Post Archive
Region: The Thaecian Senate
I vote for me
The Bigtopia, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
I also vote for that dude.
The Marconian State, Brototh, The Bigtopia, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
I vote for Cerdenia.
Terentiland
I vote for Titanne
Titanne, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
I am hereby dropping out of the race and switching my vote to Al0neForever. I was mainly running as a joke but I am afraid I might actually win. Under normal circumstances I woulf actually seriously run, however unfortunately I am going on a trip today (27th) and will only come back on the 6th of February, so running the senate would be impossible for me.
I encourage my supporters to also vote for Al0neForever.
Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
In this case, I shall change my vote to myself.
Zon Island, Terentiland
I vote for Titanne.
Titanne, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
And I withdraw from standing for Chairman.
Titanne, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
I vote for Titanne
Titanne, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
Summary of the Votes:
In favor of Chairman Titanne: Titanne, Catlin, Indian Genius, and Asean Nations
In favor of Chairman Al0neForever: Cerdenia, Al0Neforever
In favor of Chairman Cerdenia (dropped out): Brototh
Titanne has achieved a majority and is hereby chosen to be the Senate's next Chairman.
Indian Genius, Titanne, Catlin, Asean Nations, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
Congratulations, Titanne for becomeing the Senate Chair, for a second time.
Titanne, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
We, UNI, thank Titanne for asking for a coalition with us. And, congratulations!
Titanne, Asean Nations, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
OPENING ANNOUNCEMENT
Hello my fellow Senators! Im glad to be back here, and am so glad to be your choice for Chairman. I hope youre all doing well and are ready to get some work done. Now, down to business.
Unfortunately, since the Senate Chair account was griefed, I have no access to either the legislative docket or any of our previous documents. It will take me a bit to draw up my own version, so bear with me as I do that. If you have any legislation you would like to submit, please send it to me now!
Thanks!
I hereby call this session of Congress to order.
Titanne, Chairman of the Senate
[spoiler=Senators]
Al0Neforever[/spoiler]
The Marconian State, Antenion, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Zon Island, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
OPENING OF DEBATE
Item Being Debated: Amendments to L.R. 004
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1312757
Senators, despite the circumstances with the docket, I figured it would be best if we passed our own legislation in the mean time. Al0Neforever has submitted this bill and it is now being put up for debate. You will have 24 hours to debate before I put this bill up for a vote.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Brototh, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
My opinion on this bill is that it should be an open and shut decision. After so many active members of the Unity Party left the region, we simply cant have the clauses detailed here still in place. Well end up with incompetent ministers, Senators and MPs if we force them to choose only one branch of government. For the interests of the region, it is important to remove the clauses mentioned in this bill.
I am all for it and plan to vote aye.
Brototh, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever, Terentiland
I agree on what Chairman Titanne has stated and I also support Senator Al0Neforever's proposal
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Al0Neforever
Titanne has taken the words right out of my mouth. This amendment should stand until we are in stable waters again and we have lots of active members. Until then, I feel that this amendment is neccesary to ensure the activity of Thaecia's ministries and their legislative branches.
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations
Does anyone not agree with this or feel that some more should be added?
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia
Since the leave of a lot of Thaecians, I think this is necessary.
Brototh, Titanne, Al0Neforever
This was one of my election promises, and restores my original bill to it's intended purpose, which I believe is quite necessary after the departure of important members of our community can end up leaving us with a shortage of qualified officials if the current system is kept in place. Plan to vote aye to this one.
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
Wow. This bill has a lot more support than I anticipated, so I will be pushing it to a vote in 4 hours, allowing for Indian Genius and Brototh to voice any thoughts they could have while also not wasting any time.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Brototh, The Bigtopia, Al0Neforever
Afternoon guys, sorry for being so late.
These reforms are necessary, especially for some departments like the RP where we lack qualified residents that are not already in a government position, such as myself. The RP is an excellent example for why we need this law, I personally doubt that the community would verify anyone but myself if my superior Islonia were to permanently resign, say, tomorrow which would of course be impossible without this bill passing as I would never be able to hold the minister position.
This bill could also be utilised in other departments as well, but considering my personal experience in the RP, Im more suited to talk about that.
Planning to vote Aye, hope the rest dont change their mind on this amendment.
Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
Ummmmm 😂😂😂
But in all seriousness, good point.
The Bigtopia
OPENING VOTE
Item Being Voted On: Amendments to L.R. 004
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1312757
Since we have now completed our minimal debating period of 12 hours, I will be opening the vote on this legislation. Once we fulfill our requirements there, we will move on to our next order of business, which unless another Senator submits a more pressing
proposal, will be my bill, The Criminal Hierarchy Act. A reminder that your three voting options are aye, nay and abstain.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Brototh, The Bigtopia, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
My vote on this bill is aye
Brototh, The Bigtopia, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
Aye
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Zon Island
Aye to the bill
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
I vote "Aye"
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
Aye
Zon Island, Al0Neforever
Aye
Brototh, Zon Island, Al0Neforever
aye
Brototh, Al0Neforever
CLOSING VOTE
Item Being Voted On: Amendments to L.R. 004
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1312757
The bill has passed with flying colors, as all Senators have voted in favor. Creckelenney, it should now be added to the Houses docket.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Brototh, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
OPENING OF DEBATE
Item Being Debated: Legislative Restrictions Act
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1312242
With the passing of Senator Al0Neforevers bill, we will move on to this bill, proposed by me. Debate will last for a minimum of 12 hours, but I will extend it as needed if there is a large amount of discussion. Please be civil and courteous when debating.[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Brototh, Asean Nations, Al0Neforever
Since no-one has posted yet, Ill give my reasoning for this bill: it protects the sacred right of the people to due process and a fair trial.
While this bill was created with good intentions for sure, realistically speaking neither of the actions which the bill "criminalises" are a currently even allowed in the first place.
Let me elaborate by citing Article VII Section I Subsection V of our Constitution:
"The right to a due process and a fair and free trial."
Under the "Ex Post Facto Law" scenario created by this bill, the person obviously wouldn't have a "fair and free trial", since the law would be punishing someone for something they did before the thing became illegal, obviously not fair seeing as the person can't really see the future to know it would be illegal.
Under the "Bill of Attainder" scenario there would be no trial at all.
These two scenarios the bill "criminalises" are already unconstitutional, government can't really do either of these two anyway. As such I believe this bill is useless.
Brototh, Asean Nations
For the ex post facto scenario, the word fair is highly debatable, so I feel like it would still be good to clearly establish the limit in that case. Someone will inevitably try to twist the words, so this bill will limit the power of the government and provide citizens protection from unjust persecution.
I do agree with you on the bill of attainder scenario, however.
The bill seems kind of vague and incomplete, while it is rather simple and straight forward I think a lot can be added to this and, as said before with the Bill of Attainder, removed from it as well. It seems like a good idea at heart, and as with the Toxicity bill that went through the House of Commons last term, can prevent things happening again-- however it seems rather useless if someone does "A", and only then we pass a law making "A" illegal, because, well, they still did A.
For anyone who might say it: I know that's how the real world works-- but remember we're in a web game.
And as Cerdenia said, it's impossible to tell if "A" will become illegal, so it would be really unfair to the person who has done A. The government is also quite unlikely to undergo "unjust persecution", at least in my opinion-- because historically Thaecians are known to quite literally revolt and secede when the government does something that the population disagrees with-- of course I don't disagree it's not impossible but in my opinion it just adds to how little we need this bill.
Asean Nations
All fair points, but it seems to me that just because something is unlikely does not mean its impossible. We should be overly cautious rather than just saying oh, thatll never happen.
Brototh, Asean Nations
I agree-- I said so in my post that it isn't impossible, however if we are to be "overly cautious" perhaps we should work some more on this bill so we actually have something that can get us somewhere.
Titanne, Asean Nations
Id be open to that. We can probably find other ways that Congress could issue bad types of law.
Brototh
I don't think it's fair to punish someone for doing a crime before it was a crime.
Neither do I, thats the point of banning ex post facto laws
If even you accept it's not fair then you are in contradiction about your earlier statement to my response, in which you stated that there was no definition to the word "fair".
You see, the court would simply be wrong to rule it's fair to punish a person for something they did before it was a crime, it simply is not.
As explained before this makes the bill useless, since it criminalises something which is currently already unconstitutional. Not only that, but even if it wasn't unconstitutional a new government wanting to pass laws for the two things this bill criminalises could simply repeal the bill and do the things anyway.
This is not something supposed to be regulated through law, it's bureaucracy which realistically does nothing.
Asean Nations
I agree with Cerdenia, Brototh and Catlin. If something wasn't a crime, before it became a crime, then the person who did the thing shouldn't be punished before the thing was made a crime.
Asean Nations
I have a definition of fair. Its not the same as yours, or Catlins, or Indian Geniuss, but I have one. What Im saying is that just because we think something wont happen, it doesnt mean it couldnt. I am going to be withdrawing this bill and making it more useful, like Brototh suggested.
Brototh, Asean Nations
BEGINNING OF DEBATE
Good morning Senators, in case you didnt see above, I have decided to withdraw my previous bill in order to rework it and to fix some issues that were brought up by my colleagues. In the meantime, we will be moving on to next item in the docket, the Criminal Hierarchy Act, also penned by me.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1302063
Debate will last for a minimum of 12 hours / as long as I see fit.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Creckelenney
Senators, please post your thoughts on this bill.
Oops, forgot about this bill.
Personally I think it's a fine idea and which will allow for a better structuring of our criminal system. I would like to make one suggestion however, and that is that we amend the bill to classify "Electoral Fraud" as a "High Felony", seeing as any attempt to sabotage Thaecian Democracy is a very very serious crime in my view.
Titanne, Asean Nations
Thank you for responding. Ill allow 6 more hours of debate, in case others want to respond, and then put that amendment to a vote.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Post self-deleted by Titanne.
AMENDMENT VOTING
[spoiler=Amendment A]Article IV
The following crimes will be established as felonies: electoral fraud and preventing the course of justice. The recommended punishment for felonies is removal from government office, an official court condemnation, and a cease and desist order. Should this order be violated, a felony will become a high felony.
Article V
The following crimes will be established as high felonies: doxxing, electoral fraud, blackmail and treason. The recommended punishment for high felonies is banjection. Should a citizen find away around said banjection, they will be banjected again.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Asean Nations
I vote aye.
Aye
Titanne
Aye
Titanne
aYE
Aye
Titanne
We now begin the vote on the amended version of the bill.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1314778
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Asean Nations
AYE
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
Aye
aye
The bill has passed unanimously.
Creckelenney will begin the House debate shortly.
After we move on to our next bill, the Thaecian University Act, is like to let everyone know that we will be calling Deppendants to the chamber as soon as we finish up Indian Geniuss bill.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1261956
Debate will last a minimum of 24 hours.
[spoiler=Senators]
Cerdenia[/spoiler]
Asean Nations
I would like to announce my resignation from the Senate. I have been diagnosed with Influenza A and might have cancer. My nation will be resting in the FNR for now. Thank you.
Brototh, Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Zon Island, Norgaardia, Marvinville
In general this bill is a mess and it's not well elaborated or written, personally I think this will be just another piece of bureaucracy which we keep up with for some time until we have trouble and eventually abandon the whole idea.
Plan to vote nay.
Brototh, Titanne
Id agree. I think that we should see what Antenion has planned and then maybe bring the concept back up. But this bill isnt well written, so Id like to see sweeping changes.
Cerdenia, Brototh
VOTE
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1261956
Please cast your vote on the above legislation.
[spoiler=Senators]
Brototh[/spoiler]
Brototh
Nay
Nay
Nay
Let me just say, it's deplorable how this government other than the Chairman makes no effort whatsoever into debating in this Senate. A coalition formed secretly, I guess it's only consistent that said coalition also keeps their platform and ideals for this Senate secret from the people. Heck I am literally on a trip I shouldn't be debating, yet I have been giving my opinions on the recent bills. What's the excuse of this coalition?
This is the reason the unicameralist movement grew to begin with, the Senate can never fulfill it's duties effectively.
Titanne, Norgaardia
Its not my fault that my caucus is not being responsive. Thank you for not including me in there. Ill say it again though, this coalition was formed just to get a good Chairman across, as you dont want it and obviously an Al0neForever one would have ended poorly. On a different note...
the bill has failed since apparently the author and his party dont feel like debating or voting on it. It has not achieved enough yes votes to pass and therefore fails.
ANNOUNCEMENT OF A HEARING
We will now move on to a ministerial hearing for Deppendants. I ask all Senators to ask the Hon. JM any questions they may have. A reminder to Deppendants that a failure to appear will result in strike one of two towards grounds for impeachment.
[spoiler=Senators]
Asean Nations[/spoiler]
Asean Nations
Deppendants, how do you plan to keep the Bar Association up to date on the latest laws and ordinances, given that most of the regions legal scholars passed the test before a lot of the most recent legislation was passed?
What reforms to the Justice system do you think would benefit the region?
Asean Nations
Simple question, seeing as historically speaking the Justice Ministry hasn't had all that much to do (and I don't blame the current Minister for that by the way), does the Minister have any current plans on how to bring activity to the Ministry? Perhaps also some project to get the people involved and interested in legal affairs?
Titanne, Asean Nations
Deppendants What is you approach to a court case
Titanne, Asean Nations
Senators, it appears I misinterpreted L.R. 002, but I dont see the point of re-opening business with less than a day left until the actual hearing, so if any one has any questions...
Do you have any comment, suggestion or concern Regarding any Acts on the Law Registry and are you open or should the Justice System be reformed?
If you have any ideas, do tell
If you don't have it's alright, It's understandable.
and I would like to re-ask the question of Chairman Titanne and Shadow Chairman Cerdenia
In order to pass the bar you need to read the Constitutution, Laws and High Court procedures. Perhaps the bar needs to be updated as the more new bills pass into law, The exam itself is deigned and run by chief justice Rhyssua.
I do not have plans for any sort of reform to the Ministry.
I do not. Having people interested in working for the ministry isn't a problem, there not being any cases where I can use them in is the issue.
I gather the evidence and information further investigate to find out more about the case if neccesary and share what I know with the members of the Justice Ministry who will review the information and decide of they want to take the case as either a Public Defender or Prosecutor. A Paralegal would act as an advisor helling either side prepare for their case.
If I find any issue with legislation or have any legal concernt I will notify Congress if neccesary as I have done once before.
The Bigtopia, Catlin, Asean Nations
What do you think, Deppendants? How can the Justice System be faster?
Deppendants if there was a change you can make to the judicial system what will it be
I've been requested by Senate Chairman Titanne to announce the hearing has been closed, as over 3 and a half days have already passed, we will now move on to the next order of business.
Emergency Ministerial Hearings Act - Debating
Author: Cerdenia
Sponsor: Cerdenia
[spoiler=Preamble]While acknowledging the good intentions behind L.R. 002 (Ministerial Hearings Act) to allow for the cabinet to be accountable to the legislature, this Congress also sees flaws in the legislation, which has historically speaking been ignored due to a difficulty and lack of necessity to keep it up in a regular basis. As such Congress seeks to replace the existing Ministerial Hearings Procedures with newer ones which allow Congress to summon Ministers to hearings when necessary in situations such as failures by a specific Minister or Regional Crisis, rather than having such dates fixed in law.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Article I: Repealing Existing Legislation]
Section I
This bill hereby repeals Legislative Resolution (L.R.) 002, the "Ministerial Hearings Act".[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Article II: Hearing Procedures]
Section I
Any Legislator may initiate a Motion to call any Cabinet Member to a Hearing before the chamber. Upon approval of this Motion by a majority of the Legislator's Chamber, the Speaker of the House/Chairman of the Senate is to communicate to the Cabinet Member a summoning before the determined chamber for a Hearing.
Section II
The time allotted to the Hearing shall be set at a base twenty-four hours. Legislators may propose a motion to increase the time limit of the Hearing by a minimum of 12 hours up to a maximum of 24 hours, time will be extended if the motion receives support of a majority of voting legislators.
Section III
During the Hearing, Legislators will put any questions they have towards the Cabinet Minister to answer. Questions must be relevant to the Cabinet Minister's duties, and not concern any other activities outside of it.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Article III: Failure to Comply and Legislative Restrictions]
Section I
Failure of a Minister to attend a Ministerial Hearing called by the legislature shall be considered an impeachable offence.
Section II
The House of Commons and the Senate shall be restricted to calling a minister up to a maximum of once per month each, with the House of Commons not being able to call the same Minister already called by the Senate on the same month and vice versa.[/spoiler]
______________________________________________________________________________________
Current ministerial hearings procedures are outdated and are never followed, for more justification read the preamble of this bill.
[spoiler=Senators]
Brototh[/spoiler]
Shadow Chairman of the Senate
Senator
Titanne, The Bigtopia, Asean Nations, Zanaana
I agree with this bill and wouldn't change anything to it.
Cerdenia, Titanne, The Bigtopia
Ill also support this bill. Thank you, Cerdenia, for filling in while I was busy.
Cerdenia, The Bigtopia
I also support this bill
But I have only one concern, that is:- what if the minister is not able to come to the hearing due to IRL reasons? If you think it practically, suppose there's your date on that date, so what comes to you first, NS, an online game in Internet or the lady which may become your life partner? An amendment may be required, Cerdenia. I have it as:-
Amendment to the bill
If the Minister who is called for the hearing is not able to come to it, s/he must inform the House of Commons/Senate beforehand and give the date s/he will be available on, and the chamber in which the hearing called, will have a vote that requires a simple majority to confirm the date.
Since our minimum debating time has been fulfilled and most senators have voiced opinions, we will now debate on the additional clause Indian Genius has proposed.
[spoiler=Senators]Indian Genius
Catlin[/spoiler]
What you propose may look good without thought, however putting effort into analysing it you can realise this can be abused by ministers to delay their own hearings when necessary. Plan to vote nay.
Titanne
a vote that requires a simple majority to confirm the date.
So what were saying with this is, the Chamber can just downright decline the date, even if its for IRL reasons? Seems a bit dodgy if you ask me.
The Bigtopia
Exactly my thoughts.
Wait a sec, the minister cannot. Because, as the chamber has to get a simple majority to change the date. If the Minister has appealed once and then again appeals to change the date, the chamber may not vote aye. After all, everyone is not dishonest, although everyone is not honest too. So, we should at least give a chance to the Minister, if s/he doesn't comes to the next hearing as well (s/he has to appeal for it), the chamber can vote nay. So, I am editing my amendment a little bit.
Amendment to the bill
If the Minister who is called for the hearing is not able to come to it, s/he must inform the House of Commons/Senate beforehand and give the date s/he will be available on, and the chamber in which the hearing called, will have a vote that requires 2/3rd Aye votes to confirm the date.
Is it okay now, fellows?
Nope, still a nay from me, solves nothing minister can still lie to delay his own hearing.
And by the way under our current system ministers are also technically required to come in specific dates, there was no system to change it and we never had a problem when the bill was properly enforced, will have even less of a problem now that the bill will make it so hearings only happen when called by the chamber, making them less frequent.
VOTING ON AMENDMENTS
Voting on Indian Genius attached amendment will last until I can legally close it.
If the Minister who is called for the hearing is not able to come to it, s/he must inform the House of Commons/Senate beforehand and give the date s/he will be available on, and the chamber in which the hearing called, will have a vote that requires 2/3rd Aye votes to confirm the date.
[spoiler=SENATORS]
[/spoiler]
Nay
I agree with the amendment
It's easy not to put the slightest effort into the debate and just saying you agree with the amendment...
Titanne, The Bigtopia
Nay
Aye
Aye
Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.