Minister.

[spoiler=Prime Minister]

The Islamic Country Of Honour[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Taungu, Indian Genius

so tell us the usual stuff, u good for this job why?

Taungu, Andusre, Indian Genius, Brototh, The Islamic Country Of Honour, Marvinville

blah blah blah full support for Taungu for HAM, can my assistant get my coffee pls?

Taungu, Indian Genius

Taungu is probably currently the person most fit for this job, but I would still like to ask the candidate what groundbreaking innovations or imporovements are you planning on bringing to the HAM (as is pretty much tradition at this point)?

Taungu, Indian Genius

Taungu has my full support. I'm confident that they will do an excellent job as HAM.

Taungu, Indian Genius

Thank you Senators for having me back for a different type of confirmation hearing this time around ;)

Before I get into what I am to say, I'd like to say that I am grateful for the chance to serve in Thaecia's executive and for the faith the Prime Minister has in my abilities. Thank you and now, onto my plan for the Home Affairs Ministry and your questions!

Recruitment

One of the primary goals for the coming term is activity and excitement. To that end I want to change how we treat recruitment, especially manual recruitment, from a chore with only a slim potential glee of a recruit to an exciting endeavour for all. First of all, manual recruitment was really successful in raising our population and members from the beginning of October to the end of November with multiple manual recruiters working before people lost interest. To make manual recruitment both exciting and tangible, I intend to have it so sending out a to-be-determined number of recruitment TGs (currently looking at roughly 20-25 or so) gives the recruiter a "ticket", which at the end of a week will be pulled in a lottery like event, with more recruitment telegrams resulting in more tickets to increase one's chances to win a prize in the lottery. If your ticket gets chosen, by a random number generator for fairness, you will have the opportunity to take your pick of a couple prize options, where the possible options could include among other possibilities; changing my profile picture for a week, making a post in the Announcements channel, making a special poll for Thaecia, and other similar prizes!

Integration

Another primary focus for this upcoming term will be providing more tools and opportunities to help newcomers find their way in the region. While I am happy with what I have seen of the continuous running of the on-site Welcome Team (special shoutout to [nation=noflag]Zon island[/nation] and [nation=noflag]Nova Anglicum[/nation] <3 ), as President Brototh and Senator Toerana V have both mentioned, we do not have much of a support system for newcomers on the Discord. To that, I am in agreement with the President and the Senator, as beyond some first greetings and asks to join the World Assembly, newcomers are left to their own. Perhaps one of the best ways to integrate is through the community, so I will aim to have a group willing to message a newcomer, whereupon the welcomer will say "Hi!", give a brief run down of the most active channels, make note of upcoming activities such as any elections or perhaps Culture Ministry games happening soon, and offer to answer any questions they have. At least for the start of this program, I will keep track of any newcomers, as I get pinged whenever someone joins the server, posting up the newcomers and letting welcomers message who they want and cross them off the welcome list.

Nonetheless, another aspect to integration is ensuring that newcomers can find out what opportunities Thaecia has, both in the legislative and executive terms. For that, we have long relied on some great, but now out of date factbooks by Andusre, which I will look to revamp, consolidate, and overhaul to serve as a step-by-step handbook to the region.

Archival History

A more secondary focus of this term will be noting down the histories of the various positions and important factbooks of Thaecia, providing an accessible archive for this information. To this, I have already created some factbooks that have not yet been published of the legislative history before I had known of this nomination based on chronological lists made by [nation=noflag]Marvinville[/nation] many months before now alongside the Congressional Voting History overview that I had created during my time as Electoral Commissioner!

Citizenship

Citizenship reform has been a topic long discussed and spoken about since the general elections in October of last year, and while the present system is typically sufficient when in close cooperation between the Prime Minister, Home Affairs Minister, Electoral Commissioner, and Secretary of Defence, improvements could certainly be seen. Having served as the Electoral Commissioner for the past seven months, where I had to check citizenships constantly, I am eager to engage in discussions with the Prime Minister to explore how citizenship could be better adapted to the new reality of a militarily-engaged region.

Present Departments

Otherwise, while I have not yet had the chance to adequately assess the inner workings of the Home Affairs Ministry, from my first glances and discussions with the last Minister, I believe that the present departments of the Citizenship Verification Team as well as the Data and Statistics Team are running smoothly. Nonetheless, I will not stray away form changing up the present departments should I believe that they have fallen past their intended purpose or could be streamlined in another manner.

Concluding Words

And those are the present goals! I find it worth it to bear in mind js that what is mentioned above is not set in stone and any opportunities and possibilities that come up during my term will be explored! These are guidelines for myself and the ministry overall on what I aim to cover and achieve. If you have any questions, I welcome any and all follow-ups! ❤️

This post was definitely not written out at 3 am eastern last night and then accidentally not posted, so if anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask for any clarifications :P

[spoiler=[nation]Cerdenia[/nation] - R1]

Thank you for your sophisticated question. While I certainly was caught off guard by the offer to serve as Home Affairs Minister, I believe that I have the necessary qualities and experience to serve in the position. As mentioned earlier, for the past seven months I have served as the Electoral Commissioner, my very first formal position in Thaecia, in which I had maintained and reformed the position and its duties in a cohesive, comprehensive manner. I believe the skills of management and hard work that I had undertaken in my time as Electoral Commissioner will be applied to the Home Affairs Ministry with veracity and engagement.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=[nation]Dendrobium[/nation] - R1]

I would say that the plan to implement a lottery to make manual recruitment an exciting prospect, the Discord Welcome Team, and potentially standardizing the layout of governmental releases are my most exciting prospects, but the other proposals and opportunities discussed in the text above are just as exciting!

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Senators][nation]Antenion[/nation]

[nation]Ashlawn[/nation]

[nation]Cerdenia[/nation]

[nation]Dendrobium[/nation]

[nation]Ermica[/nation]

[nation]Pap Sculgief[/nation]

[nation]Toerana V[/nation][/spoiler]

Antenion, Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V, Zon Island, The Islamic Country Of Honour, Dendrobium, Marvinville, Nova Anglicum

Senators, we have begun voting on the nomination of Taungu for Home Affairs Minister.

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Aye

Indian Genius

Aye

Indian Genius

Aye

Indian Genius

Aye

Indian Genius

Aye

Indian Genius

Results:

Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap Sculgief Toerana V

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

Taungu has been confirmed as Home Affairs Minister.

[spoiler=Prime Minister]

The Islamic Country Of Honour[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun debate on the Military Commission Act (2020) Reform Act | LR 040 Amendments.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1500389

Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V, Zon Island

cool bill heard the second author is pretty cool too

Indian Genius

Brototh wrote:cool bill heard the second author is pretty cool too

Idk about this Brototh guy tho, seems kinda sketchy

Indian Genius, Brototh

Seems decent. I don't really have a problem with it

Indian Genius, Toerana V, Zon Island

All looks fine to me. Small Amendment though, because of the pejorative and degrading connotation and often still use of the (neo)colonial word "natives", I propose it to be changed. This is not a breaking point on my vote, but I do believe it may eventually make the bill have a better quality and a higher sense of professionalism.

[spoiler=Amendment A]

Changes Article II - Creates Article V - Anti-Griefing Policy to say:

Section II - Operations which grief occupied regions shall be defined as operations where acts are conducted harming the natives inhabitants of a region in a way which is permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the intentional ejection or banjection of natives inhabitants of occupied regions.

Section III - An native inhabitant is defined as a resident of an occupied region who is not residing in the region for raiding/defending purposes.

[/spoiler]

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Dendrobium wrote:All looks fine to me. Small Amendment though, because of the pejorative and degrading connotation and often still use of the (neo)colonial word "natives", I propose it to be changed. This is not a breaking point on my vote, but I do believe it may eventually make the bill have a better quality and a higher sense of professionalism.

[spoiler=Amendment A]

Changes Article II - Creates Article V - Anti-Griefing Policy to say:

Section II - Operations which grief occupied regions shall be defined as operations where acts are conducted harming the natives inhabitants of a region in a way which is permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the intentional ejection or banjection of natives inhabitants of occupied regions.

Section III - An native inhabitant is defined as a resident of an occupied region who is not residing in the region for raiding/defending purposes.

[/spoiler]

I appreciate the mentality, but native is a term used by NationStates itself, that of which we cannot change. It is also heavily used in gameplay and R/D, so even if it weren't a gameside issue, it would cause an extreme amount of issues.

Inhabitants could be argued to apply to any and all residents of the region, which works paralyse any occupations, as defender nations that try to seize the delegacy back are ejected every update. The term natives shows the difference between defenders and your everyday nation of the region.

TL DR- Opposed for being a gameside issue. Will also create confusion and potential loophole opening. Additionally, would paralyse occupations, and probably liberations if you can argue that.

Indian Genius, Toerana V, Dendrobium

Brototh wrote:- - snip - -

Fair points. In that case I repeal Amendment A.

Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V

I have added an additional article. These are cosmetic changes. We have adopted an ancient Greek theme and it would be well appreciated if we could put it into law. Right now it is kind of a small grey area if having a different name is entirely legal, so to help out our RP and fun parameters, we would well appreciate it if it could be changed.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1500389

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Brototh wrote:I appreciate the mentality, but native is a term used by NationStates itself, that of which we cannot change. It is also heavily used in gameplay and R/D, so even if it weren't a gameside issue, it would cause an extreme amount of issues.

Inhabitants could be argued to apply to any and all residents of the region, which works paralyse any occupations, as defender nations that try to seize the delegacy back are ejected every update. The term natives shows the difference between defenders and your everyday nation of the region.

TL DR- Opposed for being a gameside issue. Will also create confusion and potential loophole opening. Additionally, would paralyse occupations, and probably liberations if you can argue that.

The loopholes wouldn't exist because "inhabitant" would be defined in the act the exact same way as "Native" was. The person bringing the case to the court would have to successfully argue that a term that is not defined anywhere else in the law actually means something else in the context of the legislation, despite its meaning being clearly defined. I'd honestly like to see them try.

The term native doesn't have a set definition in gameplay, and many GPers argue about what really counts as a native all the time. Assigning a different term, like inhabitant, removes all the baggage associated with the relatively controversial term, while serving the exact same purpose.

Brototh wrote:I have added an additional article. These are cosmetic changes. We have adopted an ancient Greek theme and it would be well appreciated if we could put it into law. Right now it is kind of a small grey area if having a different name is entirely legal, so to help out our RP and fun parameters, we would well appreciate it if it could be changed.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1500389

Opposed, it's cosmetic. No need to define in the law cosmetic changes. If the positions don't mean anything in terms of command structure, then there is no reason to define them.

Onto my issues with these amendments in general:

Section III:

A & B - Why inform the Speaker of the House if they aren't allowed to inform the house of the op until it is over? Furthermore, the law requires the speaker is informed at the start, and then again at the end to *then* tell the entire house. Either inform the Speaker *and* house at the end, or at the beginning. Don't mix and match as it just makes for a messy situation for the Speaker, who knows OPSEC information for no particular reason. If this amendment is meant to make it easier to conduct OPSEC operations, then telling someone who has no use for the information is kinda pointless.

Support for Section V

Article II

First of all, props for including an Anti Griefing policy.

Section I - I understand the reasoning for wanting the ability to prosecute military members for actions taken in other militaries, but it infringes on citizens rights. I dislike the idea, even as a moralistic defender, that someone can be handed a severe punishment by the court for actions taken outside of Thaecia. This should be dealt with internally, not by the courts.

Section II - Personally, I want more examples of grieifing to ensure that if an Operation breaks this section, those in charge can be prosecuted and not hide behind the lack of proper definition.

Personally: Removal "intentional ejection or banjection" and replace with "ejection or banjection." In a text based browser game, intent is very hard to gauge, and it should be made completely illegal. With the definition of native, it's very clear that the ejection of nations in the region prior to the occupation is illegal, reducing the likelihood of confusion over sleepers. I'd rather a sleeper was left alone out of caution than a native ejected because there wasn't any.

Section III - As said before, I support the switch to "inhabitant".

Section IV - I am iffy on the "similarly undesirable individuals." Does this mean fascist? Does this mean blacklisted? Does this mean individuals banned in Thaecia alone? It's unclear. I'd rather the individual clause was scrapped, in favour of just fascist regions otherwise every right leaning region could be at risk of being invaded.

Section V - Support

Section VI - Include legal responsibility for the Sec. Def. If they don't withdraw (military wide). If we are going to make participating in a griefing operation for another military grounds for prosecution, then not withdrawing once participation in a griefing op military wide should be held on the same level, if not a more severe one.

Article IV Amendments:

I dislike the idea of legislating anything cosmetic into an act. If the role has no meaningful impact, it shouldn't be legislated and should be left to Thaempirial command to mess with.

I can write up proper amendments for these changes I want to later, if someone else doesn't want to do them for me~

Indian Genius

Toerana V wrote:[spoiler]The loopholes wouldn't exist because "inhabitant" would be defined in the act the exact same way as "Native" was. The person bringing the case to the court would have to successfully argue that a term that is not defined anywhere else in the law actually means something else in the context of the legislation, despite its meaning being clearly defined. I'd honestly like to see them try.

The term native doesn't have a set definition in gameplay, and many GPers argue about what really counts as a native all the time. Assigning a different term, like inhabitant, removes all the baggage associated with the relatively controversial term, while serving the exact same purpose.

Opposed, it's cosmetic. No need to define in the law cosmetic changes. If the positions don't mean anything in terms of command structure, then there is no reason to define them.

Onto my issues with these amendments in general:

Section III:

A & B - Why inform the Speaker of the House if they aren't allowed to inform the house of the op until it is over? Furthermore, the law requires the speaker is informed at the start, and then again at the end to *then* tell the entire house. Either inform the Speaker *and* house at the end, or at the beginning. Don't mix and match as it just makes for a messy situation for the Speaker, who knows OPSEC information for no particular reason. If this amendment is meant to make it easier to conduct OPSEC operations, then telling someone who has no use for the information is kinda pointless.

Support for Section V

Article II

First of all, props for including an Anti Griefing policy.

Section I - I understand the reasoning for wanting the ability to prosecute military members for actions taken in other militaries, but it infringes on citizens rights. I dislike the idea, even as a moralistic defender, that someone can be handed a severe punishment by the court for actions taken outside of Thaecia. This should be dealt with internally, not by the courts.

Section II - Personally, I want more examples of grieifing to ensure that if an Operation breaks this section, those in charge can be prosecuted and not hide behind the lack of proper definition.

Personally: Removal "intentional ejection or banjection" and replace with "ejection or banjection." In a text based browser game, intent is very hard to gauge, and it should be made completely illegal. With the definition of native, it's very clear that the ejection of nations in the region prior to the occupation is illegal, reducing the likelihood of confusion over sleepers. I'd rather a sleeper was left alone out of caution than a native ejected because there wasn't any.

Section III - As said before, I support the switch to "inhabitant".

Section IV - I am iffy on the "similarly undesirable individuals." Does this mean fascist? Does this mean blacklisted? Does this mean individuals banned in Thaecia alone? It's unclear. I'd rather the individual clause was scrapped, in favour of just fascist regions otherwise every right leaning region could be at risk of being invaded.

Section V - Support

Section VI - Include legal responsibility for the Sec. Def. If they don't withdraw (military wide). If we are going to make participating in a griefing operation for another military grounds for prosecution, then not withdrawing once participation in a griefing op military wide should be held on the same level, if not a more severe one.

Article IV Amendments:

I dislike the idea of legislating anything cosmetic into an act. If the role has no meaningful impact, it shouldn't be legislated and should be left to Thaempirial command to mess with.

I can write up proper amendments for these changes I want to later, if someone else doesn't want to do them for me~[/spoiler]

The term native is better because it is much more commonly used. The term inhabitant is, as far as I can see, not used at all, if it is used, it isn't commonly used. The common usage of native allows us to build a definition on a commonly used basis, rather than creating a new word in and of itself. It is likely that, when talking to other regions, we would probably say native anyway, as colloquialism, or at least for better understanding and communication between each other. I will argue that assigning a new term inhabitant does not make the bill better, in fact, it makes it worse, due to the lack of use of this term.

I could be persuaded to agree to the term inhabitant, should it also be coupled with a long and full definition. However, only changing it, without providing a definition beforehand, undoubtedly makes the military even harder to understand than it were before.

I will talk about cosmetic issues later on.

I personally would prefer if the Speaker of the House was not informed at all. I absolutely agree with you, it makes no sense. Unfortunately, the House of Commons does not understand the meaning of operation security. The House has no power over the military once the SoDf is confirmed, again- true. I have had many long and arduous debates with pacifists and MPs alike. For some reason, they are fixated that if a military has to exist, the House must be told. Many Senators here share the same sentient, for reasons that I personally do not understand.

I would absolutely love it if the Speaker would be taken out entirely, but unfortunately, the Senate will have a hard time passing it, let alone the House. I don't have any reasonable belief it could pass the House with it taken out, and I doubt it would be above the bottom of the docket, to be honest.

I don't know where that part in Section I came from, write an amendment B and take it out. Agreed

If you would like more examples of griefing, you can go ahead and add them. But you seem to believe, from our previous experiences, that changing the WFE is griefing. So forgive me if I am skeptical to see what you would like to add, considering we have very different R/D viewpoints. As far as I can see, all the bases are covered "changes that are permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the intentional ejection or banjection of natives of occupied regions." already in the bill.

I could get behind removing the intent clause, however, I think what was seen here was not knowing they were a native to the region. Perhaps it can be amended with a clause about undoing the ban of natives as soon as it is discovered, if applicable. I think that would possibly be hard to apply in a real situation, but at the same time, a small accident is not enough to end an entire operation in my opinion, especially if the issue in hand is undone.

Switch to inhabitant already addressed

The term "similarly undesirable individuals" is very vague, I agree. I think it means extremist political regions, although that alone is very hard to understand. A change to fascist could work, because I don't see us refounding any non-fash in the first place, to be honest. I would still prefer if it could be changed to have more examples of undesirable individuals. Perhaps it means people with significant OOC issues? I don't know- in all honesty, I did not write this section, and at first glance it looked good. A change to simply just fascist and perhaps extremist would suit me well, personally.

I don't understand what you mean. There is responsibility to withdraw.

"Where the Thaempirial Army has taken part in an operation which griefs a region, the organisation will be required to withdraw from the operation in the timeliest possible manner." - the Organisation as a whole must withdraw

"Should the Secretary of Defence be made aware of griefing by a Thaecian or collaborating foreign military member, but fails to withdraw from the operation, this will be considered grounds for recall of the Secretary of Defence." - they can be recalled if they choose not to withdraw- in a text-based browser game, as you said, it is very hard to prosecute apart from impeachment and ejection, so there isn't exactly more "punishments" we can give to add to legal responsibility, and this certainly does not warrant a ban

"A Thaempirial Army member who defies the order to withdraw from the operation in question shall be expelled from the Thaempirial Army and shall never be readmitted." - individuals too must withdraw or shall be expelled from the Army.

The first sentence alone shows the whole organisation must withdraw, and if only the SoDf withdraws, then it is a very easy argument in court that "My client, the organisation, could not have known the organisation was griefing or supposed to withdraw as the SoDf did not inform them. It is their responsibility to inform them, as it would be impossible for them to withdraw otherwise. Thus your honours, the Secretary of Defence has violated the law by making it impossible for the Thaempirial Army to carry out their duties. The law also states that the Secretary of Defence must withdraw from the operation, yet the Thaempirial Army did not withdraw due to their own negligence."

Not withdrawing is already more severe. Instead of just simply pulling out "sorry bros, we messed up, wont r/d with them anymore", you get recalled and/or expelled.

The issue we have here with the cosmetic issues is we believe that it may be illegal to change the names. We want to change the names for a bit of fun. As you can see, there are still the same number of ranks in the Army, so I don't see the issue. The names are already pre-defined in law, so you can argue changing them is illegal. Currently we have to use the argument "well it corresponds to this rank exactly / they have both ranks at the same time, this one is just higher / etc", to find loopholes in the law and skirt around it. This is not something we like doing, for obvious reasons, especially when all we are trying to do is have a bit of fun and try out some Greek theming.

Indian Genius, Toerana V

At the request of the author the above bill has been tabled

Senators, we have begun debate on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1528721

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V

Ashlawn wrote:At the request of the author the above bill has been tabled

Senators, we have begun debate on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).

"Ok brototh's bill is tabled. Moving onto brototh's bill"

My arguments for are listed in the preamble. I will be happy to provide extra info to Senators in private GC.

RE: Preamble

Noticing that Thaecia does not have a procedure on foreign interregional espionage,

Understanding that spying on Thaecia is already illegal, however spying for Thaecia is not,

Believing that this could create a situation where Thaecian officials or private citizens attempt to find loopholes, creating an interregional incident,

Believing that spying on one's allies is wrong, and create an extreme level of distrust in our relationship and of Thaecia as a whole,

Motivated to encourage other regions to create relations with us with the assurance that they shall not be spied on,

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Saved by the bell Brototh :P

As for the bill in question....

To start, I applaud the intention, I just feel like it comes with too much baggage and unknown variables.

Speaking as someone who has an.... interesting past with "leaking" (I'm about a year into a 2 yr ban for "leaking" the Lazerene jump point) I'm hesitant to support this, especially because of the lack of severity scaling in the bill, it jumps everything up to treason, which feels excessive.

Furthermore, it brings it back round to the question of intent. Say, purely hypothetically, I leaked an upcoming article for the Rejected Times for whatever reason, but I claim I didn't join TRT to leak and commit espionage, is my sentence more severe? How do you judge if I'm being truthful? It feels messy to me, but I suppose that's what the court is for.

Onto the acts taken by the government.....

The cynic in me says that it may be necessary for the Thaecian government to commit espionage against an allied/embassy partner.... especially if we've caught wind of something unpleasant going on behind the scenes. While this is highly unlikely to happen (with Thaecia aligning itself from long standing, respected regions such as TRR & TNP), I feel like it is a route we need to keep open and not lock behind a treason charge.

When it comes to OOC concerns... while not particularly relevant to IC Gameplay, which this is intended to cover, it may result in some overlap. Leaking, per se, may be necessary to provide administration with quick, up to date and relevant information about moderation concerns that have occurred behind the closed doors of another region. This is, strictly speaking, leaking, however unlikely it is to happen. It throws up too many unknown variables that could result in a messy overlap between IC issues and OOC issues, and that'd we'd have to trust the PM and Court to not prosecute over that specific kind of "leaking".

I'm definitely just being a cynical guy, probably clutching at straws here, but those are a few of my concerns for this relatively small bill.

Overall, I'm in favour of scrapping it entirely.

Indian Genius

Toerana V wrote:[spoiler]To start, I applaud the intention, I just feel like it comes with too much baggage and unknown variables.

Speaking as someone who has an.... interesting past with "leaking" (I'm about a year into a 2 yr ban for "leaking" the Lazerene jump point) I'm hesitant to support this, especially because of the lack of severity scaling in the bill, it jumps everything up to treason, which feels excessive.

Furthermore, it brings it back round to the question of intent. Say, purely hypothetically, I leaked an upcoming article for the Rejected Times for whatever reason, but I claim I didn't join TRT to leak and commit espionage, is my sentence more severe? How do you judge if I'm being truthful? It feels messy to me, but I suppose that's what the court is for.

Onto the acts taken by the government.....

The cynic in me says that it may be necessary for the Thaecian government to commit espionage against an allied/embassy partner.... especially if we've caught wind of something unpleasant going on behind the scenes. While this is highly unlikely to happen (with Thaecia aligning itself from long standing, respected regions such as TRR & TNP), I feel like it is a route we need to keep open and not lock behind a treason charge.

When it comes to OOC concerns... while not particularly relevant to IC Gameplay, which this is intended to cover, it may result in some overlap. Leaking, per se, may be necessary to provide administration with quick, up to date and relevant information about moderation concerns that have occurred behind the closed doors of another region. This is, strictly speaking, leaking, however unlikely it is to happen. It throws up too many unknown variables that could result in a messy overlap between IC issues and OOC issues, and that'd we'd have to trust the PM and Court to not prosecute over that specific kind of "leaking".

I'm definitely just being a cynical guy, probably clutching at straws here, but those are a few of my concerns for this relatively small bill.

Overall, I'm in favour of scrapping it entirely.[/spoiler]

I don't think that leaking an issue of TRT is a good example. There's a difference between committing an offence and being banned for it. I very much so doubt that the High Court would ban you for a TRT article leak. As you said, that's what the courts are for. It could be a good idea to try and define severity in the bill- I think this could be potentially pretty hard, though. You're the one with the issues with it though, I assume you're also the one with the ideas on what you'd prefer to see better.

This is a fair point- but at the same time, I don't have my doors open to spying on another region because "oh something bad is going on maybe". I much prefer the route of talking to them or some people around them, if not that region directly, diplomatically. If we jump straight to "Welp, guess we have to spy on them" without trying to talk first, then the fact we signed a treaty with them, ratified it, and probably got embassies at the same time, is nothing short of spectacular. I can't see once in my time that we will need to spy on another region because we think something bad might be going on. If we hear about something bad, it'll always be our first action to take a look without spying- because that's entirely possible, join their Discord, see if it's popping off- and to talk to them. If it comes to the point where we think "we have to SPY on them to find out what's going on", then by that point, we shouldn't have relations with them.

Up to date moderation concerns are nothing to do with this bill. If an OOC offence has been committed, OOC is always above IC, this bill, our Court, our Constitution, is not relevant. Regardless, if another team has moderation issues and they are providing us with quick up to date information, this isn't spying. They're consensually giving us the information. If we spying on them to find out what's going on because they won't tell us about their OOC issues, that's again an OOC issue with that region and with us as a whole- thus this bill is not relevant.

I'll change this section: "and/or transferring information deemed classified or confidential by the region and/or organisation without permission from that region and/or organisation". Hopefully, that should clear any OOC moderation issues you might have, because then it would certainly prove they can transfer "classified or confidential" info and vice versa. I of course don't expect OOC moderation teams to hand out OOC moderation stuff to non moderators, hence where the classified/confidential bit comes in alongside the permission part.

This is a good step for our region as a whole on an FA standpoint and should not be tossed aside.

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Brototh wrote:snip

The changing of the section definitely removes my concerns about OOC moderation. I can just envision someone in the future using this act as a "gotcha" moment for someone who shares moderation concerns with moderation.

But you make some fair points, the severity would be a pain in the ass to define, 'suppose I've got to trust the court on this one.

Indian Genius, Brototh

Toerana V wrote:The changing of the section definitely removes my concerns about OOC moderation. I can just envision someone in the future using this act as a "gotcha" moment for someone who shares moderation concerns with moderation.

But you make some fair points, the severity would be a pain in the ass to define, 'suppose I've got to trust the court on this one.

BOWSHOT and CINEMA agree on something?

This is a historic day

Dendro write the time and date

Indian Genius, Toerana V

Bill is good so long as it does not restrict upon a citizen's right to do their own espionage thing with non-allied regions. Since this appears to be the case, it has my support.

Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V

It seems good to me. No complaints.

Toerana V

Senators, we have begun voting on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1528721

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Brototh, Toerana V

Results:

Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap Sculgief Toerana V

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

The bill has passed and will be sent to the House.

[spoiler=Speaker]

Marvinville[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun debate on the Assembly of Roleplay Act (2021).

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1524817

Toerana V

I should be a Senator at this rate I write every bill on the floor

Toerana V

Brototh wrote:I should be a Senator at this rate I write every bill on the floor

Wanna switch jobs?

jkjkjkjkjk

... unless? 🤭😳

Brototh, Toerana V

Pretty sure everyone already knows my stance on this. RP legislation is a great way to get people involved and keep people active. I will be voting Aye and suggest all Senators to do so as well.

Brototh

While I don't believe this is necessarily a bad idea, the amount of work put into something purely done for roleplay purposes is a bit worrying considering I haven't been seeing much demand for this. I don't see a lot of citizens excited or wanting to participate on this project, so knowing it'll add new work for the Electoral Commission, which already has stuff to do pretty constantly, is a bit worrying.

Brototh, Marvinville

Cerdenia wrote:While I don't believe this is necessarily a bad idea, the amount of work put into something purely done for roleplay purposes is a bit worrying considering I haven't been seeing much demand for this. I don't see a lot of citizens excited or wanting to participate on this project, so knowing it'll add new work for the Electoral Commission, which already has stuff to do pretty constantly, is a bit worrying.

That's a fair point- something I didn't really think about. However I don't think this is exactly a massive amount of work, considering it's only one leader election every 4 months. It happens at the same time as the Chair/Speaker stuff as well, which I think certainly makes it much easier to run. I also think because this is a dormant system, it doesn't really need to gather loads of support and excitement in one go for it. It can come and go whenever something is written, without really causing any kind of hassle.

I think it's very good for passing the RP legislation that we have missed out on over time, as I explained before, the work load doesn't really go up, and we can both get the RP stuff done and proper IC business can still be prioritised as well. I think there is some kind of interest, for a long time people have wanted the climate emergency bill, and I think once we show we can pass bills like this now, people will get more involved- especially newcomers, this is a great way for them to start to get involved in legislating as they then work their way up to Congress itself.

Dendrobium

I agree with Cerd. I'm not a huge fan of RP legislation and I think that it's usually a waste of time unless there are a large number of Thaecians requesting it.

I slightly agree with both Dendro and Cerd here. RP legislation is a great way to get newer members involved and getting good experience of how legislature works here, however I do feel that this is a lot of effort for something that I feel isn’t the most pressing matter for the region. The HAM deals with many things that are more important than RPL, and having to put in a significant amount of effort in RPL isn’t the best idea. I’m fine with RPL, as long as we ensure that it doesn’t take up too much time and effort from the government. I also want there to be significant demand for the RPL, because I don’t want this to be another situation with a good idea in theory, that doesn’t work in practice. I’m sure if we do it right that won’t happen, but I want to make sure that it is something that will benefit the region rather than take away from the region

Something to note here when talking "taking up precious time" is that if anything this bill would save that precious time from the Legislative. As a matter of fact, right now RP legislation would have to pass through both Chambers of Congress to pass, taking up at least 36 hours in each; and if not that it would end up cluttering the dockets. Besides that the task of the HAM and EC is very minimal. So, similarly to what Brototh said, this bill would allow for more activity and more time for all parties involved.

On the topic of interest in something like the Assembly of Roleplay, it is a very pessimistic standpoint to simply say "no-one wants this, it won't have anything to do". Emphasizing on "pessimistic" and not simply "critical". We did not know how active the Military would become, simply that some people were interested, and look at it now. Here we have a similar situation where some are interested and some are not. There is only one way to find out how much activity it will actually get.

Lastly, I would like to give some more attention to what chances this bill creates. Previously the point of getting people involved was mentioned. I believe this isn't something to glance over and then forget. We know many people are interested in geting involved in the Thaecian government but dont have the courage or oppurtunity to do so. This would give them that chance. Next to that, some complain about the region having become boring with nothing to do and everything going wrong; what better way to solve exactly that? Not to mention, the Assembly of Roleplay can be a great oppurtunity to bring attention to IRL-focused matters which can be brought together with the attempts of the President to get people involved in the WA, which does similar things.

To me, there is no question here, and, repeating myself, I urge everyone to vote in favour of this bill.

Brototh

Ermica wrote:I agree with Cerd. I'm not a huge fan of RP legislation and I think that it's usually a waste of time unless there are a large number of Thaecians requesting it.

I don't think this is a waste of time at all- I think Cerdenia makes a fair point about the Electoral Commissioner, but considering that it happens at the same time as the House/Senate leadership elections, I don't think this puts any kind of workload on them. However, this is something that, as Dendrobium said, would save time from the legislature. It doesn't matter if you're not a huge fan of RP Legislation- it's not a secret that I'm not- this bill would both allow people that are interested in it to get it done, and Congress to get our own, more pressing IC matters done.

Pap Sculgief wrote:I slightly agree with both Dendro and Cerd here. RP legislation is a great way to get newer members involved and getting good experience of how legislature works here, however I do feel that this is a lot of effort for something that I feel isn’t the most pressing matter for the region. The HAM deals with many things that are more important than RPL, and having to put in a significant amount of effort in RPL isn’t the best idea. I’m fine with RPL, as long as we ensure that it doesn’t take up too much time and effort from the government. I also want there to be significant demand for the RPL, because I don’t want this to be another situation with a good idea in theory, that doesn’t work in practice. I’m sure if we do it right that won’t happen, but I want to make sure that it is something that will benefit the region rather than take away from the region
Well, as stated before, this wouldn't really require a significant amount of effort at all- I'll say it from a former Senate Chair, put the bill up, wait 24hr, vote on it, wait 24hr, repeat. With a system that would only have the Assembly active when there is a bill available, it's not even like it has to be a constant thing- so I don't think burnout is something that will really exist in this scenario. And I've already made my position on EC workload clear.

I think over time we have seen a significant demand for RPL. We've seen more and more interest over time in things like the climate bill, LGBTQ rights bills, even the yogurt viscosity bill, to an extent. It's definitely not a thing that sees one huge massive wave of activity- hence why the Assembly remains dormant until something new comes along. But I 100% guarantee you, with this bill or not, there will be a period of time where it is popular again.

This would be very, very good for the region. There's honestly no cons here- it allows us to try out new things that have seen more popularity recently, like unicameralism and a citizens' legislature. It allows us to revisit things we previously thought stupid, like RP Legislation. And I think it will certainly help newcomers get involved. Besides, it's always a good look when we can show "Hey look, our region, as a collective, not just like 10 of us, passed a bill protecting LGBTQ rights of Thaecians :3".

Considering the only "time" this "takes away" from Congress is the debate of this bill now and never again, I seriously urge for all Senators to vote AYE on this bill. I am happy to respond to any more concerns.

Pap Sculgief, Dendrobium

Senators, we have begun voting on the Assembly of Roleplay Act (2021).

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1524817

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Brototh, Dendrobium

Aye

Brototh, Dendrobium

Nay

Marvinville

Aye

Brototh, Dendrobium

Aye

#CitizensLegislature

Brototh, Dendrobium

Results:

Aye (4) Antenion Dendrobium Pap Sculgief Toerana V

Nay (2) Cerdenia Ermica

Abstain (1) Ashlawn

The bill has passed and will be sent to the House.

[spoiler=Speaker]

Marvinville[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun debate on the Designated Survivor Act.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1514115

Brototh

This is fine

Brototh

Senators, we have begun voting on the Designated Survivor Act.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1514115

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Ermica (TCU)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)[/spoiler]

Seems kinda dumb but sure

Aye

Results:

Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap Sculgief Toerana V

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

The bill has passed.

Senators, we have begun the confirmation hearing of Armentieux for Election Commissioner.

No Opposition, Full Support

Ashlawn

Good Morning,

Let me begin by saying it is an honor to have this opportunity to speak before you, and to have been nominated by the President to hold such a coveted regional office.

The Office of the Electoral Commissioner is one of great cultural significance and civic importance. Its role in conducting, regulating, and safeguarding Thaecia’s election process is an important root of stability and civility for the region. The E.C. 's current reputation with the region because of that is good and this is directly a result of the dedication shown to the institution by past Commissioners.

My goal is to respect that standing and past work while also taking the opportunity of my appointment to expand the E.C.’s reach and function. My goals are as follows:

[list][*]Create an educational series of regional advertisements promoting voter registration, participation, and candidacy in elections.

[*]Continue the work of my predecessor in standardizing and modernizing the graphics and tools utilized by the Electoral [*]Commission in order to promote efficiency and productivity.

[*]Begin a regular report to the Parliament and people on the business of the E.C., election integrity, and other administrative matters.

[*]Lead new creative efforts to develop and encourage interaction between political candidates and voters beyond the traditional debate.

[*]Be able to develop and reflect on my term with a full report on the Thaecian Electoral System to be delivered to Congress.[/list]

With these goals, and the tremendous trust and confidence placed in me by the President, I hope that you will see my appointment as an opportunity to renew and re-enforce the Electoral Commission for months to come. I ask that you vote ‘yes’ to confirm my appointment and thank you for this time today.

Respectfully,

Armentieux[/I]

[spoiler=Full Remark Record]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E43DY02ndHZteMmRiD-OY6Vf5oniuB1U43pZTlsMOL4/edit?usp=sharing[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Senators]Ashlawn, Antenion, Cerdenia, Dendrobium, Ermica, Pap Sculgief, Toerana V[/spoiler]

Ashlawn, Cerdenia, Indian Genius, Brototh, Toerana V

Senators,

I need not explain to you why this is an excellent nomination. As Actias, he has proved himself time and time again.

I understand any concerns over immediatly nominating a newcomer/returning oldtimer, however I'd like to remind you he was removed from NS due to natural disaster.

I have full trust and confidence in Armen in this position. I am prepared as Armen is to answer any questions you may have.

Ashlawn, Toerana V, Armentieux

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.