Post Archive

Region: The Thaecian Senate

History

Results:

Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Dykataar Hulldom The Helvetic Imperium

Nay (0)

Abstain (2) Cydoni World Trade

The motion to reduce the House by 4 seats, to a total of 11, has passed.

[spoiler=EC]

Taungu[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun voting on the motion introduced by Antenion to reduce the Senate by 2 seats, to a total of 7.

Aye

Marvinville

Aye

Ashlawn, Marvinville

Why is there no debate on this one? Why do we all want to rush this through?

Nay

Brototh

Aye

Ashlawn, Marvinville

I'm abstaining, precisely because of the following reason: we need a debate period on this motion even if no one answers. If there was a pressing "get this through for a referendum" reason, I'd get it, but otherwise, no.

Cerdenia, Brototh, Dendrobium

Point of Order Mr Chairman

Why have you opted to completely disregard debate and rush this motion through with no proper explanation? This is a big deal.

Ashlawn

Brototh, Dendrobium

Historically, reductions and expansions of either Chamber of Congress have always been paired with a bill or amendment legalising the change they bring. Those bills include all the necessities to define the debate, voting and referendum procedures- which are each essential to our democracy. While not entirely illegal, as from my brief research I did not find any indication this was necessary for the process, proposals of and by such bills is the moral and practical norm exactly to ensure important changes like this aren't introduced by simple motions, let alone simple motions without a debate!. If this reduction had been brought onto the Senate floor by the right and just way I may have voted aye, but since that is not the case, I vote NAY.

Cerdenia, Brototh

Senators, the motion has been sent to the debate stage by the order of the Chair.

[spoiler=Motion]

Reduce the Senate by 2 seats, to a total of 7.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (TPU)

Cerdenia (TF)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (IND)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

I honestly don't know what to say at this point. Parliamentary procedure, now am I not sure about our own procedure, dictates two things: something like this is blatantly dilatory unless the motion is changed and that the same motion cannot be debated twice in the same session. I'm in favor of reducing the Senate, but I will not do so in complete abandonment of any parliamentary procedure.

Cerdenia wrote:Point of Order Mr Chairman

Why have you opted to completely disregard debate and rush this motion through with no proper explanation? This is a big deal.

Ashlawn

Would the Chairman be interested in responding to the point of order as is required by law?

Cerdenia wrote:Point of Order Mr Chairman

Why have you opted to completely disregard debate and rush this motion through with no proper explanation? This is a big deal.

Ashlawn

The upcoming deadline required for a referendum to be held and for the House to vote on it and also the fact that I had been informed that Snowflame would be nominated as as Justice, which I believed would lead to the House not being able to do anything for the rest of the term.

Want to use of this debate stage to talk a bit about why I think another reduction before the Generals is an awful idea.

Recently Thaecia has gone through multiple by-elections and referenda, we had a by-election a few days ago, there was another one not long before which is the one I myself got elected, and of course some time before that there were also the Midterms back at the end of the year. Right now Thaecia is undergoing what I would like to call as "vote exhaustion", there are simply too many votes going on, and having another one right before the General Elections will just lower turnout and participation in the one vote that actually matters for the near future.

It is my opinion that our General Elections will be a lot worse if we continue holding more public votes right before it, and that's why I'm in opposition to this motion, while not necessarily opposed to the idea of another reduction being considered in the near future.

In my previous post here I already advocated some of my thoughts on the matter at hand. Reducing the Senate might not be a bad idea, however, as has been mentioned, rushing it as is being done at this moment most deffinitely is. Perhaps Cerdenia is right and squeezing another referendum right before the genelecs causes people to simply not vote or not even be interested in voting. Perhaps scheduling the referendum at the same time as the genelecs could be a solution, but that in turn may indirectly influence the way people choose to vote; and that is all not even keeping in mind this is all up to the EC to decide. The conclusion I make here is that this motion is not planned ideally.

So all of that leaves the question: What to do? I do believe, correct me if this assumption is wrong, a general majority of people here agree the Senate could do with a reduction, whether now or later. Most of us also agree, I again presume, that rushing something like this, considering my reasoning above, is a bad idea. That is why I suggest this proposal is tabled in the form of a formal bill à la L.R. 043 to be dealt with first thing next term, so all the right procedures are ensured, both voting and debating will happen, and so this topic both has certainty to be handled correctly and timely.

Senators, we have begun voting on the motion introduced by Antenion to reduce the Senate by 2 seats, to a total of 7.

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (TPU)

Cerdenia (TF)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (IND)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

Marvinville

Aye

Ashlawn, Marvinville

Abstain. The chair has made such an abject bungle of procedure on this that I cannot in good conscience vote for it-even though I am of the opinion that this ought to pass.

Aye

Edit: changing my vote to nay, It does feel like we are bending the rules a bit too much with this motion.

Brototh

Results:

Aye (2) Ashlawn World Trade

Nay (3) Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium

Abstain (4) Cydoni Dykataar Hulldom The Helvetic Imperium

The motion has failed

Senators, we have begun the confirmation hearing of Snowflame for Associate Justice.

Levantx

I would like to start by saying good morning and good afternoon to you all. I would like to thank Prime Minister Bigtopia for nominating me to the High Court and I would like to thank Chairman Ashlawn for holding my hearing.

Just to tackle a concern right now that I know will probably be asked. I will be leaving TFP and leaving it in the hands of Zon Island. I will not be involved with the party so I hope this eases some concerns.

Aside from that, I am looking forward to answering any questions that you all may have :)

Levantx, The Bigtopia, Dykataar

Congratulations Snowflame on your nomination. I look forward to this confirmation hearing.

My first question to you is as follows:

What do you hope to achieve in your term? Please be specific and detailed.

Snowflame

Dykataar wrote:Congratulations Snowflame on your nomination. I look forward to this confirmation hearing.

My first question to you is as follows:

What do you hope to achieve in your term? Please be specific and detailed.

Thank you for the question!

Well to start off with, I would like to work towards an active court. Recently in Thaecia, we've seen constant complaints against the Court for lack of activity whether that be in certifying election results or tackling cases. I will, and this is evident by my previous record, be an active member of the Court. I check discord everyday, I check NationStates everyday. When I am needed for something important, I will, without a doubt, be there.

I also want to assist with fixing the Court procedures which are incredibly outdated and, quite frankly, suck. Parts of them are unconstitutional and need to be fixed as soon as possible. And if the Senate chooses to confirm me, I will work with my fellow Justices to solve the issues we have with the procedures.

Levantx, The Bigtopia, Dykataar

Snowflame wrote:Thank you for the question!

Well to start off with, I would like to work towards an active court. Recently in Thaecia, we've seen constant complaints against the Court for lack of activity whether that be in certifying election results or tackling cases. I will, and this is evident by my previous record, be an active member of the Court. I check discord everyday, I check NationStates everyday. When I am needed for something important, I will, without a doubt, be there.

I also want to assist with fixing the Court procedures which are incredibly outdated and, quite frankly, suck. Parts of them are unconstitutional and need to be fixed as soon as possible. And if the Senate chooses to confirm me, I will work with my fellow Justices to solve the issues we have with the procedures.

Thank you for your answer.

A follow up question:

How do you plan to 'fix the Court'? Please be as detailed as possible.

Snowflame

This is a question from $tonks (my apologies, I'm unaware of his NS name)

"What, if anything, do you plan on doing about the issue of other justices being inactive?"

Snowflame

Dykataar wrote:Thank you for your answer.

A follow up question:

How do you plan to 'fix the Court'? Please be as detailed as possible.

By taking care of the problems that have not been solved. The Constitution mentions Deputy Justices, especially during the impeachment of a Justice, yet we do not have one. I do understand the issues we are having in Thaecia with filling positions, but I want to make sure that the Court is transparent about that. If I am on the Court, yet we still do not have a Deputy Justice, I would want the Court to say why rather than stay silent. There is no harm about being more open about what the Court has planned or is trying to do. Many times I have seen Thaecians confused as to what the Court is doing. Since no Justice responds to their confusion, that leads to constant questions in the Thaecia political Discord channel. In shorter words, I want the Court to be more transparent and I want us to at least be more open about plans for future Deputy Justices.

I also mentioned fixing the procedures, although I already touched upon it I will mention it again just to answer your question completely. Just to sort of rephrase my point in that area, I want to help my fellow Justices fix the procedures.

Dykataar wrote:This is a question from $tonks (my apologies, I'm unaware of his NS name)

"What, if anything, do you plan on doing about the issue of other justices being inactive?"

Well, I don't have power over what other people do or whether they are active. However, I can promise that I will be active. If we do have another incredibly bad case of inactivity, it would definitely be up to Congress to decide whether or not that warrants potential impeachment. But as a Justice, I will constantly check in with the other Justices in order to make sure that we are getting done with whatever needs to be accomplished.

The Bigtopia, Dykataar

Thank you for your detailed answer Snowflame, I really appreciate it. I have one last question for you at this time:

What are your thoughts on the following: (a) decrease the amount of people selected into the Judiciary Branch and (b) limiting the term of members in the Judicial Branch

Snowflame

Snowflame do you believe that lower courts should be established? If so, why?

Snowflame

Ashlawn wrote:Snowflame do you believe that lower courts should be established? If so, why?

Well, that is an issue that is completely up to Congress and the Constitution does give Congress the power to do that under Article 3, Section 3. I do appreciate the question, but as a Justice my job is mainly to interpret laws and the Constitution. Giving my opinion on lower courts would be me attempting to influence legislation from the bench, something I do not want to do nor do I want that to be seen as the purpose of a Justice.

Dykataar wrote:Thank you for your detailed answer Snowflame, I really appreciate it. I have one last question for you at this time:

What are your thoughts on the following: (a) decrease the amount of people selected into the Judiciary Branch and (b) limiting the term of members in the Judicial Branch

These are also questions that would involve me giving my opinion on potential legislation and executive decisions and I do not want to influence that. If Congress ever decides that Justices should no longer serve life terms, then they would need to pass a Constitutional Amendment changing Article 3, Section 1, Sub-section 5.

I hope you all understand why I am not willing to give my opinion and the reasoning is to maintain the nonbiased nature of the Court.

Levantx, The Bigtopia

Snowflame

While I'm certain of the experience of the nominee as a politician, and also of his activity, I wonder based on previous conversations if he has the necessary experience in the legal area.

Nominee, could you please detail what your experience with regional law is, and why you believe you have the necessary legal experience to be a Justice?

Snowflame, The Bigtopia

Cerdenia wrote:Snowflame

While I'm certain of the experience of the nominee as a politician, and also of his activity, I wonder based on previous conversations if he has the necessary experience in the legal area.

Nominee, could you please detail what your experience with regional law is, and why you believe you have the necessary legal experience to be a Justice?

That is a very fair question and definitely something that should be touched upon.

Throughout my time in Thaecia since I joined back in 2019, I have been elected as a MP more times than I can count and I have been a senator. During that very extensive amount of time, I have debated and interpreted laws whether that be in the chambers of Congress or through DMs. Despite these positions being "political", they still involve interpretation as that is what creates the framework for new bill ideas, amendment ideas, or Constitutional Amendment ideas.

Even recently, many MPs have come to me with potential bill ideas only for me to point out that certain parts were unconstitutional and I quoted direct parts of the Constitution to support that. When Marv was a Justice, I even asked him to verify my interpretations.

As there are not many "legal" positions in Thaecia (if I am getting correct how you used the word legal), aside from the High Court and certain ministries, it's best to also take into account that the political positions I have been in have required me to interpret many different aspects with laws and to know the Constitution.

Levantx, The Bigtopia, The Islamic Country Of Honour

I would ask, as my only question, this: You have expressed your desire, Snowflame, to create an "Active Court"; how would you foster activity on the Court without overstepping, either by perception or otherwise, the Court's authority?

Snowflame

Hulldom wrote:I would ask, as my only question, this: You have expressed your desire, Snowflame, to create an "Active Court"; how would you foster activity on the Court without overstepping, either by perception or otherwise, the Court's authority?

As I explained to Senator Dykataar, I cannot control what the other Justices do, however I can 100% control what I do. If confirmed, I want to talk to Justices Lemon and Rayekka and I want to discuss some ideas that I have that I feel would lead to a more transparent and active Court. And when I say I want to do these things, let me clarify one thing, I'm not going to "solo" these ideas or overstep what the Court says. Whether these ideas develop, and I hope they do, depends on the current Justices. This would be a team effort and I'm sure it'll be seen as such.

And if the Court rejects my ideas, then I'm not going to overstep or ignore what they want. But if the Court ends up going through what happened recently, I can guarantee that I will be active.

Hulldom, The Bigtopia

Senators, we have begun voting on Snowflame's nomination for Associate Justice.

Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (TPU)

Cerdenia (IND)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

Post self-deleted by Dendrobium.

Results:

Aye (9) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Cydoni Dendrobium Dykataar Hulldom The Helvetic Imperium World Trade

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

Snowflame has been confirmed as Associate Justice.

Senators, we have begun debate on the Amendments to LR 022.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1500205

I don't like the clause about the Prime Minister being able to sack the EC, but other than that this is a fine amendment.

I agree with Cerd. I feel that the PM should not be able to fire the EC. Therefore I'd like to introduce the following Amendment.

[spoiler=Amendment A]

Changes Article 8 Section 2.1 to say:

The punishment for violation will be left to the discretion of the High Court; however, it will be mandated for the Electoral Commissioner to step down or for the Prime Minister to sack them if they are found to be in violation of this law, in addition to whatever punishment is deemed fit by the Thaecian High Court.

[/spoiler]

A good Amendment I am honestly surprised to find had not yet been included. I would like to add a simple Amendment though, being the following:

[spoiler=Amendment B:]

1.2 A ballot being made public shall be defined as the following: "disclosure of any ballot information in such a manner that could provide indication to the identity of an individual voter to any individual who is not presently serving as Electoral Commissioner, an Assistant Electoral Commissioner, or a Thaecian High Court Justice, unrelated to their positions as part of the confirmation of the electoral process";

[/spoiler]

Would this part not be included, it leaves room for such information to be shared or revealed to a person with these roles while the sharing of the information is not necessary. For example, the EC might tell a Justice all about the way one person voted to such an extent it can no longer be considered as a part of the electoral process, or even revealing such information outside an election period of any kind. Hopefully my wording makes sense, I don't know a better way to phrase it, but my point, I believe, is clear.

Senators, we have begun voting on the following Amendments.

[spoiler=Amendment A]

Changes Article 8 Section 2.1 to say:

The punishment for violation will be left to the discretion of the High Court; however, it will be mandated for the Electoral Commissioner to step down or for the Prime Minister to sack them if they are found to be in violation of this law, in addition to whatever punishment is deemed fit by the Thaecian High Court.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Amendment B]

1.2 A ballot being made public shall be defined as the following: "disclosure of any ballot information in such a manner that could provide indication to the identity of an individual voter to any individual who is not presently serving as Electoral Commissioner, an Assistant Electoral Commissioner, or a Thaecian High Court Justice, unrelated to their positions as part of the confirmation of the electoral process";

[/spoiler]

Aye to both

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

Original Bill: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1500205

We have now begun voting on the final bill as amended:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=dendrobium/detail=factbook/id=1512034

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

My vote is Aye

Results:

Aye (8) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Dykataar Hulldom The Helvetic Imperium World Trade

Nay (0)

Abstain (1) Cydoni

The bill has passed and will be sent to the House.

[spoiler=Speaker]

Marvinville[/spoiler]

Senators, we have begun debate on the Thaecia Indictable Offenses Act 2021 as amended.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1505741

Indian Genius, Brototh

Is there any record of the House's amendments? (Not that I think it would sway my vote, but I would like to see them.)

Hulldom wrote:Is there any record of the House's amendments? (Not that I think it would sway my vote, but I would like to see them.)

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=42766304

Amendment A removes OOC information, you cannot define OOC within IC. If we include doxxing as an IC crime, that means that anyone who is caught doxxing has to go to trial in the Court. Yeah, no, we'd just ban them immediately.

Amendment B changes a slight wording issue

Amendment C adds spamming and blackmail. Very well needed.

Amendment D adds unlawful representation. Someone may be unlawfully representing the region in a way that isn't treasonous, or not directly going out of their way to be treasonous, or even in a way that is not specifically defined, so very well needed amendment.

Amendment E adds how long someone can be punished for under the procedures defined in this law. Great article.

Amendment F is just a simple renumbering as Amendment E added a new article.

Hulldom

Brototh wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=42766304

Amendment A removes OOC information, you cannot define OOC within IC. If we include doxxing as an IC crime, that means that anyone who is caught doxxing has to go to trial in the Court. Yeah, no, we'd just ban them immediately.

Amendment B changes a slight wording issue

Amendment C adds spamming and blackmail. Very well needed.

Amendment D adds unlawful representation. Someone may be unlawfully representing the region in a way that isn't treasonous, or not directly going out of their way to be treasonous, or even in a way that is not specifically defined, so very well needed amendment.

Amendment E adds how long someone can be punished for under the procedures defined in this law. Great article.

Amendment F is just a simple renumbering as Amendment E added a new article.

Thanks Brototh! All of these sound fine to me.

We have started voting on the Thaecia Indictable Offenses Act 2021 as amended.

My vote is Aye

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1505741

This is finally working!

Aye!

Brototh

Results:

Aye (9) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Cydoni Dendrobium Dykataar Hulldom The Helvetic Imperium World Trade

Nay (0)

Abstain (0)

The bill has passed

Senators, we have begun debate on The White Laurel Act as amended.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1501241

The Bigtopia is permitted to speak on the Floor and I am sponsoring Islonia.

Indian Genius, Dykataar

Post self-deleted by Dykataar.

Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honourable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognises they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstreches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fufill Article I Seciont I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honours. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)

Levantx, Ashlawn, World Trade, Pap Sculgief, Cerdenia, Indian Genius, Dykataar

The concerns of Islonia have been heard, and while I don't agree with everything said, there are also some concerns I have myself. The most prominent of which being: why do we need this? Litterally all tasks laid out in this bill could be taken on or excecuted by the PM, MoFA, President or SoD, so why create yet another position that will hold a very limited set of tasks itself and take away an integral part of the tasks of the positions listed above? In other cases like this I might have said something like "there is no need for it but it does not do any harm", but even that is not the case here! This act would actively diminish other positions within the Excecutive branch, and besides that leaves room for many loopholes! One of those loopholes has already been pointed out by Islonia, but another is that while the SoD is tasked with providing information and justification on it's actions to the Legislative, the WLD can basically do whatever. Sure, it would still need support of the SoD with most things, but that simply redirects to my previous point. A silly bill with serious consequences which I will probably vote against.

Ashlawn, Islonia, Indian Genius, Dykataar

I am sponsoring Brototh to speak on the Senate Floor.

Islonia wrote:[spoiler=Islonia's Response]Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honorable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognizes they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstretches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fulfill Article I Section I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honors. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)[/spoiler]

Thank you, Islonia, for voicing these concerns. While I do not agree with you first point, your second point does strike concern in my eyes as well. As I will say in response to Honorable Senator Dendrobium, I don't believe the White Laurel Act is necessary and it severely stretches our manpower in the Executive Branch. As a semi-isolationist semi-gloablist, there are many issues within our own region that we need to highlight and fix before we move onto extensive Foreign Affairs.

Dendrobium wrote:[spoiler=Dendrobium's Response] The concerns of Islonia have been heard, and while I don't agree with everything said, there are also some concerns I have myself. The most prominent of which being: why do we need this? Literally all tasks laid out in this bill could be taken on or executed by the PM, MoFA, President or SoD, so why create yet another position that will hold a very limited set of tasks itself and take away an integral part of the tasks of the positions listed above? In other cases like this I might have said something like "there is no need for it but it does not do any harm", but even that is not the case here! This act would actively diminish other positions within the Executive branch, and besides that leaves room for many loopholes! One of those loopholes has already been pointed out by Islonia, but another is that while the SoD is tasked with providing information and justification on it's actions to the Legislative, the WLD can basically do whatever. Sure, it would still need support of the SoD with most things, but that simply redirects to my previous point. A silly bill with serious consequences which I will probably vote against.[/spoiler]

Thank you, Honorable Senator Dendrobium for your response. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I don't see any point for The White Laurel Act to be passed at this time, and if it were to be passed it would be under the constant scrutiny of amendments due to situational loopholes.

Islonia, Indian Genius, Dendrobium

Islonia wrote:[spoiler]Thank you for sponsoring me to talk Mister Chairman.

Honourable Senators, I believe a majority of you already know my stance ont his law. The White Laurel Act is a bill that;

1, breaches the separation of powers. Indeed this act is a bill, and therefore a subject discussed solely by the legislature. Yet TWLA's whole purpose is to establish an institution within the executive. By doing this the legislator recognises they are violating the executive's integrity by forcing upon current and future administrations a body they may not wish to have. When in a republic the citizenry elects the head of state and head of government, the legislature should know to keep off their affairs, as it is the whole citizenry's right to decide on executive policy, and not only the right of their representatives to another section of government. It is to me unethical if not outright obstruction of executive duties for the legislature to impose on the executive specific departments to have under a specific ministry, especially when said department is not an essential one (like recruitment for example).

2, overstreches the executive's resources. As of today we have a government which's low manpower issue has been there for so long that we've been facing for some time now a lack of experienced individuals to fill important positions in government. The fact that the legislature itself chose to expand to such high number of representatives in reach chambers did not help at all. How could be fufill Article I Seciont I: "The White Laurel shall be established under the office of the Prime Minister with a mission to meet the needs of other regions." while we are unable to meet our region's own needs?

Furthermore, Article II - Section 4 read as: "The White Laurel Director can serve in any other position, except Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister, while being the White Laurel Director." is an issue waiting to be created, as it restricts the Director from being MoFA or Prime Minister yet does not prevent them from holding any other ministerial/elected position. This creates a contradiction with L.R.004 Position Restrictions Act's Article III Section I: "The Ministers in charge of Domestic Affairs; Foreign Affairs; Legal Affairs; Culture; and any future ones created, shall only be allowed to hold their position as minister. Ministers may not be allowed to occupy 2 ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to be apart of the House of Commons or the Senate. Ministers may not be allowed to hold the position of Deputy Minister in any other Ministry, but may hold lesser ministerial roles in other ministries. Ministers may not be allowed to participate in any position of government not listed above."

Thank you for reading me your honours. I will answer anything you have to say about my points. :)[/spoiler]

I would just like to speak against some of the things you said here. Your first point being that this breaches the separation of powers, of which I disagree with. By that logic, any bill creating a ministry, or legislating in that ministry, such as the Military Commission Act, which requires a military force to be established, a bill that I know you have defended in the past, would be a breach of the separation of powers.

This bill causes no problem for the Executive- while it can, I agree, be formed by the whim of the PM/Pres- which I'll get on to- in fact, creating a force to assist other regions in a non-military way is a good idea. I respect the authority of the government to create her own departments and institutions, but we are entering what can be a dark phase of setting a precedent where the PM can select ministers and such by completely cutting out the House and just calling them secretaries. It is a good idea to have departments and ministries to be legislated, through law or directly to the Constitution, as I fear what will happen is that we will just start making everything secretariats and completely cutting out ministries. I highly doubt you would be in opposition to a civilian aid force, I assume you may even support it, considering it is just made as a nice thing to do- the issue is if we cut out this bill and decide to make it, we start setting the dangerous precedent that the House is just the middle man to be cut out [applies also if we switch confirmations to the Senate].

Secondly, I haven't got a clue what you're saying when this overstretches the govt's resources. This is a volunteer organisation, and as we have established anyone can be Director, as long as they aren't MoFA or Prime Minister. It is a volunteer organisation that does not require a single dedicated job, so there is no over stretching of resources. This isn't a matter of not "being able to meet our region's needs"- a statement I inherently disagree with, but that's a different debate- as this is not a restricted job. I come onto that in the next paragraph.

Finally, Your issue you raised is a fault of LR 004, which is being raised in the Thaecia Reform Act. Logically, though, if this bill specifically states that anyone can be Director [sans MoFA and PM], anyone can do it, which should make this an exception to LR 004. That is dangerous territory to get into, though, however your fault you raise is a fault with a completely separate law.

I won't air my support/discontent with this bill, I think my view on it is pretty obvious, I simply came to show what I disagree with Islonia. Either way, vote for Islonia as Prime Minister, he is amazing :p

Islonia, Indian Genius, The Bigtopia

Brototh wrote:snip

I should've made it more clear that "1." was a philosophical view of separation of powers and not a legal one. Legally I do agree we should have basic ministries (Legal, Domestic, Foreign affairs; constitutional ministries as of today) enforced because they need to be regulated: it's better to have the government control the military than have it a private organisation that could risk the region's security. However this means we should also have failsafes to be sure such ministries do actually work and not simply slack off. Another bill to write maybe? Who knows. Nevertheless, I firmly stand against organisations like TWL which simply are departments and not ministries, effectively tying up the minister's own agenda by forcing a voluntary (so not even legally obliged to exist - which just defeats the whole purpose of having a law about it). Afterall if citizens do volunteer then they can simply propose their services to the government. It's never been said anywhere any Foreign Affairs Minister would reject citizen initiatives.

Also the "dark phase" as you call it can easily be regulated. After all, it is constitutionally mandated to have three ministries(Legal, Domestic, Foreign affairs), further legally mandated to have one more ministry (Culture), and further constitutionally mandated to have one secretary (Roleplay). I see no dark age here. If your worry is that said mandated positions could be bypassed by the nomination of a secretary, this can be easily rendered null and void by a court ruling. After all it is obvious such action would be in violation of the (supreme) law by creating a position of lesser value (because not legally defined as a ministry) to occupy the duties of a mandated one (which mandate would by the way not even be fulfilled). I also believe having secretaries or any non-legally defined positions only withholding organisational power (Deputy Prime Minister comes to mind here) as an option to create test positions to either trial an idea or trial an individual is one good way for the executive to give less experienced people a chance to shine or simply to have more specialised individuals able to cover specific areas of government work.

As for the issue with LR004 it's just me raising points in front of the legislator that comes to mind before I forget it. Though I still see an issue with not allowing the MoFA or PM to serve the position because what if they'd like to do so? It's not like it'd have any effect on "[person] has too much power!!"

Senators, we have begun voting on The White Laurel Act as amended.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1501241

Nay

[spoiler=Senators]

Antenion (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Cydoni (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Hulldom (LPT)

The Helvetic Imperium (IND)

World Trade (LPT)[/spoiler]

I would like to inform the Senate Chairman that I change my vote from Abstain to Nay

Results:

Aye (1) Hulldom

Nay (5) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Dykataar

Abstain (3) Cydoni The Helvetic Imperium World Trade

The bill has failed.

Due to the approaching Senate Election, as per Senate Procedures, the Senate is now in recess. It's been a pleasure working with all of you and to those who are leaving the chamber I wish you luck. To the rest of you I hope to see you next term.

Hulldom, Brototh, Dendrobium, Dykataar

U guys are all bad

I legally can't post here xD loved working with y'all

Brototh wrote:I legally can't post here xD loved working with y'all

S U P R E S S

ORRRRRRRR-DAHHHHHH!!!

Swearing in of Senators;

Congratulations to all Senators-elect! Here's to a great term and a wonderful journey where your time takes you!

Senators-elect, please take the following oath to be inaugurated into the chamber:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

[spoiler=Senators-elect]Antenion (IND)

Ashlawn (IND)

Cerdenia (IND)

Dendrobium (SOL)

Dykataar (NTN)

Ermica (TCU)

Hulldom (IND)

Pap Sculgief (IND)

Toerana V (IND)

[/spoiler]

- Taungu

Electoral Commissioner of Thaecia

Antenion, Andusre, Toerana V

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

Taungu, Ashlawn, Pap Sculgief, Antenion, Andusre, Dendrobium

I do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

Taungu, Ashlawn, Antenion, Andusre, Dendrobium

I do solemnly affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

Taungu, Ashlawn, Pap Sculgief, Antenion, Andusre, Dendrobium

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

Taungu, Pap Sculgief, Antenion, Andusre, Dendrobium

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

Taungu, Ashlawn, Antenion, Andusre

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of Thaecia against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

Taungu, Ashlawn, Dendrobium

Assembled with Dot's Region Saver.
Written by Refuge Isle.